Southwest looking to contain costs - article

[PCL_128]

When you state they destroyed the career he had planned, the question arises as to how realistic was the plan?

Going to work at an airline that only has an ATL domicile, I'd say it's pretty realistic to expect that you'll continue to be based in ATL. Leave it to SWA management to find out a way to screw hundreds upon hundreds of pilots out of the only domicile that their airline had when they went to work there.

 

[HowardBorden]

Going to work at an airline that only has an ATL domicile, I'd say it's pretty realistic to expect that you'll continue to be based in ATL. Leave it to SWA management to find out a way to screw hundreds upon hundreds of pilots out of the only domicile that their airline had when they went to work there.

Midwest only had Milwaukee, Vanguard only had Kansas City, Morris only had Salt Lake City, Aloha only had Honolulu, Champion only had Minneapolis-Saint Paul, Independence Air only had Washington Dulles, the list goes on for miles and miles.

And, for the record, the Atlanta domicile still exists.

 

[FlyinGuy]

Dan, by your logic it seems that you (HAL pilot) destroyed the careers of Aloha pilots by way of direct competition.

Always remember mergers suck for the seniority based employee. We are all pawns to management.

 

[scoreboardII]

Hmmm.... Did someone forget to logout of a hotel computer, or was 'saved" and had to file an ASAP? It's a 2- man airplane for a reason.

On a side note word on the crew bus is SWAPA is in receipt of the "Last best offer" or is this not true?

No, it's the first worst offer, nothing to see really, it sucks, negotiations 101 and normal, except the union decided to go public.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Really? That's not how I remembered it? If anything PCL totally had an "I told you so" experience during the whole process. You have to appreciate PCL is a total ALPA nerd. Knows the by laws and governance frontwards and backwards. When he questioned the actions and accessibility of the merger committee the Mighty Pres Hillman had him removed. This entire merger of pilot groups was a no win situation for all those involved. Lots of folks wanting to assign blame to whoever the could. Merger committees, Hillman, Chase. Members of each other's unions. But let's face it. None of us stood a chance.

Actually, I DO appreciate that PCL is a "total ALPA nerd." And I do believe that he knows the laws and governance frontwards and backwards, as well as a hell of a lot more about labor-management relations than most airline pilots.

And I have a lot of respect for him. Seriously. His informational posts are generally well-thought out, articulate and mainly unemotional. Certainly more so than the average FI poster. And he almost always avoids personal attacks, even when they are directed at him. Good for him.

However, I have a fundamental disagreement with his philosophy on a lot of stances. We agree on some things, but disagree on many others. And his stance on SLI expectations is one of them. A stance, which with his position as ALPA EVP, helped manage AirTran pilots' expectations into what turned out to be unrealistic and disappointing. And, trust me, I'm not leaving out the AT ALPA MEC's role. They apparently conspired to prevent the pilots from knowing all the pertinent facts and being able to vote on the first agreement, thinking they could score better. That's exactly what's alleged in the lawsuit, which also names PCL personally as one of those who did so. And even if you presume that every allegation in the lawsuit is an outright falsehood, his continued statements on FI demonstrate the inflated expectations that he held, with which he exerted influence over the rank and file AirTran pilot.

Whatever. Regardless, I believe that it is exactly his "ALPA nerdness" that is causing him to resign. He cares more about ALPA than he does about an actual airline career. I believe he is resigning because he can no longer be a union bigwig, especially an ALPA one. Were his career expectations changed? Certainly. As were my own, and every pilot at the combined company. For that matter, career expectations change as well as on a seemingly daily basis for every other airline pilot in the company when their company makes a strategic decision of any kind. But his airline career was not "destroyed" by anyone. His ALPA career may have been, but that's not the same thing at all.

Bubba

 

[Tripower455]

800 more pilots after SWAPA and GK conspired to jam them at the bottom?

LOL.... Conspired? Hardly.......

SWApA was notified of how it was gonna go down, and had even less to say about the entire SLI than the AT guys did. GK and Co wanted it done as quickly as possible, with as little strife as possible, hence the first offer pandering to the AT folks with nothing whatsoever for the SW folks. He knew that we'd overwhelmingly vote YES! for for whatever was on the table, even if the SW guys were all stapled to the bottom, because that's how we roll.

 

[canyonblue]

Leave it to SWA management to find out a way to screw hundreds upon hundreds of pilots out of the only domicile that their airline had when they went to work there.

I'm pretty sure you could of found thousands of SWA pilots that would have built a permanent fence around ATL, nobody gets in and nobody gets out. Not sure how that would have gone over with the AAI guys I've flown with that didn't live in ATL and are now thrilled that they don't have to commute to ATL, but you would be happy.

 

[canyonblue]

And, for the record, the Atlanta domicile still exists.

