Southwest off the runway at MDW

[Bandit60]

let me end this entire discussion by saying that SWA uses an FAA approved and sophiscated onboard portable computer system which uses custom data for every runway in its entire system, combined with current weather, runway condition data, specific airplane model and tail number, aircraft weight, runway USEABLE LENGTH (made even shorter automatically in poor weather as a conservative factor), runway slope, obstacles, glideslope angle etc. to show specific landing margins and clearly state if you can safely land. this system is used for every single landing of SWA 3000+ daily flights and can be updated and checked on a moment to moment basis if necessary.

now that data is only good if sources coming from ATC and other planes is accurate.

Excellent response. Thanks

 

[Vladimir Lenin]

Actually what she said in the news conference was that the first part of the runway was reported as fair and the end portion was reported as poor. never was nil mentioned.

poor it is

 

[atafan]

From the report.

Aircraft landed within the zone at 123kts indicated and 132kts G/S, braking was reported as fair. It's starting sound like the braking report wasn't accurate.

It sounds like the crew touched down on speed and in the zone, 9 kts of tailwind seems excessive but I would have to see the charts.

Bottom line: You are not doing anyone a favor by being too conservative on the braking reports because it sounds like the braking was probably poor to nil at least at the end.

They hit the barrier at 40 kts.

 

[Vladimir Lenin]

she said the fdr will have to analyzed "backward" to see where they touched down

 

[ivauir]

ntsb just held a conf

wind 090/9

airspeed at touchdown 123 kts

brake condition at the end of runway nil

Anyone have a link?

 

[CKJET]

My heart goes out to the family and crew.

To all of you who continue to second guess and bad mouth Southwest I am appauled! I have shot hundreds of approaches into MDW going back to the early 90s in the Kiwi days. The one thing all of them had in common? They were all very exciting! This could have happened to anyone. Celiing at 300 feet, runway lights probally covered in snow, who knows what the winds were like going down (I know some smart ass will post the winds now) I have seen winds at 3000 feet going into MDW at 60kts and calm on the ground. Stop bad mouthing these guys. And stop bad mouthing the company they need your support. Pilots are supposed to stick together not attack each other.

 

[mdf]

You still can't accept an apology and seem vindictive and yes "mentally unstable" being that's the case. Because of the fact that some people get so bent of shape in todays society is part of the reason for an anoymous message board. Over sensitivity in real life leads to irrational responses up to including lawsuits, death threats, etc. So learn to accept an apology and realize that some of us consider a message board a place to freely exchange without all the formal proper pleasantries most of us use in real life. Also, you can't go around hiding behind a flightinfo name calling people names, calling them "weak" while bashing them about not divulging their true identities. That's hypocritical.

I accept your apology. I also am sorry for my comments. I still think I was right in my theory, just too strong in the delivery. Just feeling pretty bad for everyone involved, and seeing people on this thread getting off on it was too much to bear.

 

[CKJET]

I am sorry for the spelling and grammer errors in my last post and in my profile. I was very upset after reading 14 pages of posts and created an account very quickly.

 

[=w=]

I don't care what anybody posts about me. Maybe I am crass, maybe not. But, if you add it all up:

6500' runway
heavy snow
contaminated runway
Braking action fair turning to poor at the far end
737-700 with 95-100 pax
RVR was what? 3000 or 4000
7-8 kts tailwind as briefed by the NTSB

I don't care if the guy in front of you got it on safely. This is a pretty ballsy choice to shoot this approach. It is barely legal on almost every front and to me, if I may be entitled to an opinion on this board, is a pretty stupid decision. Like everybody has said, MDW is tough in severe clear.

Man that's kinda like playing Russian roulette with your career and many peoples' lives at stake!!!

Someone had to say it!

