Southwest won.

[TexaSWA]

TexasSWA, I love the attitude! I hope everyone at SWA allows cockiness to creep into their mindset while the new "little guys" rise to challenge you all.

Easy dude,

Just wanted to reassure you that although we are no longer the financial underdog, our leaders conduct business as shrewdly as they ever have. We are not immune to failure, but its unlikely you will see us repeating anything that has undone the "legacys"

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

For ATA/SWA it is the best scenerio. For everyone else it sucks.
FBJ: Huah!!

City of Chicago: Less competition at MDW, means pax will have less choices. The city will be ruled by UAL, AMR, & LUV for a long time to come.
FBJ: Long live the King of Midway!!

AirTran: Well it's on to DFW, where they will meet SWA in the form of ATA.
FBJ: Better Airtran and Jetblue than SWA! Beavis DFW sucks, uh, yeah, huhah....

JetBlue: MDW will probably not get the JFK flts due to lack of gates. They will not be a factor in Chicago unless UAL goes down the tubes sometime in the next decade.
FBJ: Next Decade? Sooner than that, I'm sure.


Where are you Richard Daley????

You didn't really think SWA was going to let this opportunity pass them by, did you? 1.8 Billion in the bank for distress sales such as these. SWA is a power shopper.

 

[POWDERFINGER]

Never Sell Out!

Everyone here has an opinion.

There was one gentleman I flew with years ago who told of denying Candalyn Kubek a jumpseat not long before she was killed on flight 592. I thought he was nuts...lots of people thought he was extreme in his hard feelings relating to the anti-labor faction in this industry.

The truth is that there's no forgiveness for anyone who acts against workers utilizing self-help. During the Eastern strike there were folks with stacks of applications in Buffalo, Baltimore, and elsewhere pestering me and other commuter pilots with offers of glamor and career advancement. "Fill this out, give it to us, and go see the bosses when they call..." Help Lorenzo? No way!

And now in 2004 AAI offers the same, and expects us to help them execute a devils deal that wrecks careers. It panders to pilots with lots of talent but who lack the self respect to not short sell themselves. That company considers its crews a commodity like fuel, electricity, and tapwater. Help them? No way!

SWA is many of measures more worthy of crewmembers' efforts to make the deal succeed. And if it doesn't, I'll play the piano in one of the local hoehouses before knocking on the door at AAI. Our differences shall forever be irreconcilable.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

...just the fact that SWA moved decisively to block AAI's expansion at MDW in itself shows a lot of respect for them as a competitor. Rest assured, our head shed is indeed looking over their shoulder at AirTran, Jetblue, AWA et-al, and NOT underestimating any of them.

Absolutely. IMHO, Airtran and JetBlue still have growing to do before they can take advantage of situations such as ATA's Ch 11 auction.

They, instead, have big growth planned from within That strategy is a very, very good one. But that plan and their relative small size doesn't leave much room to buy assets from other airlines.

 

[fletch717]

Powder, Can I remind you that it was YOUR management wrecked your carrier. ATA approached 10 carriers last summer wanting to sell. It was you knocking on our door. As for denying a jumpseat to a pilot well thats about all you have control over in your little world, so go out there and strike a blow to all those pilots who accept pay cuts and fly for less than top pay. I'm sure one day ALPA will hang your portrait on their wall of honor, of course you will have to ask for time off from your job at walmart to go see it.

 

[Delville]

its unlikely you will see us repeating anything that has undone the "legacys"

TexasSWA, I also doubt that you will repeat the same specific mistakes that have doomed the legacy carriers. However, I think SWA could fall prey to some of the same types of cultural and emotional problems that infested the former big boys during their period of dominance.

The changes to SWA's culture and attitude, as you transition from perennial underdog to 800 pound gorilla, could be very threatening. As SWA takes a more aggressive stance within the industry, the subtle emotional effects that will have on employees and customers could be damaging. It's easy to rally the troops to put up with low pay and more work when their survival is threatened. However, the opposite is true now at SWA, and I think the psychological motivation to keep costs low and operate efficiently will be reduced with SWA's new industry position. Additionally, humility has always been a cornerstone of SWA's culture. Customers have always picked up on that and liked it. Customers have also always known up to this point, through SWA's marketing and by the genuine case of reality, that SWA was in an underdog sort of situation. They were willing to cut SWA just a little bit of slack. That's the way people are. Now, however, times have certainly changed. It is hard to be humble when you're the dominant industry leader. Both employees and customers will eventually realize this. It'll be extremely difficult to keep your culture the same. Customers will also have a different expectation from a SWA that is king of the hill.

SWA will be able to ride on it's coattails and the goodwill it has engendered for a while, but eventually that could change unless the growth is very, very carefully managed. Employees from the old guard will still be humble and try to maintain the old SWA spirit. However, there is a real danger (I think) that they will be overwhelmed as the newer, cockier employees work their way into the SWA organization. Believe me, there are pilots being hired at SWA today who five years disparaged and ridiculed anyone who would pay for a type rating to go work at a low ball operation.

