Southwest looking to contain costs - article

[waveflyer]

You do know that a much bigger, older airline bought you right?
What did you want that could have made you a mid level FO again since you only had a couple years longevity when AT was bought? 2007 hire right?

 

[fr8doggie]

I'll start off by saying it is all your choice, and I don't blame you for sticking around and taking a paid vacation even if you don't plan on making the transition. However, don't act like you are taking the high road and being "honest" in how you do it. If you were being honest in your dealings with the company which you bear so much contempt, you would disclose your intentions to leave and let them decide how to handle the situation. Again, I don't blame you for doing it, I just take exception with you claiming you are being honest while doing it. Omission can also be a lie.

I have the feeling that SWA management is fully aware of the content of these message boards.

 

[humveedriver]

. He's probably embarrassed that he overplayed his hand in the negotiations, and now a lot of his own former constituent pilots dislike him. He was personally made to look foolish and arrogant for his union-related actions, and he is personally named as contributor to the abject failure of leadership alleged in the ongoing lawsuit against ALPA by AirTran pilots.



Bubba

Really? That's not how I remembered it? If anything PCL totally had an "I told you so" experience during the whole process. You have to appreciate PCL is a total ALPA nerd. Knows the by laws and governance frontwards and backwards. When he questioned the actions and accessibility of the merger committee the Mighty Pres Hillman had him removed. This entire merger of pilot groups was a no win situation for all those involved. Lots of folks wanting to assign blame to whoever the could. Merger committees, Hillman, Chase. Members of each other's unions. But let's face it. None of us stood a chance.

 

[redflyer65]

You do know that a much bigger, older airline bought you right?
What did you want that could have made you a mid level FO again since you only had a couple years longevity when AT was bought? 2007 hire right?

He had to have relative or DOH, and neither one was going to happen.

 

[PCL_128]

You do know that a much bigger, older airline bought you right?

By now you must know that I don't give a $hit. Right?

What did you want that could have made you a mid level FO again

I think you know what my opinion was of what we were going to get in arbitration. No need to hash it out again.

 

[waveflyer]

It's just entertaining to hear you admit that you wanted and thought you'd get relative seniority and that your worst case scenario would be date of hire

It would be funnier if so many of your peers didn't believe and now feel screwed bc that didn't happen when in reality you got as good a deal as you'd have ever got in arbitration

Good luck on that resignation my man.

 

[Dan Roman]

Well, this post sure belies your oft-claimed "neutrality," now doesn't it, Dan?

Airline acquisitions and mergers (as well as those of other industries) are a fact of life. Sometimes they're a product of necessity, sometimes a vehicle for growth and change, sometimes a competition-based transaction, and most of the time, some combination of all these and more. But I don't know of any (other than those orchestrated by Lorenzo) where the goal, or at least the known outcome, was company liquidation and employee dismissal, i.e. destroying people's careers and livelihoods.

Southwest did not "destroy" PCL's airline career, in any way, shape or form. For you to imply is just another example of baiting. Did his career expectations change? Absolutely, along with everyone else at the combined company. In fact, you could make the argument that every employee of every company has their career expectations change with every major decision undertaken by their management. Be that a growth spurt, a growth freeze, strategic planning, or even a new contract with different terms, for that matter.

The overwhelming majority of FOs at AirTran see the transaction as a positive thing for them. They got large pay raises, better working conditions, and work for a more stable company. PCL was a junior FO at AirTran. Now he'll be a somewhat more junior FO at Southwest (if he comes over, that is), but with all the positive benefits I listed. Hell, with all the newhires this year, he would probably be somewhere near exactly the same seniority at Southwest that he was at AirTran, with the extra money and stability. And that's a career "destroyed" in your eyes, Dan? Just because PCL is mad for other reasons doesn't translate into a "corporate entity" destroying any individual or his career. No matter how much PCL claims. And no matter how much you want it to be true, to pursue your anti-SWA agenda.

And more importantly, the only reason that PCL is actually indignant is that his union efforts amounted to exactly nothing. Actually, they amounted to less than nothing. He may have had his union career "destroyed," but his airline career, assuming he ever actually wanted one in the first place, was not. He could have just as good if not better of an airline career at Southwest as he did at AirTran. You and he can pretend it's not true, but it most assuredly is. He's probably embarrassed that he overplayed his hand in the negotiations, and now a lot of his own former constituent pilots dislike him. He was personally made to look foolish and arrogant for his union-related actions, and he is personally named as contributor to the abject failure of leadership alleged in the ongoing lawsuit against ALPA by AirTran pilots. So I can see why he might be reluctant to come over to Southwest. Everyone knows who he is and what he has done. But that's okay; I suspect he really didn't want to be an airline pilot anyway, so much as he wanted to be some sort of national level George Meany-wannabe.

