Spirit TA

[Lear70]

Pref bidding sucks if the pairings suck.

Be VERY, VERY careful about Pref Bidding and make sure trigger points are there for you to yank it if they start jacking your schedules around. Been there, done that, have that t-shirt.

/soapbox

 

[Beetle007]

After that, the Spirit pilots can strike again. The statement saying the contract will be decided in court is complete B.S. and dead wrong. The courts are done and out of the picture unless there is a violation of the RLA.

How about this...our ALPA Laywer representing us during negotiations said the courts would look at the TA and costs of the strike and the court might give us a worse contract.

Either way we are screwed if we vote no. Either we have a horrible ALPA laywer representing us during negotiations. Or, he is correct and we will be screwed in the court sytem.

 

[Beetle007]

Pref bidding sucks if the pairings suck.

Be VERY, VERY careful about Pref Bidding and make sure trigger points are there for you to yank it if they start jacking your schedules around. Been there, done that, have that t-shirt.

/soapbox

Spirit pilots said 2 years ago that we wouldn't even discuss pref bidding. We are sticking with line bidding.

 

[Lear70]

How about this...our ALPA Laywer representing us during negotiations said the courts would look at the TA and costs of the strike and the court might give us a worse contract.

Either way we are screwed if we vote no. Either we have a horrible ALPA laywer representing us during negotiations. Or, he is correct and we will be screwed in the court sytem.

I'm still confused.

Exactly HOW will you end up in court to determine your contract? The ONLY way that's possible inside the confines of the RLA is in an 1113(c) filing in bankruptcy.

Not exactly sure where you're getting your information, but it's erroneous in the extreme...

 

[lostplnetairman]

Didn't you leave Spirit to go to United? A United captain tops out at 138 an hour with a crappy pref bidding system and no 4 days off. At DOS a Spirit Captain will top out at $151.67 and after 4 years will top out at $185.32

Not knocking United..but don't tell us to vote NO for a contract that puts our captains at 34% higher than the airline you went to.

I would also guarantee that the Spirit scheduling section is much better than United's scheduling section. Can you bid a conflict and get an extra 6 days off pay protected (our TA allows that), are you guaranteed 4 days off?, does your scheduling system allow you to convert a week of vacation into 3 weeks. I also love our new bid options and reserve system. Can United release you from reserve early into rest? (Our TA prohibits that). Can United junior assign you while you are at the airport (Our TA prohibits that). Do you guys have line bidding or pref bidding?

Honestly...I could go on and on...so tell me all the things you like in the United scheduling section that we don't have at Spirit.

No he complained and complained and left for United, only to get furloughed. Now he sits and tells Spirit pilots what to do on the internet.

 

[CosmoKramer]

Now he sits and tells Spirit pilots what to do on the internet.

At least you share something in common...

 

[Beetle007]

deleted....cause I figured it out

 

[:-)]

No he complained and complained and left for United, only to get furloughed. Now he sits and tells Spirit pilots what to do on the internet.

Shrek left for Yoonited because he lives in the mountains and he always wanted to be a U pilot. He didn't complain about Spirit. He didn't leave because of anything about Spirit. But that was a nice shot, you got that going for ya.

About United, What's the top pay and days for their widebodies? They are slightly more than 28 baby airbii you know.

 

[Lear70]

Not to mention, United is operating under a bankruptcy-imposed 1113(c) contract and pay rates.

Not that their financials support it, but don't be surprised if, when they get to renegotiate their next contract, their rates snap back up about 30-40%. They might never be $300k+ a year Widebody max CA pay (or at least not in our career tracks), but they'll be well back above $200k a year for Widebody max CA pay after the next round along with work rules worthy of a Legacy/Major airline as well; bet you a C-note on it.

That said, comparing yourself to other carriers, while important for the PROFESSION as a whole, is less important than deciding if YOU can live with this contract and whether it was worth the angst of YEARS of fighting and a STRIKE to obtain. Personally, as I've said before, I'd vote NO, simply because of Scope, the loss of your overtime pay, their ability to build high-time lines that will come close to equaling out what many of you were already making, and the pay rates that aren't even CLOSE to industry average for that equipment. But I don't have to make that choice, you do.

Just make sure you understand the next steps if you DO vote NO. And they AREN'T getting parked by a PEB in all likelihood, and most ASSUREDLY do NOT result in having the NMB or a court system deciding your contract. You CAN immediately go BACK on strike if your MEC so decides after voting down a T.A. That's a FACT. I've been doing ALPA work for a long time and understand the RLA quite well, and I'm here to tell you if anyone is telling you differently than this, they're lying to your face (or deliberately exaggerating the chances of a PEB to a ridiculous extreme) as a scare tactic. You're not big enough to declare a PEB. Seriously, no offense intended, but you're not. And there is NO mechanism to force a contract from you in court unless the company files bankruptcy. Period. The end.

Best of luck...

