Southwest looking to contain costs - article

[PCL_128]

When you state they destroyed the career he had planned, the question arises as to how realistic was the plan?

Going to work at an airline that only has an ATL domicile, I'd say it's pretty realistic to expect that you'll continue to be based in ATL. Leave it to SWA management to find out a way to screw hundreds upon hundreds of pilots out of the only domicile that their airline had when they went to work there.

 

[HowardBorden]

Going to work at an airline that only has an ATL domicile, I'd say it's pretty realistic to expect that you'll continue to be based in ATL. Leave it to SWA management to find out a way to screw hundreds upon hundreds of pilots out of the only domicile that their airline had when they went to work there.

Midwest only had Milwaukee, Vanguard only had Kansas City, Morris only had Salt Lake City, Aloha only had Honolulu, Champion only had Minneapolis-Saint Paul, Independence Air only had Washington Dulles, the list goes on for miles and miles.

And, for the record, the Atlanta domicile still exists.

 

[FlyinGuy]

Dan, by your logic it seems that you (HAL pilot) destroyed the careers of Aloha pilots by way of direct competition.

Always remember mergers suck for the seniority based employee. We are all pawns to management.

 

[scoreboardII]

Hmmm.... Did someone forget to logout of a hotel computer, or was 'saved" and had to file an ASAP? It's a 2- man airplane for a reason.

On a side note word on the crew bus is SWAPA is in receipt of the "Last best offer" or is this not true?

No, it's the first worst offer, nothing to see really, it sucks, negotiations 101 and normal, except the union decided to go public.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Really? That's not how I remembered it? If anything PCL totally had an "I told you so" experience during the whole process. You have to appreciate PCL is a total ALPA nerd. Knows the by laws and governance frontwards and backwards. When he questioned the actions and accessibility of the merger committee the Mighty Pres Hillman had him removed. This entire merger of pilot groups was a no win situation for all those involved. Lots of folks wanting to assign blame to whoever the could. Merger committees, Hillman, Chase. Members of each other's unions. But let's face it. None of us stood a chance.

Actually, I DO appreciate that PCL is a "total ALPA nerd." And I do believe that he knows the laws and governance frontwards and backwards, as well as a hell of a lot more about labor-management relations than most airline pilots.

And I have a lot of respect for him. Seriously. His informational posts are generally well-thought out, articulate and mainly unemotional. Certainly more so than the average FI poster. And he almost always avoids personal attacks, even when they are directed at him. Good for him.

However, I have a fundamental disagreement with his philosophy on a lot of stances. We agree on some things, but disagree on many others. And his stance on SLI expectations is one of them. A stance, which with his position as ALPA EVP, helped manage AirTran pilots' expectations into what turned out to be unrealistic and disappointing. And, trust me, I'm not leaving out the AT ALPA MEC's role. They apparently conspired to prevent the pilots from knowing all the pertinent facts and being able to vote on the first agreement, thinking they could score better. That's exactly what's alleged in the lawsuit, which also names PCL personally as one of those who did so. And even if you presume that every allegation in the lawsuit is an outright falsehood, his continued statements on FI demonstrate the inflated expectations that he held, with which he exerted influence over the rank and file AirTran pilot.

Whatever. Regardless, I believe that it is exactly his "ALPA nerdness" that is causing him to resign. He cares more about ALPA than he does about an actual airline career. I believe he is resigning because he can no longer be a union bigwig, especially an ALPA one. Were his career expectations changed? Certainly. As were my own, and every pilot at the combined company. For that matter, career expectations change as well as on a seemingly daily basis for every other airline pilot in the company when their company makes a strategic decision of any kind. But his airline career was not "destroyed" by anyone. His ALPA career may have been, but that's not the same thing at all.

Bubba

 

[Tripower455]

800 more pilots after SWAPA and GK conspired to jam them at the bottom?

LOL.... Conspired? Hardly.......

SWApA was notified of how it was gonna go down, and had even less to say about the entire SLI than the AT guys did. GK and Co wanted it done as quickly as possible, with as little strife as possible, hence the first offer pandering to the AT folks with nothing whatsoever for the SW folks. He knew that we'd overwhelmingly vote YES! for for whatever was on the table, even if the SW guys were all stapled to the bottom, because that's how we roll.

 

[canyonblue]

Leave it to SWA management to find out a way to screw hundreds upon hundreds of pilots out of the only domicile that their airline had when they went to work there.

I'm pretty sure you could of found thousands of SWA pilots that would have built a permanent fence around ATL, nobody gets in and nobody gets out. Not sure how that would have gone over with the AAI guys I've flown with that didn't live in ATL and are now thrilled that they don't have to commute to ATL, but you would be happy.