Accordingly, you could not be more wrong, Dan. Neither Southwest Airlines, AirTran Airways, Gary Kelly, Bob Fornaro, or either of both airlines' boards who approved this acquisition, did anything to "destroy" PCL's airline career. I know you like to pretend your neutrality, but when you make asinine posts like this, you just show yourself as another agitator, trying to fan the flames. Good God, man, just sack up and admit your blatant partisanship. It's pretty obvious to the rest of us.

Bubba

Bubba, dude, this can be summed up by your post obviously indicates your perspective on SWA should be everyone's. It's not, if someone wanted a career with AirTran and their domicles than obviously getting merged into SWA is not a step up. It is in fact SWA destroying someone's career choice. If someone wants to fly for SWA than more power to them, but if that's not what they want then SWA forcing them into it (in the name of increasing shareholder equity) is ruining that pilots career path. My opinion comes from the perspective that someone's choice of airline is based on many factors and waves comment that SWA is " older and bigger " is somehow better? I would submit that that argument makes as much sense here as it would in choosing a girlfriend, an older bigger airline could easily be entering a period of stagnation. SWA's golden years were when they were younger, smaller and growing quickly. They appear to be entering a period of fewer growth opportunities.
You guys simply can't make the argument being merged into SWA is a good deal if that's not what they want and you guys have a history of getting insulted when someone doesn't think SWA is not for them.

 

[ATLplt]

Dan gets it. Excellent post!

 

[waveflyer]

So it's all subjective then dan.

Seems to me 85% + of them wanted it to happen.

An honest question, we know there are niche pilots who found that in air tran. But what do you think the majority wanted?

And what makes any airline pilot believe that bc they didn't "want" an acquisition or merger, that it somehow wouldn't happen anyway. Especially to an airline like air tran. They were the very definition of a takeover target. So why aren't pilots who decided to work for a clear takeover target, not responsible for that choice?

I've seen those niches come and go within companies many times without M&A's occurring and without a company liquidating. Air Wisconsin pilots used to apply bc they wanted to live in Denver. Company didn't fold, just got out of Denver. Same thing with the old continental. The idea that a SLI should be at all affected by a small percentage of pilot niches is pretty ridiculous. I had a sweet deal as a check airman back in the commuter days. Then the company stopped hiring and my well dried up. Had another sweet deal with my first major- then got furloughed. I've got no patience for pilots who are b/tching about SWA buying them when so many worse things can and often happen to pilot careers.
Poor poor air tran pilots!
Gmafb

And ATL- SWA will have hired over 800 pilots since acquiring you by the end of 2014, with solid rumors they may hire another 500 on top of that. Why would you believe dan, and not Wall Street and the company and your own common sense about swa's growth ability. The largest domestic carrier in the US made a decision to fly international and has 5 huge initiatives that are wrapping up in the coming year, and you think there's no growth on the horizon? It's already happening, and was absolutely predictable.

Grow up. Very few airline pilots will not have a M or A happen to them. Very few.
Including you Dan. And absolutely nobody in control of those transactions care if you "want" them to happen or not.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

How Rich.....Wave pontificating to an AT pilot about growing up.

Ooooooo. 800 more pilots after SWAPA and GK conspired to jam them at the bottom? And You get to work for Southwest? Such a deal!!!!

My favorite nugget, "largest domestic carrier made a decision to fly international". This guy wants to whip out his unit so bad. "Growth ability".....even better! (They just got auto throttles, VNAV, and San Juan so who's gonna argue)

We need a new GL and judging by the number of posts, Wave is well on his way....never missed opportunities to give his opinion.

GMAFB

 

[FIREMAN]

"Seems to me 85% + of them wanted it to happen."

85% voted out of fear of having no job!

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

"Seems to me 85% + of them wanted it to happen."

85% voted out of fear of having no job!

Yeah....kinda like the North Korean "elections"

1) Kim Jong Un ______
2) Or ELSE ________

 

[freightdogfred]

Hey Ty, I wish you good luck in your transition...see ya on the line... I mean that all kidding aside...and PCL, the FATs I fly with speak highly of your tenacity, hope you change your mind and keep up the good work as a SWA pilot advocate...and for the record, I can use all the help I can get staying out of trouble...especially during taxi....good luck guys adios...

Hmmm.... Did someone forget to logout of a hotel computer, or was 'saved" and had to file an ASAP? It's a 2- man airplane for a reason.

