Southwest to buy AirTran...

[spitfire1500]

SWA has never put a pilot on the street.

Last I checked neither has AirTran

 

[Lear70]

We had an ATA pilot in my new-hire class. Nice guy, kept to himself, but you could tell he wasn't having a good time.

When he got recalled by ATA, he went... while stopping by the C.P.'s office to tell him what he thought about airTran.

I heard this directly from FP, couldn't believe my ears when he told me what the pilot had said. Not going to post the details, not really necessary, except to say that I didn't think it was anywhere near *that* bad...

Sure, management's trying to squeeze every last drop of blood they can from their employee groups these days, but it still beats the regional I came from.

Of course, I'm treated better these days flying charter than I was at any airline. They treat me like an adult, give me the keys to a jet with a $250,000 credit card and say "save as much money as you can but do the right thing for our clients" and I do. Problem is, of course, the money isn't there long-term...

Makes me kinda wish I had bailed for NJA before I had the termination on my record - can't get considered now...

Personally, I know the pilots would hate it initially, but merging with SWA and getting their management group in charge would, eventually, mean a much happier pilot group *IF* the management culture didn't change at SWA.

 

[Flyboynfla]

Hey Spitfire - Make that statement after 25 more years in business!

 

[CA Calypso]

You're right. As long as people think like you do that we're all in competition with one another, we'll never be a true brotherhood.

PCL 128,

I didn't say I was a proponent of this line of thought. I was just making an unemotional observation that fifteen years in this industry has afforded me.

Airlines are competitors. Therefore when you work for a different airline - you work for the competition. Do you honestly think that one group of pilots would sacrifice themselves for another? Do you think the Ford auto workers would throw themselves on their sword for the benefit of GM autoworkers?

Is anything I said untrue?

 

[PCL_128]

PCL 128,

I didn't say I was a proponent of this line of thought. I was just making an unemotional observation that fifteen years in this industry has afforded me.

Airlines are competitors. Therefore when you work for a different airline - you work for the competition. Do you honestly think that one group of pilots would sacrifice themselves for another? Do you think the Ford auto workers would throw themselves on their sword for the benefit of GM autoworkers?


Is anything I said untrue?

It's not a matter of throwing themselves on their swords for another group. The problem is that many pilots are actively hostile towards pilots from other airlines. Pilots from other airlines work for the competition, but they aren't themselves the competition. Pilots from different groups should try to work together to develop strategies that benefit the entire profession rather than salivating over the thought of events that could cripple the careers of pilots from a competing carrier.

 

[CA Calypso]

It's not a matter of throwing themselves on their swords for another group. The problem is that many pilots are actively hostile towards pilots from other airlines. Pilots from other airlines work for the competition, but they aren't themselves the competition. Pilots from different groups should try to work together to develop strategies that benefit the entire profession rather than salivating over the thought of events that could cripple the careers of pilots from a competing carrier.

I agree with you - I hope things evolve this way...

 

[RedDogC130]

It's not a matter of throwing themselves on their swords for another group. The problem is that many pilots are actively hostile towards pilots from other airlines. Pilots from other airlines work for the competition, but they aren't themselves the competition. Pilots from different groups should try to work together to develop strategies that benefit the entire profession rather than salivating over the thought of events that could cripple the careers of pilots from a competing carrier.

I get it so the Patriots are practicing with the Giants in hopes that they learn how to play the game better next season. trading plays and the Patriots want to give the best players to the Giants to give them an even edge... Not sure if that really made sense but oh well..

I do disagree about the competition part of the topic with regards to pilot v. pilot a little. I would never be rude or mean to another pilot from another airline, in fact I take pride in seeing if they need help woth anything if I have the power to do so. I never want to see someone lose a job but if it means that I keep mine and their company goes out of business and mine survives...hope you have money saved. Why would I sacrifice my company to save another...that does not make much sense. Business is competition...to make money off the other guy. I am shocked you don't get that. Just like when we gain experience and flight time, I want my resume better looking than the next guy in hopes that that takes me over the top to get the job. I didn't get my Masters degree because I like to go to school, I got it because it would look good on my resume...I hate to admit I did learn some good stuff though.