 

[canyonblue]

And, for the record, the Atlanta domicile still exists.

Why offer multiple bases around the country, that's stupid. He'd rather ATL had 7000 pilots there.

 

[waveflyer]

Going to work at an airline that only has an ATL domicile, I'd say it's pretty realistic to expect that you'll continue to be based in ATL. Leave it to SWA management to find out a way to screw hundreds upon hundreds of pilots out of the only domicile that their airline had when they went to work there.

This doesn't address neither of Howard or i's posts.

You thought air tran would continue on indefinitely?

You thought you could get hired on with any airline and have your domicile stay in existence?

Ask American how that SFO base is going. Back in the 90's when I first got hired, if you wanted to be Bay Area based, it was UAL, aa, or SWA in oak -

Change in the airlines is the ONLY constant.
We've had these seniority debates often, bc I for one, would love to have a career that transferred seniority among companies and paid us something greater than $40k if we switched, bc domicile's do float around from company to company- but if you live in a strong market, you know that it will be a base for some company.
I happen to love working for SWA, and would rather work here in any city vs others in my old hometown- but I'd say most pilots really couldn't care less what logo is on the tail as long as they make a good living on good schedules in the city they call home.

My suggestion is way too communist for me, but I do wish we had more professional freedom.

(Knowing full well that's a 'be careful what you wish for' statement)

That said, our current reality is our current reality, and you are choosing to view it as negatively as you are. It's very subjective, when in reality, the security of your paycheck got a lot better

 

[Nindiri]

I don't blame SWA for the merger or for shrinking Atlanta; those are business decisions and I understand that it's a risk that goes with the job and isn't personal. I do blame them for stealing my seniority, but what's done is done and I don't hold against individual SWA pilots now, since, for one thing, I don't know who voted for what. Best to be friendly to everyone now and make a pleasant work environment. And it has been a good group of guys to work with, no complaints on that.

At this point, I just show up for work on time, do my job, and go home. No trying to cheat the company, but no "warrior spirit" either. It's just a job now, about making as much money as possible for as little work as possible while having a good time.

 

[Tripower455]

I don't blame SWA for the merger or for shrinking Atlanta; those are business decisions and I understand that it's a risk that goes with the job and isn't personal. I do blame them for stealing my seniority, but what's done is done and I don't hold against individual SWA pilots now, since, for one thing, I don't know who voted for what. Best to be friendly to everyone now and make a pleasant work environment. And it has been a good group of guys to work with, no complaints on that.

At this point, I just show up for work on time, do my job, and go home. No trying to cheat the company, but no "warrior spirit" either. It's just a job now, about making as much money as possible for as little work as possible while having a good time.

Amen, especially the last paragraph. This place is a shell of it's former self!

 

[PCL_128]

However, I have a fundamental disagreement with his philosophy on a lot of stances. We agree on some things, but disagree on many others. And his stance on SLI expectations is one of them.

Disagreements on SLI expectations are a given in this business. That's why we have arbitrators to sort them out. Your CEO decided to interfere in a time honored process for resolving these disputes. That's the problem. Everyone would be better off today, including SWA management, if the process had been followed, because no one would be able to point fingers at each other, and would instead be able to point fingers at a neutral third party. What Gary did was create the most contentious SLI in airline history. And comically, he claims to have done this for "the culture." Hysterical.

A stance, which with his position as ALPA EVP, helped manage AirTran pilots' expectations into what turned out to be unrealistic and disappointing.

First, I don't acknowledge, and won't acknowledge, any claims that I'm an official in any capacity with ALPA. This is an anonymous forum, as it should be.

Second, you can't claim that anything "turned out to be unrealistic" when the process wasn't followed. We have no idea what would have "turned out" if the process had been continued and wasn't short-circuited by a CEO throwing around threats to end people's careers. It's entirely possible that you would have ended up being correct about the outcome of an arbitration, and it's entirely possible (and in my opinion, far more likely) that my expectations would have come to fruition in an arbitration. But we just don't know, and never will, so your claim is baseless.

And, trust me, I'm not leaving out the AT ALPA MEC's role. They apparently conspired to prevent the pilots from knowing all the pertinent facts

This is false. No one "conspired" to prevent anything, and all relevant information was provided to the pilots. ALPA recently filed a motion for summary judgment to dismiss that silly lawsuit, and I believe the slideshow presentation that the merger committee made at the open MEC meeting is included in the exhibits, which clearly shows that all of the information on the risks was accurately and fully presented to the pilots. There is also a deposition from your own VdV, stating that Gary did not make any threats in that July meeting, proving that the claims from the plaintiffs that the Atlanta rep lied about there not being any threats are false. You're putting far too much faith in the claims of a frivolous lawsuit.