On a side note word on the crew bus is SWAPA is in receipt of the "Last best offer" or is this not true?

 

[redflyer65]

My favorite nugget, "largest domestic carrier made a decision to fly international". This guy wants to whip out his unit so bad. "Growth ability".....even better! (They just got auto throttles, VNAV, and San Juan so who's gonna argue)


GMAFB

How is that an arrogant statement Bill? Your just trying to throw poo at facts.

Fact, SW is the largest domestic carrier.
Fact, SW decided to go international with more cities to come.
Fact, by default...that will mean growth.

Auto Throttles and Vnav? We've been using those for over three years. Who cares....except you I guess.

I don't see where Wave stated any of this was better than anyone else, but apparently that's the way you interpreted it.

 

[redflyer65]

On a side note word on the crew bus is SWAPA is in receipt of the "Last best offer" or is this not true?

False. Not even close to a final offer. Thanks for the spin though.

 

[freightdogfred]

False. Not even close to a final offer. Thanks for the spin though.

Not trying to spin anything, just asking a question zippy.
I'll take your glib response as a "no".

 

[tankerhead]

False. Not even close to a final offer. Thanks for the spin though.

Jumpy, eh?

 

[Dan Roman]

So it's all subjective then dan.

Seems to me 85% + of them wanted it to happen.

An honest question, we know there are niche pilots who found that in air tran. But what do you think the majority wanted?

And what makes any airline pilot believe that bc they didn't "want" an acquisition or merger, that it somehow wouldn't happen anyway. Especially to an airline like air tran. They were the very definition of a takeover target. So why aren't pilots who decided to work for a clear takeover target, not responsible for that choice?

I've seen those niches come and go within companies many times without M&A's occurring and without a company liquidating. Air Wisconsin pilots used to apply bc they wanted to live in Denver. Company didn't fold, just got out of Denver. Same thing with the old continental. The idea that a SLI should be at all affected by a small percentage of pilot niches is pretty ridiculous. I had a sweet deal as a check airman back in the commuter days. Then the company stopped hiring and my well dried up. Had another sweet deal with my first major- then got furloughed. I've got no patience for pilots who are b/tching about SWA buying them when so many worse things can and often happen to pilot careers.
Poor poor air tran pilots!
Gmafb

And ATL- SWA will have hired over 800 pilots since acquiring you by the end of 2014, with solid rumors they may hire another 500 on top of that. Why would you believe dan, and not Wall Street and the company and your own common sense about swa's growth ability. The largest domestic carrier in the US made a decision to fly international and has 5 huge initiatives that are wrapping up in the coming year, and you think there's no growth on the horizon? It's already happening, and was absolutely predictable.

Grow up. Very few airline pilots will not have a M or A happen to them. Very few.
Including you Dan. And absolutely nobody in control of those transactions care if you "want" them to happen or not.

You bring up some good points Wave, however they are all only true if someone was staying at the newly merged airline. My point was PCL owes absolutely nothing to SWA. They destroyed the career he had planned to benefit their stockholders (or attempt to benefit, time will tell). So I made the point that he is certainly justified in taking whatever course of action that is available to him that benefits him the most and he certainly doesn't owe SWA an ounce of loyality.
I try to put myself in someone elses shoes when considering a perspective, I can see were you are coming from as a SWA pilot. That said, you are very happy there and I don't blame you for that. But suppose, hypothetically for sure, but suppose UAL decided to buy SWA for the domestic feed. You are merged in with a 10 year fence around all widebody flying and lost a fair amount of seniority in the process, how would you feel? (Again, I'm not suggesting it will happen, that scenario is about as likely as SWA merging with HAL), but the point is if your career was turned upside down by a few people trying to increase the value of their stock, how would you react?

 

[SWA Bubba]

Bubba, dude, this can be summed up by your post obviously indicates your perspective on SWA should be everyone's.

Never said that. Never. I know lots of people, you included, never wanted a career at Southwest. Good for them and you; I hope they're all happy. However, nobody ever promised anyone in an airline career, or any career for that matter, that they'd have the same career expectations forever, or that all of their dreams would come true the way they wanted.

It's not, if someone wanted a career with AirTran and their domicles than obviously getting merged into SWA is not a step up. It is in fact SWA destroying someone's career choice.

In fact, it is not.

