Spirit TA

[Lear70]

Unfortunately, that's not exactly true. There is another way for a company to get the courts involved in the Section 6 process: allegations of bad-faith bargaining. The company can go to federal court and claim that the union is negotiating in bad faith, which is a violation of the RLA. The NMB doesn't rule on those things, the courts do. It's entirely possible that a judge would issue a preliminary injunction barring any self-help until after the case can be heard in court, which could delay another strike for quite some time.

Well, first, I don't believe that's EVER happened in the history of airline negotiations under the RLA. There's no established case law, nor trigger points, nor litmus test for that to happen.

Second, that's an awfully large burden of proof to carry in a court of law, and about as likely as carrying the same argument as if the union were to sue the company for the same allegation. We all know how THOSE legal battles have played out...

In other words: not possible under the current circumstances. The Spirit MEC has conducted their bargaining as honestly and directly as possible. If the pilots vote it down, it won't be under "bad faith bargaining" from their representative unit.

Now, with that said, I don't think that's the main concern. There is a far greater likelihood of a PEB than there is of court action. And although everyone here wants to dismiss it, a PEB is not at all out of the question for Spirit. While it's true that the NMB would not recommend a PEB to the White House for Spirit under normal circumstances, a second strike within a few weeks is not normal circumstances, and I think it's quite possible, maybe even likely, that the President would issue a PEB to at least slow things down for another month. Two strikes at the same airline within weeks is very bad for politics.

I highly doubt it. Political or not (and I certainly agree with you on the political ramifications), there's just not enough of an impact on air travel to appoint a PEB.

By the time the voting is complete, it will be more like a couple of MONTHS, not just "a few weeks", between shut downs. More than likely, the MEC will have to go to the company with the issues, issue another deadline for a strike, and try to negotiate another agreement.

I personally hope they DON'T do that, simply because of our work to get released at AAI, but like I said, I wouldn't vote for the T.A. they have... they gave up too much (they only really got COLA raises after the 150% overtime loss and Scope sucks). I don't like having to fly 90 hours to get the yearly income I believe is appropriate for my experience level... my family is more important to me.

We'll see how they vote... like I said, I think it will pass, but I believe it'll be close.

 

[lostplnetairman]

I personally hope they DON'T do that, simply because of our work to get released at AAI, but like I said, I wouldn't vote for the T.A. they have... they gave up too much (they only really got COLA raises after the 150% overtime loss and Scope sucks). I don't like having to fly 90 hours to get the yearly income I believe is appropriate for my experience level... my family is more important to me.

We'll see how they vote... like I said, I think it will pass, but I believe it'll be close.

So how should the scope clause read? What's AirTran's?

 

[Shrek]

Didn't you leave Spirit to go to United? A United captain tops out at 138 an hour with a crappy pref bidding system and no 4 days off. At DOS a Spirit Captain will top out at $151.67 and after 4 years will top out at $185.32

Not knocking United..but don't tell us to vote NO for a contract that puts our captains at 34% higher than the airline you went to.

I would also guarantee that the Spirit scheduling section is much better than United's scheduling section. Can you bid a conflict and get an extra 6 days off pay protected (our TA allows that), are you guaranteed 4 days off?, does your scheduling system allow you to convert a week of vacation into 3 weeks. I also love our new bid options and reserve system. Can United release you from reserve early into rest? (Our TA prohibits that). Can United junior assign you while you are at the airport (Our TA prohibits that). Do you guys have line bidding or pref bidding?

Honestly...I could go on and on...so tell me all the things you like in the United scheduling section that we don't have at Spirit.

Yes I did go to United to be closer to my family.

I surely didn't go to UAL because of the post bankruptcy contract or scheduling section. And yes, I expect alot more out of UAL's next contract..........among many other improvements.

I enjoyed my time at Spirit - at least the people I was exposed to.

 

[Shrek]

Sorry, everytime I met him all he did was complain about Spirit. That was my experience.

I seriously doubt that. I may have shared opinions on what could be better or what I would change but complaining?! - nah not a sour grapes kind of guy. And to the people that actually know me would vouch for that.

Nevertheless - I have stated my opinion on the TA.

 

[flyboycmsu]

I'll vouch for you

 

[Lear70]

Scope was one of the primary platforms that we killed T.A.'s 1 and 2 on a few years ago at AirTran.