Whatever. Regardless, I believe that it is exactly his "ALPA nerdness" that is causing him to resign. He cares more about ALPA than he does about an actual airline career. I believe he is resigning because he can no longer be a union bigwig, especially an ALPA one.

This is a silly claim, considering the fact that I came to work at AirTran long before ALPA was even a slim possibility here. Back when I came to work here, the likelihood of ALPA coming on the property was about the same as it is as SWA today: zero. It took an amazing confluence of events and incredible NPA incompetence to get ALPA on the property at AirTran, something that no one ever could have foretold. So the idea that someone who came to work at AirTran cared more about an "ALPA career" than an airline career is preposterous. I came to work at AirTran for two reasons: being based at home in Atlanta, and rapid seniority advancement. That's it.

 

[Jim]

Dan, by your logic it seems that you (HAL pilot) destroyed the careers of Aloha pilots by way of direct competition.

Always remember mergers suck for the seniority based employee. We are all pawns to management.

Actually we resurrected the careers of a large portion of them by hiring them at Hawaiian.

Great guys and they were a great addition to the pilot group.

 

[tankerhead]

Actually, I DO appreciate that PCL is a "total ALPA nerd." ...

And I have a lot of respect for him. Seriously. His informational posts are generally well-thought out, articulate and mainly unemotional. Certainly more so than the average FI poster. And he almost always avoids personal attacks, even when they are directed at him. Good for him.


Bubba

We aren't even talking about GK, and yet you see the need to jump in and guzzle some of his cum? Telling.

What was that Bubba? I know you said 'almost', but come on!!! (so-to-speak)

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

LOL.... Conspired? Hardly.......

SWApA was notified of how it was gonna go down, and had even less to say about the entire SLI than the AT guys did. GK and Co wanted it done as quickly as possible, with as little strife as possible, hence the first offer pandering to the AT folks with nothing whatsoever for the SW folks. He knew that we'd overwhelmingly vote YES! for for whatever was on the table, even if the SW guys were all stapled to the bottom, because that's how we roll.

As someone from the outside, you proved my point....."pandering to the AT folks" just confirms the arrogance over there.

 

[Tripower455]

As someone from the outside, you proved my point....."pandering to the AT folks" just confirms the arrogance over there.

Arrogance on who's part? GK wasn't the least bit worried about the WN guys messing the deal up, and not because it was a great deal for us. We, as a group, can be counted on to do whatever management wants. How you've interpreted that as arrogance is baffling. Idiots, maybe.......

 

[HowardBorden]

What Gary did was create the most contentious SLI in airline history.

Incorrect. He actually created the least contentious SLI in airline history. It actually went to a vote for member ratification on both sides (virtually unheard of) and garnered a nearly equal 84% affirmative vote from both sides. No one gets 84% on both sides of an SLI to agree to anything!

 

[PCL_128]

Incorrect. He actually created the least contentious SLI in airline history. It actually went to a vote for member ratification on both sides (virtually unheard of) and garnered a nearly equal 84% affirmative vote from both sides. No one gets 84% on both sides of an SLI to agree to anything!

You're either a troll or completely clueless. Hold a gun to someone's head and you can get them to vote for anything.

 

[SWA Bubba]

What was that Bubba? I know you said 'almost', but come on!!! (so-to-speak)

Well, clearly he has his moments.

Bubba

 

[HowardBorden]

You're either a troll or completely clueless. Hold a gun to someone's head and you can get them to vote for anything.

Ah yes, the gun to the head analogy. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it you that has claimed all along that the supposed threats were baseless and empty? You said all along there were no bullets for the fictitious gun so how can that be threatening?

 

[PCL_128]

Ah yes, the gun to the head analogy. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it you that has claimed all along that the supposed threats were baseless and empty? You said all along there were no bullets for the fictitious gun so how can that be threatening?

What I believe isn't what the vast majority of AirTran pilots believed. They were scared $hitless. I maintain to this day that Gary was simply engaged in normal bargaining behavior. Sadly, most pilots know little about bargaining, and when they get a threatening letter from a CEO, they don't react rationally.

 

[HowardBorden]

What I believe isn't what the vast majority of AirTran pilots believed. They were scared $hitless. I maintain to this day that Gary was simply engaged in normal bargaining behavior. Sadly, most pilots know little about bargaining, and when they get a threatening letter from a CEO, they don't react rationally.