 

[Dumbluck]

oh, dude.

get the full story, let emtions calm down, then learn from the investigation

armchair flying after a fatal accident is just...I don't have the words

 

[SWA/FO]

You have shown us all your true colors and dont have any class either based on your previous comments. You need to learn to contain yourself, act like an adult and be respectful of others. Dont use the F word again here.

Mud Eagle..........yah, I agree with you but not in a public venue like this. There are some simple rules on this site that we out of common respect towards others should follow. What SWA/FO said was unacceptable and if you noticed, he had to change his previous F word to stars. You really shouldnt have to ask this sort of question.

For the record, I find it amazing that my choice of words was even a topic, here. By-the-way, I didn't change it..the flightinfo.com police did. This popular word (in some parts of the world) was only in honor of the few that took cheap shots at SWA.

 

[AKAAB]

Regarding the FedEx MD-11 at EWR and the misinterpretation of the runway and performance data: http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2000/AAR0002.pdf see paragraph 2.2.2.7 on page 60.

 

[Guitar rocker]

For the record, I find it amazing that my choice of words was even a topic, here. By-the-way, I didn't change it..the flightinfo.com police did. This popular word (in some parts of the world) was only in honor of the few that took cheap shots at SWA.

Your choice of words and your demeanor are unacceptable. I CANT believe that someone has to spell it out for you, but why cant you play by the simple rules on this site???? Have some common respect and courtesy for others. You can say whatever you want elsewhere, but here, act as an adult and try and be a professional. Even the police/mediators on this site had to take out your F word. Doesnt that tell you something?

Just because your on this site doesnt give YOU the right to use profanity. I seriously hope that the mediators stick you in that penalty box, right where you belong. If you were a big boy, you could apologize right here for using the language you did to the specific individual that was asking a simple question. My guess is that you wouldnt even think of it. Last but not least, really only one person took a cheap shot at SWA. Dont label the rest of us as having done so. We all have the crew, SWA employees and the boy that was killed in our prayers. If your going to use profanity, do it somewhere else!

 

[satpak77]

Did he have the viz?

Not a flame....trying to learn from this, lets discuss this as professionals.

Here are the METARS prior and after the accident time, obtained from

http://www.met.tamu.edu/met/Weather/weather.html

The weather observed at CHICAGO, IL (KMDW) at 04:53 PM CST was:
The skies were cloudy.
The weather reported was light snow and fog.
Temperature: 27F ( -3C) Dewpoint: 23F ( -5C) Relative Humidity: 86%
Winds from the E (090 degs) at 14 mph.
Pressure: 1021.6 millibars. Altimeter:30.12 inches of mercury.
The prevailing visibility was .75 miles.
There was 0.00 inches of precipitation in the past 6 hours.

The weather observed at CHICAGO, IL (KMDW) at 05:53 PM CST was:
The skies were unobserved.
The weather reported was moderate snow and fog.
Temperature: 26F ( -3C) Dewpoint: 24F ( -4C) Relative Humidity: 92%
Winds from the E (100 degs) at 10 mph.
Pressure: 1020.7 millibars. Altimeter:30.09 inches of mercury.
The prevailing visibility was .25 miles.
The maximum temperature in the past 6 hours was 26F.
The minimum temperature in the past 6 hours was 22F.
There was 0.00 inches of precipitation in the past 6 hours.

The weather observed at CHICAGO, IL (KMDW) at 05:53 PM CST was:
The skies were unobserved.
The weather reported was moderate snow and fog.
Temperature: 26F ( -3C) Dewpoint: 24F ( -4C) Relative Humidity: 92%
Winds from the E (100 degs) at 10 mph.
Pressure: 1020.7 millibars. Altimeter:30.09 inches of mercury.
The prevailing visibility was .25 miles.
The maximum temperature in the past 6 hours was 26F.
The minimum temperature in the past 6 hours was 22F.
There was 0.00 inches of precipitation in the past 6 hours.