The pilots have told the MEC, in no uncertain language, that Scope is a non-starter. We've seen our flying outsourced during this contract, and won't let it continue.

Like I said early on in this discussion, you need to cap Scope NOW... while management isn't that interested in doing an end run around your pilots. Much easier to fix it now (before the camel's nose is under the tent) than in your NEXT contract when you're already farming out flying...

Those who don't learn from history...

 

[lostplnetairman]

This is the third time I've asked.

What should the scope clause say?

 

[CosmoKramer]

This is the third time I've asked.

What should the scope clause say?

Give him some time, geesh...His quality of life is not as good as yours.....

 

[Lear70]

This is the third time I've asked.

What should the scope clause say?

It's only the 2nd time I've seen you ask.

Scope should do 3 things:

1. Not allow ANYONE else to fly your routes under any kind of ticket sold by, printed by, or having the logo of, Spirit Airlines for more than 90 days TOTAL by that airline in any 3 year time period. This means no "code-shares", "joint marketing ventures", or any other arrangement that has another airline flying Spirit passengers. In ANY seat configuration. Jets, turboprops, whatever. NOTHING.

Keeping it locked to 90 days in any 3 year time period prevents any kind of "seasonal shift" to an RJ market once a year, then back to mainline equipment. We've seen companies try that one, too. You have to give them a little leeway to try out a new market or fleet type if they want, but 90 days is plenty to see whether it's cost effective or not. If it is, they put Spirit planes and pilots on the routes. If it's not, they abandon it and don't go back for a few years.

2. Disallow any kind of "wet lease" or even "dry lease" of your aicraft for anything more than 30 days and make sure they can't do the same thing seasonally as mentioned above by limiting how often they can do it yearly, bi-yearly, etc. Seasonal furloughs suck. Just ask Sun Country.

3. Bind the holding company. Doesn't do ANY good to lock down Scope just to have the parent company / holding company do an end run around it like Pinnacle is doing right now with Colgan, just to name one. To be honest, I don't know what Spirit's ownership is set up under being a privately-held company, but if it's a subsidiary of another company, you have to bind the holding company or Scope is worthless, we have established case law for that.

Without those things, you can just about guarantee they will start farming stuff out when you get to a certain size. Only Southwest and JetBlue haven't and the latter doesn't need to; they have RJ's. Nearly EVERY other airline has done it. Learn from history...

Give him some time, geesh...His quality of life is not as good as yours.....

You have NO idea... I just finished an 18 hour duty day taking 2 deceased soldiers home to their families. You can't begin to imagine what kind of suffering their families go through.

Yes, I'm drinking heavily. Going on 3 years in grievance process and working on Month 6 after arbitration waiting for results... Oh yeah, did I mention you need expedited grievance language moving ALL termination grievances to the front of the line? :/

 

[Beetle007]

Scope was one of the primary platforms that we killed T.A.'s 1 and 2 on a few years ago at AirTran.

The pilots have told the MEC, in no uncertain language, that Scope is a non-starter. We've seen our flying outsourced during this contract, and won't let it continue.

The AirTran contract was amendable in September 2005! You might have turned down two TAs...how has that worked out?

AirTran has continued to outsource and they haven't given the pilots a pay raise. Seems like the company is in a win win situation (outsource and no pay raises).

The best thing that can happen for Airtran pilots is to get released into self help. If Spirit pilots reject that TA that the NMB worked hard to put together, I imagine the NMB will be likely to release another ALPA group. If Spirit pilots go on a second strike, I don't think you will see another ALPA group get released for a long time. It is very important that ALPA remains in favor with the NMB so that ALPA can continue pattern bargaining and get pay raises for all pilots in the industry (not just Spirit).

 

[CosmoKramer]

If Spirit pilots reject that TA that the NMB worked hard to put together, I imagine the NMB will be likely to release another ALPA group.

Yes, I agree with that logic.

 

[Beetle007]

lol...you got me. Here is what I mean't to say:

"If Spirit pilots reject that TA that the NMB worked hard to put together, I imagine the NMB will be LESS likely to release another ALPA group."

 

[CX880]

Did Spirit get a good TA or what?

 

[Mike man]

lol...you got me. Here is what I mean't to say:

"If Spirit pilots reject that TA that the NMB worked hard to put together, I imagine the NMB will be LESS likely to release another ALPA group."

We rejected binding arbitration...why did the NMB work so hard to put it together?