 

[Lear70]

I do disagree about the competition part of the topic with regards to pilot v. pilot a little. I would never be rude or mean to another pilot from another airline, in fact I take pride in seeing if they need help woth anything if I have the power to do so. I never want to see someone lose a job but if it means that I keep mine and their company goes out of business and mine survives...hope you have money saved. Why would I sacrifice my company to save another...that does not make much sense. Business is competition...to make money off the other guy. I am shocked you don't get that. Just like when we gain experience and flight time, I want my resume better looking than the next guy in hopes that that takes me over the top to get the job. I didn't get my Masters degree because I like to go to school, I got it because it would look good on my resume...I hate to admit I did learn some good stuff though.

And that's one of the reasons this job will never again be what it was.

There is a *reason* all the ALPA MEC's get together to discuss things, including negotiating strategies.

There is a *reason* that non-ALPA airlines get together to try to influence the votes in Washington when it affects us.

There is a *reason* that "pattern-based bargaining" is used by just about everyone, including SWAPA and the NPA among others.

We can either work TOGETHER to accomplish our goals or we will all certainly suffer separately. Just because your airline has been on a roll for a decade and now has the highest narrow-body paid pilots in the world (and better than many airlines' SWB's), doesn't mean it will always be that way.

Competition is healthy, certainly. However, management at most Legacies as well as the LCC's have learned that co-existence is the key to survival. Maybe there's a lesson for you in there, too.

I hate to say it, but since the Pandora's box of deregulation can never be shut again, perhaps competing on SERVICE and letting the customer pick, rather than believing it's a competition between PILOTS, might get us farther towards our collective goals and make ALL of us profitable without having to sacrifice another airline and the hundreds of thousands of lives that go along with it.

Just a thought.

 

[airline#5]

RedDog...you are a tool. Now go get your doctorate.

 

[CA Calypso]

And that's one of the reasons this job will never again be what it was.

There is a *reason* all the ALPA MEC's get together to discuss things, including negotiating strategies.

There is a *reason* that non-ALPA airlines get together to try to influence the votes in Washington when it affects us.

There is a *reason* that "pattern-based bargaining" is used by just about everyone, including SWAPA and the NPA among others.

We can either work TOGETHER to accomplish our goals or we will all certainly suffer separately. Just because your airline has been on a roll for a decade and now has the highest narrow-body paid pilots in the world (and better than many airlines' SWB's), doesn't mean it will always be that way.

Competition is healthy, certainly. However, management at most Legacies as well as the LCC's have learned that co-existence is the key to survival. Maybe there's a lesson for you in there, too.

I hate to say it, but since the Pandora's box of deregulation can never be shut again, perhaps competing on SERVICE and letting the customer pick, rather than believing it's a competition between PILOTS, might get us farther towards our collective goals and make ALL of us profitable without having to sacrifice another airline and the hundreds of thousands of lives that go along with it.

Just a thought.

I agree that pilot groups should work together and I think to the greatest extent possible they have.

However, I don't think that management thinks co-existence is the key except in a few certain circumstances. Delta and AirTran in Atlanta, United and Frontier in Denver, etc. The smaller carriers' existence in those cities keeps out another large hubbed carrier. Other than that, when a carrier is knocked out of business it creates opportunities for other carriers - either through growth or increased margins. Hence the move toward consolidation - we are moving to fewer mega carriers rather than peacefully co-existing together.

And the customer has been picking the winners - but not on service but on price. Unfortunately, air service has become just another commodity.

 

[CA Calypso]

RedDog...you are a tool. Now go get your doctorate.

Why is RedDog a tool? You may not like what he said - but what did he say that is not true?

 

[TV9Driver]

Actually RedDog, your analogy of the NFL is a great one.