Sorry, I forgot how much more rational you are than everyone else.

 

[Dan Roman]

Sorry, I forgot how much more rational you are than everyone else.

I don't think he comes across like that. He does come across as having a more insightful and accurate perspective than you. That's not a slam, clearly PCL was involved with the process, you are more of a spectator. Which is the case often in any of these kind of deals. There are always pilots that contribute a lot of time and energy towards representing their fellow pilots, and then their is the rest that second guess them and base their opinions on emotion rather than reality. Again, not slamming you personally, that's simply the nature of ALL pilot negotiations.

 

[waveflyer]

You're either a troll or completely clueless. Hold a gun to someone's head and you can get them to vote for anything.

Gun?
Wasn't the threat to just operate you separately and not integrate. Why would that scare any air tran pilot if things are so good there?

 

[islandhoper]

Well, this post sure belies your oft-claimed "neutrality," now doesn't it, Dan?

Airline acquisitions and mergers (as well as those of other industries) are a fact of life. Sometimes they're a product of necessity, sometimes a vehicle for growth and change, sometimes a competition-based transaction, and most of the time, some combination of all these and more. But I don't know of any (other than those orchestrated by Lorenzo) where the goal, or at least the known outcome, was company liquidation and employee dismissal, i.e. destroying people's careers and livelihoods.

Southwest did not "destroy" PCL's airline career, in any way, shape or form. For you to imply is just another example of baiting. Did his career expectations change? Absolutely, along with everyone else at the combined company. In fact, you could make the argument that every employee of every company has their career expectations change with every major decision undertaken by their management. Be that a growth spurt, a growth freeze, strategic planning, or even a new contract with different terms, for that matter.

The overwhelming majority of FOs at AirTran see the transaction as a positive thing for them. They got large pay raises, better working conditions, and work for a more stable company. PCL was a junior FO at AirTran. Now he'll be a somewhat more junior FO at Southwest (if he comes over, that is), but with all the positive benefits I listed. Hell, with all the newhires this year, he would probably be somewhere near exactly the same seniority at Southwest that he was at AirTran, with the extra money and stability. And that's a career "destroyed" in your eyes, Dan? Just because PCL is mad for other reasons doesn't translate into a "corporate entity" destroying any individual or his career. No matter how much PCL claims. And no matter how much you want it to be true, to pursue your anti-SWA agenda.

And more importantly, the only reason that PCL is actually indignant is that his union efforts amounted to exactly nothing. Actually, they amounted to less than nothing. He may have had his union career "destroyed," but his airline career, assuming he ever actually wanted one in the first place, was not. He could have just as good if not better of an airline career at Southwest as he did at AirTran. You and he can pretend it's not true, but it most assuredly is. He's probably embarrassed that he overplayed his hand in the negotiations, and now a lot of his own former constituent pilots dislike him. He was personally made to look foolish and arrogant for his union-related actions, and he is personally named as contributor to the abject failure of leadership alleged in the ongoing lawsuit against ALPA by AirTran pilots. So I can see why he might be reluctant to come over to Southwest. Everyone knows who he is and what he has done. But that's okay; I suspect he really didn't want to be an airline pilot anyway, so much as he wanted to be some sort of national level George Meany-wannabe.

Accordingly, you could not be more wrong, Dan. Neither Southwest Airlines, AirTran Airways, Gary Kelly, Bob Fornaro, or either of both airlines' boards who approved this acquisition, did anything to "destroy" PCL's airline career. I know you like to pretend your neutrality, but when you make asinine posts like this, you just show yourself as another agitator, trying to fan the flames. Good God, man, just sack up and admit your blatant partisanship. It's pretty obvious to the rest of us.