 

[Lear70]

The AirTran contract was amendable in September 2005! You might have turned down two TAs...how has that worked out?

AirTran has continued to outsource and they haven't given the pilots a pay raise. Seems like the company is in a win win situation (outsource and no pay raises).

EXACTLY my point. Thank you for making it for me.

Right now it's hard to lock down Scope at AirTran because management WANTS to outsource some of our flying. Right now, Spirit DOES NOT, so take advantage of it by negotiating SOLID Scope protections BEFORE you need them.

Don't get caught in the same, nasty cycle that everyone else has... Have some VISION and FIX IT BEFORE IT'S A PROBLEM!

The best thing that can happen for Airtran pilots is to get released into self help. If Spirit pilots reject that TA that the NMB worked hard to put together, I imagine the NMB will be likely to release another ALPA group. If Spirit pilots go on a second strike, I don't think you will see another ALPA group get released for a long time. It is very important that ALPA remains in favor with the NMB so that ALPA can continue pattern bargaining and get pay raises for all pilots in the industry (not just Spirit).

Yes, you're absolutely right. It very well *could* make our lives at AirTran more difficult (and, at this point, the quickest way for me to get back to AirTran is a strike - it looks as if the arbitrator may be waiting to see if my grievance resolves itself through hostage reinstatement in negotiations).

However, my personal issues AND my airline's issues aside, I'm more interested in the Spirit pilots getting a GOOD contract, even though it might make AirTran take longer to get released. I put a target on my back not only for the good of myself and my fellow pilots, but also for the profession as a whole.

I could be disingenuous and say "Oh it's a GREAT contract, ratify it!", ignoring all the issues, just so we (AirTran) can get to OUR goals faster, but that just wouldn't be right. In the same token, even though I've had MULTIPLE requests to nitpick your new T.A. section by section like I did to our last two T.A.'s at AirTran (it's something I'm good at), I've declined because it's not my airline.

I want the Spirit pilots to do what's right by them. I *HOPE* it will also be something that benefits our industry and profession, but that remains to be seen. As such, I will simply say that I wouldn't vote for it, but still think it will pass there by a very slim margin.

Wishing nothing but the best for the Spirit pilots; in the end, it's your battle, you know it best, and I'll be here to support you back on the picket line if for some reason it gets voted down, and will again suggest you tell your MEC to lock down Scope. (IMHO, if Scope had been nailed down and you didn't get rid of the 150% overtime pay, this probably would have passed by a landslide - without them, as I said, I think it'll be close).

 

[flyboycmsu]

(IMHO, if Scope had been nailed down and you didn't get rid of the 150% overtime pay, this probably would have passed by a landslide - without them, as I said, I think it'll be close).

From a Spirit guy I couldn't agree more!

 

[bubbers44]

Has any body gone to a roadshow going on this week? Any thoughts?

 

[lostplnetairman]

Yes. Yes but it's a Spirit pilot decision and I'm not going to participate in further discussions on the Internet. There's a lot of misinformation on the Internet!

 

[CosmoKramer]

Oh man, once again, NK is in self-help, they are not in the mediation process. This is not an arbitrated TA. What about the NMB being pissed that the company bargained in bad faith for years? NK did not even give salary numbers until June 11. If the TA gets voted down, it will be like the clock is at 0001 June 12. We are legally allowed to strike if warranted. Give the company a short time frame to improve the TA or GO ON STRIKE, you don't need a wilson poll to figure it out.

1. ESOP-don't you want a part of the IPO?
2. keep 150%
3. increase payrate especially DOS year
4. increase signing bonus. 15k across the board will work

Worst case scenario, the NMB forms a PEB and blocks the strike. I think the chances of that are extremely slim. Government interference with a company that is profitable and compensates it's pilots less than other pilots who fly the same aircraft is a longshot. This is not Chrysler. Obama didn't just bail us out.

Vote you conscience. If you think NK will shut the doors than vote yes. If you want a chance to get a fair contract, vote NO. It's going to sting when we don't get a share of the IPO. Since our sweat has built this place.

 

[PCL_128]

The AirTran contract was amendable in September 2005! You might have turned down two TAs...how has that worked out?

Although I would never encourage you to vote down your TA, I will say that very few people here at AirTran regret voting down our TA. Even guys that voted in favor of it look back and realize that it was absolutely horrendous. We made the right decision, despite the three additional years we've waited for a new contract.