Although the players on each team try to beat the other during the game, they ALL belong to the same Players UNION and work TOGETHER to create a better profession for ALL of the players, not just the players on their team.

Unfortunately, we as pilots don't do that. We try to undercut each other and f*** each other over at every turn.

 

[curtis46]

RedDog...you are a tool. Now go get your doctorate.

It's for sale all over the internet,probably just like his master.

 

[PCL_128]

Actually RedDog, your analogy of the NFL is a great one.

Although the players on each team try to beat the other during the game, they ALL belong to the same Players UNION and work TOGETHER to create a better profession for ALL of the players, not just the players on their team.


Unfortunately, we as pilots don't do that. We try to undercut each other and f*** each other over at every turn.

Exactly right.

 

[CA Calypso]

Actually RedDog, your analogy of the NFL is a great one.

Although the players on each team try to beat the other during the game, they ALL belong to the same Players UNION and work TOGETHER to create a better profession for ALL of the players, not just the players on their team.

Unfortunately, we as pilots don't do that. We try to undercut each other and f*** each other over at every turn.

The problem with this line of thought is that the NFL players are able to change teams by choice, trade, contract buyouts, etc. without losing their benefits like we would. They usually better their position in life. It's essentially a national seniority list.

The teams may compete on the game field but the business aspect of the teams do not compete against each other. The Bears are not competing for a finite amount of business against the Doplhins - people going to a Bears game does not mean less people will go to a Dolphins game.

The only way for that to work here would be for it all to be based on ability/talent, or even worse, whoever is willing to whore themselves out to the lowest bidding airline...

Would you really want that in an industry where the 'good ol boys' club would prevail?

 

[TonkaF16]

Morris Guys at SWA

How did the guys at Morris Air do when SWA bought them? Any left on your seniority list?

There are many.

Flew with one each of the past 6 months, IOE check airman was one. All but one was top notch and happy to be here. They brought A LOT of 737 knowledge to a technology phobic company. IMHO they helped SWA learn how to properly fly the 737NG.

The single exception would not be happy anywhere at anytime with any company. Steve B out of Oak just in case any of you fly with that tool.

 

[airlinepilot]

Flying with a former Morris guy now, Check airman now, SWA buying Morris was best thing that ever happened to him. But at the time it was hard to see that.

 

[Captzaahlie]

Yea that makes sense Huckabee thinks humans roamed the earth with dinosaurs.

WE HAVE/ARE ROAMING THE EARTH WITH DINOSAURS!

just look at the equipment I'm flying, I'm sure it is somehow related to the Pterodactyl's

 

[Captzaahlie]

The problem with this line of thought is that the NFL players are able to change teams by choice, trade, contract buyouts, etc. without losing their benefits like we would. They usually better their position in life. It's essentially a national seniority list.

The teams may compete on the game field but the business aspect of the teams do not compete against each other. The Bears are not competing for a finite amount of business against the Doplhins - people going to a Bears game does not mean less people will go to a Dolphins game.

The only way for that to work here would be for it all to be based on ability/talent, or even worse, whoever is willing to whore themselves out to the lowest bidding airline...

Would you really want that in an industry where the 'good ol boys' club would prevail?

Good point.

The NFL is "entertainment" just like the so called "professional wrestling".

I wouldn't be surprised if football players had Screen Actors Guild cards like those mighty professional wrestlers too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screen_Actors_Guild

We already have the so called "Good Ole Boy's Club's" those are our ALPA representatives! No disrespect intended but it's a political popularity contest all the way around even when it comes down to those "top secret" role call votes.

 

[airlinepilot]

Just back from PC in Dallas

When management talked to us about buying someone.....and they exclude (Delta, NWA, United, AMR, Continental, USAIR, etc) and then they talk about buying someone with cities we don't already have (CLT, MSP, ATL, San Juan, etc) it starts to sound alot like airtran! Also heard from management that it's not going to be Frontier.