 

[C-150ETOPS]

Lear70,


You summed it up well.

I don't know where he is getting the idea of the "courts" writing the Spirit contract. If the ALPA lawyer stated that without mentioning the only way for Spirit management to get a court written contract is to go CHP 11 and get a 113C, then this ALPA lawyer needs to be nailed to the nearest wall.

I agree also that the PEB is unlikely with Spirit due to it's size. The only thing that makes it possible would be if Rahm Emanuel thinks he can use it for 15 minutes of "feel good" news to divert the attenion from 20 other negative stories about B.O. Rahm also has probably figured out that 1/2 of Spirits pax will vote for the Dems' no matter what and the other 1/2 can't even vote because of a prior Felony conviction No Politician gives a krap about their loyal constituents, only the swing voters.

 

[redflyer65]

Lear is correct. I would vote NO as well, but its the call of the Spirit guys. The scope clause is the first place to start, not good. The courts have no say it how this goes down. Vote it in and live with it, or vote it down and go back on strike. PEB won't make any moves if they haven't already.

 

[Beetle007]

Not to mention, United is operating under a bankruptcy-imposed 1113(c) contract and pay rates.

Wrong. United never had a contract imposed upon them. In fact, No pilot group had a contract imposed upon them after 9-11. That is a common myth.

United negotiated a contract during bankruptcy because they feared a contract being imposed upon them.

The only union with any balls to allow a contract to be imposed upon them were the NWA flight attendants. After a couple months the NWA flight attendants also came to an agreement with the company and signed a contract.

 

[Beetle007]

The Spirit A319/320 captain pay will top out at $185/hr with great work rules.

The United Boeing 747 captain pay tops out at $190/hr and their A320 captain pay tops out at $137/hr. We have to look at what our competitors are paying regardless of if it was negotiated in bankruptcy. They call it pattern bargaining...we are trying to create a pattern of improving contracts.

I am tired of hearing pilots from other airlines giving us any input. I prefer the Spirit TA almost any other contract in the industry (other than SWA, Alaska, and Hawaiian). In my opinion, those are the only pilot groups that can give me any input because the rest of the airlines have crappy contracts with Pref Bidding, no 4 days off between trips, etc.

 

[C-150ETOPS]

I am tired of hearing pilots from other airlines giving us any input.

Don't know if I'm included in that group, but hopefully your pilot group is better versed in the process of the RLA/PEB's and the Courts. The hysteria and false rumour mill goes stratospheric with what Spirit pilot's are dealing with, accurate info on the process and the TA is something eveybody should know by heart. What you posted earlier was either incomplete or incorrect, and a big problem if you're voting YES based on your posts.

As for the details included in the TA, that's for you guys to decide, not others on a chatboard.

I would suggest that SCOPE needs to looked at very closely. I think every Latin America/Caribbean destination is Open Skies. That means if your SCOPE language has holes, an alter ego Spirit Carrier can fly in and out of FLL all day long with foreign crews totally legal with the USA as long as they don't continue on into the domestic US.

 

[waterski]

The Spirit A319/320 captain pay will top out at $185/hr with great work rules.

The United Boeing 747 captain pay tops out at $190/hr and their A320 captain pay tops out at $137/hr. We have to look at what our competitors are paying regardless of if it was negotiated in bankruptcy. They call it pattern bargaining...we are trying to create a pattern of improving contracts.

I am tired of hearing pilots from other airlines giving us any input. I prefer the Spirit TA almost any other contract in the industry (other than SWA, Alaska, and Hawaiian). In my opinion, those are the only pilot groups that can give me any input because the rest of the airlines have crappy contracts with Pref Bidding, no 4 days off between trips, etc.

Remember top year pay is useless if your airline is not here in 15 years. Examples are Mergers, alliances, bankruptcy. Goodluck to all of you.

 

[Beetle007]

Don't know if I'm included in that group,

I would suggest that SCOPE needs to looked at very closely. I think every Latin America/Caribbean destination is Open Skies. That means if your SCOPE language has holes, an alter ego Spirit Carrier can fly in and out of FLL all day long with foreign crews totally legal with the USA as long as they don't continue on into the domestic US.

Our scope language prohibits any revenue sharing agreement in excess of 90 days. Even if it is less than 90 days...it can't result in a furlough of Spirit pilots.

Spirit can create a code-share agreement but Spirit can't participate in any revenue sharing if it exceeds 90 days. also, any code-share agreement can't result in a furlough

Our scope is industry leading and our ALPA lawyer doesnt want to touch it.

 

[Beetle007]

Remember top year pay is useless if your airline is not here in 15 years. Examples are Mergers, alliances, bankruptcy. Goodluck to all of you.

in 4 years, 90%+ of our current captains will be at max payscales. Our most junior captain is a 9 year pilot.

If we aren't in business in 4 years, then I don't see much we can change in the contract to improve our careers.