The weather observed at CHICAGO, IL (KMDW) at 06:53 PM CST was:
The skies were cloudy.
The weather reported was moderate snow and fog.
Temperature: 26F ( -3C) Dewpoint: 23F ( -5C) Relative Humidity: 88%
Winds from the E (100 degs) at 13 mph.
Pressure: 1019.6 millibars. Altimeter:30.06 inches of mercury.
The prevailing visibility was .5 miles.
There was 0.00 inches of precipitation in the past 6 hours.

The weather observed at CHICAGO, IL (KMDW) at 07:53 PM CST was:
The skies were unobserved.
The weather reported was moderate snow and fog.
Temperature: 25F ( -4C) Dewpoint: 23F ( -5C) Relative Humidity: 92%
Winds from the SW (230 degs) at 3 mph.
Pressure: 1019.1 millibars. Altimeter:30.04 inches of mercury.
The prevailing visibility was .5 miles.
There was 0.00 inches of precipitation in the past 6 hours.

The weather observed at CHICAGO, IL (KMDW) at 08:53 PM CST was:
The skies were cloudy.
The weather reported was light snow and fog.
Temperature: 24F ( -4C) Dewpoint: 22F ( -6C) Relative Humidity: 91%
Winds from the SW (230 degs) at 3 mph.
Pressure: 1018.3 millibars. Altimeter:30.02 inches of mercury.
The prevailing visibility was 3 miles.
There was 0.00 inches of precipitation in the past 6 hours.

the approach plate indicates that 4000 RVR or 3/4 mile is needed for this (unless I had a brain fart and am missing something...)

http://myairplane.com/databases/approach/pdfs/00081ILD31C.PDF

again, professional comments please.....just putting this out there for discussion

If lives can be saved and accidents avoided in the future because of this, thats what is called "learning every day" in aviation

 

[FN FAL]

Refrain from giving these clowns an inch.

why would the clowns need an inch when the line pilots have already provided a mile...

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/051209/051209_planecrash_runway_vmed.widec.jpg

 

[Vladimir Lenin]

http://www.kvia.com/Global/story.asp?S=4225607

 

[Donsa320]

Not a flame....trying to learn from this, lets discuss this as professionals.

Here are the METARS prior and after the accident time, obtained from

http://www.met.tamu.edu/met/Weather/weather.html

The weather observed at CHICAGO, IL (KMDW) at 04:53 PM CST was:
The skies were cloudy.
The weather reported was light snow and fog.
Temperature: 27F ( -3C) Dewpoint: 23F ( -5C) Relative Humidity: 86%
Winds from the E (090 degs) at 14 mph.
Pressure: 1021.6 millibars. Altimeter:30.12 inches of mercury.
The prevailing visibility was .75 miles.
There was 0.00 inches of precipitation in the past 6 hours.

The weather observed at CHICAGO, IL (KMDW) at 05:53 PM CST was:
The skies were unobserved.
The weather reported was moderate snow and fog.
Temperature: 26F ( -3C) Dewpoint: 24F ( -4C) Relative Humidity: 92%
Winds from the E (100 degs) at 10 mph.
Pressure: 1020.7 millibars. Altimeter:30.09 inches of mercury.
The prevailing visibility was .25 miles.
The maximum temperature in the past 6 hours was 26F.
The minimum temperature in the past 6 hours was 22F.
There was 0.00 inches of precipitation in the past 6 hours.

The weather observed at CHICAGO, IL (KMDW) at 05:53 PM CST was:
The skies were unobserved.
The weather reported was moderate snow and fog.
Temperature: 26F ( -3C) Dewpoint: 24F ( -4C) Relative Humidity: 92%
Winds from the E (100 degs) at 10 mph.
Pressure: 1020.7 millibars. Altimeter:30.09 inches of mercury.
The prevailing visibility was .25 miles.
The maximum temperature in the past 6 hours was 26F.
The minimum temperature in the past 6 hours was 22F.
There was 0.00 inches of precipitation in the past 6 hours.