You keep saying it that way to push your idea that Southwest is some big, bad, dream killer working to screw people over, because it supports your agenda. You neglect to consider that there are two partners in every acquisition or merger. Two, and not always with equal desire. Have you ever heard of a "break-up fee," Dan? This fee exists because both companies spend money (sometimes a lot) preparing and executing the transaction, and it sometimes goes south and that money is down the drain. They negotiate this "break-up" fee ahead of time to recover some of this lost capital, and it is generally paid by the more insistent suitor to the other, which generally equates to the larger paying the smaller in the case of an acquisition. Guess who would have paid in the case that this particular transaction went south? AirTran would have paid Southwest. Surprised? AirTran's management wanted to be acquired by Southwest so bad, that they agreed to pay Southwest if it couldn't be made to happen.

So when you talk about someone who wanted a career at AirTran, and that "some corporate entity" destroyed their career choice, you might stop to think that it was AirTran's management who couldn't friggin' wait to sell them to Southwest. I'd say that when your boss goes out of his way to sell you, I think it's pretty funny of you to blame the other party for "destroying" the career you had working for this first boss. Wouldn't you agree?

If someone wants to fly for SWA than more power to them, but if that's not what they want then SWA forcing them into it (in the name of increasing shareholder equity) is ruining that pilots career path. My opinion comes from the perspective that someone's choice of airline is based on many factors and waves comment that SWA is " older and bigger " is somehow better?

I think we've already covered who "forced" anyone into anything, but regardless, crap happens in every airline (and other) career. And certainly, choice of airlines is a subjective thing, but in this case it is an industry-accepted fact that Southwest is a much more stable company than AirTran was. Don't ask me or any other pilot (we all have our prejudices, you and I included, Dan), but rather what industry analysts overwhelmingly believed.

You guys simply can't make the argument being merged into SWA is a good deal if that's not what they want and you guys have a history of getting insulted when someone doesn't think SWA is not for them.

Nope, not trying to make this argument at all. Not in the slightest. I know that Southwest isn't for every pilot, and I never tried to indicate otherwise, despite your incessant claims. However, it is a fact that the majority of former AirTran FOs do believe that being merged into SWA is a good deal. Not all, of course, but most. But the point is, that no matter how much you want it to be true, the fact is, that Southwest is not "destroying" anyone's career.

The bottom line for PCL is that he wouldn't accept a career in this industry, other than at exactly his own terms. Good for him; he certainly has the right to quit anytime he wants. However, I think we both know that pilots don't generally get to dictate exactly how their career should or will go. Did you?

Nobody in this industry, and I mean nobody, gets exactly what they wanted. Especially when your career expectations change due to economic and other industry factors. But, according to your SWA-slamming "logic," anytime your career expectations are changed against your will, then some corporate entity is "destroying your career in the name of increasing shareholder equity." Right? Isn't that what you're saying? So I guess that includes any pilot who ever got displaced out of his chosen domicile (like PCL and countless others), lost seniority due to an acquisition/merger (like PCL and countless others), got stagnated or downgraded (like me and countless others), or otherwise had their career expectations changed due to economic or industry-related issues--all of those pilots had their "career destroyed" by some management, and "in the name of increasing shareholder equity." 'Cause apparently we were all promised a guaranteed career path when we signed on.

Hopefully you'll advocate for all these other "destroyed" pilots, just as strongly as you do in cases when you get to rail against Southwest.

Bubba

 

[HowardBorden]

My point was PCL owes absolutely nothing to SWA. They destroyed the career he had planned to benefit their stockholders (or attempt to benefit, time will tell).

No one owes a corporation anything, that is obvious. If you don't like where you are working you quit and find work elsewhere.

When you state they destroyed the career he had planned, the question arises as to how realistic was the plan? If one cannot foresee the possibility that the small airline where they are employed is a possible target for acquisition, then the plan was not very well thought out in the first place.

Can one actually ever have a realistic belief that the career they had planned will not change over time. Ask the employees of Pan Am or TWA or Peoples Express or a myriad of others how the career they had planned turned out. Corporations go out of business, airlines close domiciles, companies declare bankruptcy, corporations get acquired. It happens. Actually it happens with great frequency. As a matter of fact the realistic viewpoint would be one of, "I hope things don't change so much at the airline of my choice that I will eventually no longer want to work there."

You keep placing the blame squarely at the feet of SWA. This was not a hostile take over. Can't one assert that AirTran destroyed the career he had planned to benefit their stockholders?

In the end no one destroyed his career, they simply altered it. In all actuality the combined SWA/AirTran is most assuredly a stronger, healthier entity better suited to be profitable in the current marketplace.

That being said, we work in a free society where we are not forced to remain working for a company that no longer suits our wants and needs. To state that a career was destroyed simply is not accurate. That career is there ready and waiting if he wants it, he has simply chosen not to accept it. Destroy by it's very definition means to put an end to the existence of something and that very clearly has not happened.