Bubba

Your balanced tone, does not speak the truth. "The vast majority" of AirTran Fo's does not see the transaction as positive. They welcome the pay raise, but also dread the seniority loss. Most of them will have to move and the vast majority will never upgrade or do so in their last year or two. No Bubba, the vast majority of Fo's is not happy and thinks we got unfairly integrated. We feel that because you think that Southwest is so much better: AirTran pilots deserved to join only at the bottom, that no captain was worthy of retaining his seat. That most Fo's since they got a payraise, should see their career limited to just being an Fo; heck a bunch of captain's too since they will never upgrade again...
Isn't it closer to the truth that "the vast majority" of SW pilots would much rather see every airtran guy at the bottom of the list? Isn't it true that when the MEC turned down the first offer, management added the innuendo of "if" we integrate to almost every communication? The plan B? Isn't it true that hundreds of RSW pilots rallied in Dallas in support of non integrating the pilots? (so I was told by a dozen of you) Isn't it true that every month for the past year, every upgrade at Southwest came on the back of a downgraded AirTran Captain? SW has not grown one airplane since they bought us, in fact there is less metal on property this year.
If the vast majority of FO's think that this was a good transaction, how come we don't see any of them here on FI supporting your case?
I do know 1 by the way... Great guy. However the left seat was not for him. Tried and failed twice. Did it on the third try but downgraded himself after 8 months. It just wasn't for him. He did feel that the transaction was great personally.
This is also a fact gentlemen, everyday that passes FAT guys know more about SW than RSW guys will ever know about AirTran. Every day we get disappointed by something. Everyday we have more truth in our hands while RSW guys keep lingering in what they think but not necessarily is the truth. To me SW is a shadow of what I used to think it was. Just lots of marketing and hot air to the employees. By the way, while you are reading this, the first SLI was crap. It is not that it wasn't enough. IS that it was wrong. -A Trap if you will. This has always been about seniority. That 86% of yes voters, did it with such indignation. And I don't think any amount of cool-aid will make them forget. While we feel that we lost so much, you ask "what did I get".
Here is what I think, for SouthWest to be successful in the future, it may have to start looking more and more like the Airtran of 3 years ago.

Sorry for the long post, I don't do it often.

 

[HowardBorden]

I don't think he comes across like that. He does come across as having a more insightful and accurate perspective than you. That's not a slam, clearly PCL was involved with the process, you are more of a spectator. Which is the case often in any of these kind of deals. There are always pilots that contribute a lot of time and energy towards representing their fellow pilots, and then their is the rest that second guess them and base their opinions on emotion rather than reality. Again, not slamming you personally, that's simply the nature of ALL pilot negotiations.

Sorry Dan, that's not an accurate perspective.

I have long agreed with PCL on this particular piece of the puzzle. I agree that SWA was simply involved in negotiating tactics in their dealings with AirTran. I know this because I know the SWA contract. There is absolutely zero provisions in our agreement to allow SWA to operate another airline with pilots not on the SWA seniority list. SWAPA maintains the absolutely tightest scope language in the industry. That fact alone completely nullifies any threats, real or otherwise, delivered by management. The real difference is the fact that I don't try and convince people that I am smarter than them on this subject. I know our contract and I know what is accepted and what is not. Operating AirTran as a separate entity was simply not allowed. Of course contracts can be altered but the empirical evidence at the time did not in any way shape or form support managements assertions about operating AT separately.

And for the record, PCL has denied or at least dodged the question relating to his position within the leadership group at AT ALPA. When it suits him to present the image that he is part of the inner circle, he promotes that scenario, however whenever he chooses to dodge any culpability for his actions relating to the SLI, he reverts to the "this is an anonymous web board" mantra. If he wants to stand up and take true ownership in his role in this fiasco then I would applaud his candor, but if he continues to skulk about in the shadows then he has no more perspective than those of us average line swine.

 

[Jim]

And for the record, PCL has denied or at least dodged the question relating to his position within the leadership group at AT ALPA. When it suits him to present the image that he is part of the inner circle, he promotes that scenario, however whenever he chooses to dodge any culpability for his actions relating to the SLI, he reverts to the "this is an anonymous web board" mantra. If he wants to stand up and take true ownership in his role in this fiasco then I would applaud his candor, but if he continues to skulk about in the shadows then he has no more perspective than those of us average line swine.

No. What PCL has done is make it very clear that his post here are his thoughts as an anonymous individual on an anonymous internet site and NOT as either an Air Tran or ALPA union official.

I and anyone that has ever been in any type of official or leadership position know exactly why he makes this distinction. He is free to post whatever he wants as an anonymous individual. He is not free to do so when acting in any offical capacity or after acknowledging any offical position. If you can't figure this out, go ask any SWAPA union official to explain it to you.

 

[ATLplt]

Islandhoper gets it as well. Excellent post, but you're never gonna convince them otherwise.

Bubba, you really need to stop telling us how we feel as a group. I guarantee the amount of frustration on this side of the partition is VASTLY different than what you believe or what you've been told. "Positive" is definitely not a word I'd use to describe it. "Coping" is more like it.

 

[PCL_128]

Gun?
Wasn't the threat to just operate you separately and not integrate. Why would that scare any air tran pilot if things are so good there?

No, the threat was kept intentionally vague to make it seem as though separate operations were a possibility, but liquidation was also a possibility.

 

[DUBLINFLYER]

PCL,
Take heart as there will be 500+ below you soon if you come over to the light!