The weather observed at CHICAGO, IL (KMDW) at 06:53 PM CST was:
The skies were cloudy.
The weather reported was moderate snow and fog.
Temperature: 26F ( -3C) Dewpoint: 23F ( -5C) Relative Humidity: 88%
Winds from the E (100 degs) at 13 mph.
Pressure: 1019.6 millibars. Altimeter:30.06 inches of mercury.
The prevailing visibility was .5 miles.
There was 0.00 inches of precipitation in the past 6 hours.

The weather observed at CHICAGO, IL (KMDW) at 07:53 PM CST was:
The skies were unobserved.
The weather reported was moderate snow and fog.
Temperature: 25F ( -4C) Dewpoint: 23F ( -5C) Relative Humidity: 92%
Winds from the SW (230 degs) at 3 mph.
Pressure: 1019.1 millibars. Altimeter:30.04 inches of mercury.
The prevailing visibility was .5 miles.
There was 0.00 inches of precipitation in the past 6 hours.

The weather observed at CHICAGO, IL (KMDW) at 08:53 PM CST was:
The skies were cloudy.
The weather reported was light snow and fog.
Temperature: 24F ( -4C) Dewpoint: 22F ( -6C) Relative Humidity: 91%
Winds from the SW (230 degs) at 3 mph.
Pressure: 1018.3 millibars. Altimeter:30.02 inches of mercury.
The prevailing visibility was 3 miles.
There was 0.00 inches of precipitation in the past 6 hours.

the approach plate indicates that 4000 RVR or 3/4 mile is needed for this (unless I had a brain fart and am missing something...)

http://myairplane.com/databases/approach/pdfs/00081ILD31C.PDF

again, professional comments please.....just putting this out there for discussion

If lives can be saved and accidents avoided in the future because of this, thats what is called "learning every day" in aviation

We'll have to see what the tower gave him as he approached the Final Approach segment but I've heard that SWA has a Heads Up Display in that airplane which gave him special minimums of 3000ft RVR. Or the RVR was 4000ft when he started the approach. It'll come out in the investigation.

DC

 

[banned username 1]

OK everybody, now that we've vented and taken our shots and armchair quarterbacked and analyzed this accident to death from our vantage points from afar, let's be done.

We're seeing all of the traits of a pilot coming into play here: irreverance, curiosity, empathy, ego, and a large helping of pig-headdedness.

I think all sides have had their say and this thread could be a learning experience for everyone involved when sadly, this sort of thing happens again. It's an example of how to, and NOT how to contribute to a dialog.

What we're after here on these forums is looking for more "light" and less "heat". That would be a better use of our time. Someone looking to sucker punch a guy when he's down has my personal invitation to participate somewhere else. We're all professionals and as such means it's incumbent to act that way.

Frankly, you've beaten this subject to death given the amount of information that you have. It's not fun for the guys who we involved to see the second-guessing, nor for the guys who know them to see it either- especially when everybody's credentials are only as good as their honesty in their profile.

The more experience you have, the faster you'll not be drawn into commenting specifically about an accident like this, because you know that you don't have all the information. You'll also not comment because you've done things in your career where you know you did everything right and still came out with a less-than-anticipated outcome. But perhaps the biggest reason you'll shy away is because you've learned that sometimes s___ does actually happen.

Please, let's leave the heat behind now and concentrate on the light.

Thanks
UAL78

 

[SuperFLUF]

I respect your SOP's and can understand your statement. Can you just tell me do you guys use Auto-Brakes?

According to the 737-700 flight manual, in all braking conditions, max manual braking allows for a quicker stop than max autobrakes. So this is a moot point.

 

[A Squared]

Heavier aircraft, better braking abilities, and more powerful reverse thrust.

As an aside, being heavier desn't help. The increase in braking force due to additional weight is exactly negated by the additional inertia from the additional weight. Other things like reverse, ground spoilers, antiskid obviously do help.