 

[Redhot99]

Our scope language prohibits any revenue sharing agreement in excess of 90 days. Even if it is less than 90 days...it can't result in a furlough of Spirit pilots.

Spirit can create a code-share agreement but Spirit can't participate in any revenue sharing if it exceeds 90 days. also, any code-share agreement can't result in a furlough

Our scope is industry leading and our ALPA lawyer doesnt want to touch it.

That's not correct, they can't assign or contract out flying for more than 90 days but no where in the contract is there a limit to code share. The words revenue sharing are not in there any where. Republic can code share with us from FLL-DEN using any type of airplane they want. Our company can even take our next new A320 and dry lease it to them. I am be wrong but the scope section looks pretty clear that they can code share, pro-rate as much as they want as long as we don't furlough.

 

[Lear70]

Wrong. United never had a contract imposed upon them. In fact, No pilot group had a contract imposed upon them after 9-11. That is a common myth.

United negotiated a contract during bankruptcy because they feared a contract being imposed upon them.

The only union with any balls to allow a contract to be imposed upon them were the NWA flight attendants. After a couple months the NWA flight attendants also came to an agreement with the company and signed a contract.

While you are "technically" correct, many airlines, United included, had 1113(c) filings hanging over their head when they "negotiated" those contracts.

Kind of like negotiating with a gun held to your head. Point being, they are CONCESSIONARY, BANKRUPTCY CONTRACTS. Comparing yours to theirs and saying "Ooohhh, look what we got, it's better than yours." is some seriously flawed logic.

Vote for it if you want. I wouldn't.

 

[bubbers44]

rh99, I asked about scope to one of their reps and they said Spirit could only dry lease for 90 days so that covers them with no furloughs.

 

[C-150ETOPS]

Thanks beetle.

You guys have my admiration for stepping up to the plate for a unified strike. Keep up the good fight, it will never end.

 

[thunderworm]

when do you vote on your TA?

 

[redflyer65]

So they can dry lease a SPIRIT airbus to another company for 90 days?

Wow. That should read NO days.

 

[lostplnetairman]

Shrek left for Yoonited because he lives in the mountains and he always wanted to be a U pilot. He didn't complain about Spirit. He didn't leave because of anything about Spirit.

Sorry, everytime I met him all he did was complain about Spirit. That was my experience.

 

[lostplnetairman]

So they can dry lease a SPIRIT airbus to another company for 90 days?

Wow. That should read NO days.

Post your contact's scope clause and let's compare.

What does the company do if an aircraft is down for major repairs?

 

[bubbers44]

What can you do in 90 days. Scope protection is good. They are having their road show this week so I can't wait to hear what the pilots will complain about. I think it will pass. We will see.

 

[PCL_128]

The ONLY way that's possible inside the confines of the RLA is in an 1113(c) filing in bankruptcy.

Unfortunately, that's not exactly true. There is another way for a company to get the courts involved in the Section 6 process: allegations of bad-faith bargaining. The company can go to federal court and claim that the union is negotiating in bad faith, which is a violation of the RLA. The NMB doesn't rule on those things, the courts do. It's entirely possible that a judge would issue a preliminary injunction barring any self-help until after the case can be heard in court, which could delay another strike for quite some time.

Now, with that said, I don't think that's the main concern. There is a far greater likelihood of a PEB than there is of court action. And although everyone here wants to dismiss it, a PEB is not at all out of the question for Spirit. While it's true that the NMB would not recommend a PEB to the White House for Spirit under normal circumstances, a second strike within a few weeks is not normal circumstances, and I think it's quite possible, maybe even likely, that the President would issue a PEB to at least slow things down for another month. Two strikes at the same airline within weeks is very bad for politics.

 

[boomlrd]

Beetle007 is Bailman on the Spirit webboard, he is also a member of the union, so take waht he says with a very big grain of salt. He is also a Captain, so he will enjoy the contract much more than most FO's.

 

[Mike man]

here is another way for a company to get the courts involved in the Section 6 process: allegations of bad-faith bargaining. The company can go to federal court and claim that the union is negotiating in bad faith, which is a violation of the RLA. The NMB doesn't rule on those things, the courts do. It's entirely possible that a judge would issue a preliminary injunction barring any self-help until after the case can be heard in court, which could delay another strike for quite some time.

most unfortunately for the company...the odds are not in their favor in this situation, with miss dealings and such for the last year, it has been the cry babies at Spirit who have been bargaining in bad faith not the pilots.

And if Art Lubby is not smart enough to add a "if the TA fails clause in his return to work agreement" f-em and let him deal with the ramifications.

 

[lostplnetairman]

Beetle007 is Bailman on the Spirit webboard, he is also a member of the union, so take waht he says with a very big grain of salt. He is also a Captain, so he will enjoy the contract much more than most FO's.

Aren't we all members of the Union? That's why we agreed to strike. And some FO's get preferential treatment? I love the logic! LOL! Go to a road show!