Another point to consider: SWA has incredible fuel hedges (in the mid $20's) right now that last for the next couple of years. This is VERY good for SWA and will virtually guarantee SWA's position for the next several years. However, those same fuel hedges could turn out to be a bad thing in the long run. The airlines without good fuel hedges right now are being forced by the competitive situation to become ultra-efficient. If they don't become ultra-efficient, they will die (USAir, Independence, ATA). Therefore, the airlines that do manage to make it through to a point where all of the airlines are on somewhat equal footing in terms of fuel prices will be profit-making machines. SWA may feel some pressure right now to keep costs rock-bottom low but at the end of the day that pressure cannot rival the do-or-die pressure on other airlines. I've long held the belief that people do only what they know and believe they really have to do to get by. That's the argument I'm making here. Airlines like AirTran, JetBlue, and America West know and believe they have to be efficient. SWA knows in it's heart it doesn't have to be as efficient right now. If the playing field is ever leveled, SWA could be at a disadvantage.

 

[SWA/FO]

Its all about "Plane Smart Business", baby!

 

[POWDERFINGER]

Fletch -

It's not just about pay.

It's about whether or not pilots will be the enablers of their doom...whether we allow companies to reduce us to worthless pawns or not.

It is about asserting industrial power - or being made passive by the forces of this industry.

As for certain people in uppermost ATA management who approached AAI, seeking to score for themselves, it was still AAI that offered the sellout. I would expect the Joe Leonard types to go out this winter, on the coldest nights, and offer the freezing homeless a cup of tea and a warm room in exchange for a handjob or maybe their last pint of blood.

And if ALPA puts my picture on a wall somewhere, I'll take the day off from my job as rodeo clown and attend the ceremony...

BTW, this board is taking too much of my precious time. I'm going to sign off now and get on with some bench presses, squat-thrusts, and running to prepare for our new codesharing passengers. It's going to be a heavy next several months...

 

[fletch717]

Southwest is not the least bit interested in ATA success, neither was AirTran. Southwest plan is clear. Be the hero and claim to save ATA with loans, and when that money is gone simply state that you tried to help ATA but had to shut it down because the economy, oil prices, and labor costs are the real culprit. So in about 18-24 months they take the rest of the gates in mdw because ATA still owes the original loan. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying southwest is a bad guy all I'm saying is that this is a business plan. Southwest wants to own midway, you can't fault a winner for being agressive. In my humble opinion this will be similar to the AA/TWA deal. I hope this is not true, but even stevie wonder could see this.

 

[Boeingman]

Last time SWA bought an airline, if I remember correctly those boys and girls didn't fair to well. Can some of you SWA folks that were around for the Morris deal provide some info?

 

[Ty Webb]

Everyone here has an opinion.

I'll play the piano in one of the local hoehouses before knocking on the door at AAI. Our differences shall forever be irreconcilable.

Anyone who is stupid enough to make a comment like this will certainly come to see it pass.

All hail Powderfinger, our new Village Idiot.

 

[Jim Smyth]

Morris Pilots did quite well if you ask me! They all got a pay raise for the most part with unlimited ability to work as much as they wanted to make alot more if they so desired. No more stand up overnights. Job security. All are very senor right now in the Left seat with weekends and holidays off if they wish. They were given a 01-01-1994 senority date of hire which untitled them to profit sharing for the full year of 1994 which I'm sure they didnt realize until later on. They have a healthy 401K. Lets not forget all the stock options either. Sure you have your 5 percenters that wouldnt be happy if they got every day in the week off but I can assure you the majority are quite happy right now. The only thing I can say that they took a back seat to was being put at the bottom of the senority list. If they would have been given date of hire it would have moved them up about a year or so. But Morris had alot of senority issues within there own ranks with Serira Pacific, Ryan and Morris list. Plus you had a few of the Bishops move right to the front of the class too. So I dont think they had it too bad.

 

[TexaSWA]

Last time SWA bought an airline, if I remember correctly those boys and girls didn't fair to well. Can some of you SWA folks that were around for the Morris deal provide some info?

Yeah they got shafted!!!

They're all millionaires for sh1tesake!!!

Delville,

You have an excellent point that I do agree with.

 

[Boeingman]

Yeah they got shafted!!!

They're all millionaires for sh1tesake!!!

.

I'm talking about the ones that "didn't make it" . Obviously those on property made out well. Thanks for the lesson.

Remember you're not a millionaire until those options are converted and the money is sitting in the bank at retirement.

 

[Boeingman]

Morris Pilots did quite well if you ask me! They all got a pay raise for the most part with unlimited ability to work as much as they wanted to make alot more if they so desired. No more stand up overnights. Job security. All are very senor right now in the Left seat with weekends and holidays off if they wish. They were given a 01-01-1994 senority date of hire which untitled them to profit sharing for the full year of 1994 which I'm sure they didnt realize until later on. They have a healthy 401K. Lets not forget all the stock options either. Sure you have your 5 percenters that wouldnt be happy if they got every day in the week off but I can assure you the majority are quite happy right now. The only thing I can say that they took a back seat to was being put at the bottom of the senority list. If they would have been given date of hire it would have moved them up about a year or so. But Morris had alot of senority issues within there own ranks with Serira Pacific, Ryan and Morris list. Plus you had a few of the Bishops move right to the front of the class too. So I dont think they had it too bad.

Jim:

Thank you for the well thought out and intelligent reply. I should of been more specific in my question as I was thinking that there was some sort of weeding out of Morris pilots at SWA before they made it on property. Was I mistaken in the assumption that there was not a wholesale integration of all the pilots there at Morris?

I'm sure ATA will have more clout than Morris, but watching ALPA abandon the TWA guys (no flame, no judgement on right or wrong, just a fact and observation AA folks) I'm wondering how the process will fair for them.

Thanks

 

[Jim Smyth]

Boeingman, Actualy at first I was a litttle pissed reading your comment but it was obvious you didnt understand what had transpired with the Morris buyout and it's good to know what actualy happened from an insider. Sometimes it's easy to Slam a company before knowing the facts but I guess thats what makes this forum good to learn from one another.

Intially SWA wanted to interview all the Morris Pilots and pick the ones they wanted just like in the interview process. The Morris Pilots stuck together and said it was all or nothing. After alot of internal debate with the union leaders for Morris and SWA it was decided that SWA would take all of them. There were 202 Morris Pilots that came on board as of 01-01-1994. Some of them didnt have a type rating either which was a first for SWA as far as I know. The main reason that SWA wanted to interview them first was that there was a few of them there that had been terminated at SWA for various reasons and I am sure there were strong feelings by SWA managemant types that didnt want them back. All in all it wasnt perfect merger/buyout/accusation but wasnt bad either. When your being acquired you never get the better end of the deal IMO. But as the industry has taught us it could have been alot worse thats for sure.

Now the ATA situation is very fluid at the moment. Gary stated that as a company we are not taking control of ATA which we did in the Morris deal so it's a completely different type of situation. So I am not sure how it will shake out when its done but I wish all the ATA folks the best. Hopefully we will gain a stake in ATA and help them get back on there feet and make a profit on our investment in the process while protecting our home turf so to speak. The ATA folks and SWA have worked very well together in the past and I see great things in the future for both of us. With any luck down the road the ATA will prosper and be able to bring some of the folks back that they may have to furlough in the near term. From my own experiance I know that SWA likes the home team meaning ATA folks in Chicago. So I am sure the furloughed ones will have a very good opportunaty to interview and get hired at SWA in the interm. We have ambitious plans for next year and will need alot of good qualified help.

 

[Boeingman]

Boeingman, Actualy at first I was a litttle pissed reading your comment but it was obvious you didnt understand what had transpired with the Morris buyout and it's good to know what actualy happened from an insider. Sometimes it's easy to Slam a company before knowing the facts but I guess thats what makes this forum good to learn from one another.

After rereading it this morning, I don't blame you since it wasn't worded very well. Thanks for giving me the benefit of doubt on that one. I never intended it as a slam, but it did sound like it. My bad! The forum is perfect to be able to learn and it is abhorrent because it can't impart inflection in tone of facial expression to help the communication. Nature of the beast.

You're correct I didn't know what happened and it, like all rumors grow in intensity until put to rest. I think your reply will help with some very emotional roller coasters going on at ATA right now.

Intially SWA wanted to interview all the Morris Pilots and pick the ones they wanted just like in the interview process. The Morris Pilots stuck together and said it was all or nothing. After alot of internal debate with the union leaders for Morris and SWA it was decided that SWA would take all of them. There were 202 Morris Pilots that came on board as of 01-01-1994. Some of them didnt have a type rating either which was a first for SWA as far as I know. The main reason that SWA wanted to interview them first was that there was a few of them there that had been terminated at SWA for various reasons and I am sure there were strong feelings by SWA managemant types that didnt want them back. All in all it wasnt perfect merger/buyout/accusation but wasnt bad either. When your being acquired you never get the better end of the deal IMO. But as the industry has taught us it could have been alot worse thats for sure.

Again, thanks for the time to answer. Knowing the facts, it was a good deal.

 

[atafan]

Jim Smyth,

Sir, you are a real gentleman and I'd be proud to work with other SWA employees just like you!

 

[Ty Webb]

It sounds like you are making an assumption that there will be some sort of list integration . . . . and I don't see where that would ever happen out of a minority ownership.

A separate operating certificate and two separate employee groups is what I would expect.

 

[ATA For Now!]

two separate employee groups is what I would expect.

At least with WN there will be employees!