Why offer multiple bases around the country, that's stupid. He'd rather ATL had 7000 pilots there.

 

[waveflyer]

Going to work at an airline that only has an ATL domicile, I'd say it's pretty realistic to expect that you'll continue to be based in ATL. Leave it to SWA management to find out a way to screw hundreds upon hundreds of pilots out of the only domicile that their airline had when they went to work there.

This doesn't address neither of Howard or i's posts.

You thought air tran would continue on indefinitely?

You thought you could get hired on with any airline and have your domicile stay in existence?

Ask American how that SFO base is going. Back in the 90's when I first got hired, if you wanted to be Bay Area based, it was UAL, aa, or SWA in oak -

Change in the airlines is the ONLY constant.
We've had these seniority debates often, bc I for one, would love to have a career that transferred seniority among companies and paid us something greater than $40k if we switched, bc domicile's do float around from company to company- but if you live in a strong market, you know that it will be a base for some company.
I happen to love working for SWA, and would rather work here in any city vs others in my old hometown- but I'd say most pilots really couldn't care less what logo is on the tail as long as they make a good living on good schedules in the city they call home.

My suggestion is way too communist for me, but I do wish we had more professional freedom.

(Knowing full well that's a 'be careful what you wish for' statement)

That said, our current reality is our current reality, and you are choosing to view it as negatively as you are. It's very subjective, when in reality, the security of your paycheck got a lot better

 

[Nindiri]

I don't blame SWA for the merger or for shrinking Atlanta; those are business decisions and I understand that it's a risk that goes with the job and isn't personal. I do blame them for stealing my seniority, but what's done is done and I don't hold against individual SWA pilots now, since, for one thing, I don't know who voted for what. Best to be friendly to everyone now and make a pleasant work environment. And it has been a good group of guys to work with, no complaints on that.

At this point, I just show up for work on time, do my job, and go home. No trying to cheat the company, but no "warrior spirit" either. It's just a job now, about making as much money as possible for as little work as possible while having a good time.

 

[Tripower455]

I don't blame SWA for the merger or for shrinking Atlanta; those are business decisions and I understand that it's a risk that goes with the job and isn't personal. I do blame them for stealing my seniority, but what's done is done and I don't hold against individual SWA pilots now, since, for one thing, I don't know who voted for what. Best to be friendly to everyone now and make a pleasant work environment. And it has been a good group of guys to work with, no complaints on that.

At this point, I just show up for work on time, do my job, and go home. No trying to cheat the company, but no "warrior spirit" either. It's just a job now, about making as much money as possible for as little work as possible while having a good time.

Amen, especially the last paragraph. This place is a shell of it's former self!

 

[PCL_128]

However, I have a fundamental disagreement with his philosophy on a lot of stances. We agree on some things, but disagree on many others. And his stance on SLI expectations is one of them.

Disagreements on SLI expectations are a given in this business. That's why we have arbitrators to sort them out. Your CEO decided to interfere in a time honored process for resolving these disputes. That's the problem. Everyone would be better off today, including SWA management, if the process had been followed, because no one would be able to point fingers at each other, and would instead be able to point fingers at a neutral third party. What Gary did was create the most contentious SLI in airline history. And comically, he claims to have done this for "the culture." Hysterical.

A stance, which with his position as ALPA EVP, helped manage AirTran pilots' expectations into what turned out to be unrealistic and disappointing.

First, I don't acknowledge, and won't acknowledge, any claims that I'm an official in any capacity with ALPA. This is an anonymous forum, as it should be.

Second, you can't claim that anything "turned out to be unrealistic" when the process wasn't followed. We have no idea what would have "turned out" if the process had been continued and wasn't short-circuited by a CEO throwing around threats to end people's careers. It's entirely possible that you would have ended up being correct about the outcome of an arbitration, and it's entirely possible (and in my opinion, far more likely) that my expectations would have come to fruition in an arbitration. But we just don't know, and never will, so your claim is baseless.

And, trust me, I'm not leaving out the AT ALPA MEC's role. They apparently conspired to prevent the pilots from knowing all the pertinent facts

This is false. No one "conspired" to prevent anything, and all relevant information was provided to the pilots. ALPA recently filed a motion for summary judgment to dismiss that silly lawsuit, and I believe the slideshow presentation that the merger committee made at the open MEC meeting is included in the exhibits, which clearly shows that all of the information on the risks was accurately and fully presented to the pilots. There is also a deposition from your own VdV, stating that Gary did not make any threats in that July meeting, proving that the claims from the plaintiffs that the Atlanta rep lied about there not being any threats are false. You're putting far too much faith in the claims of a frivolous lawsuit.

Whatever. Regardless, I believe that it is exactly his "ALPA nerdness" that is causing him to resign. He cares more about ALPA than he does about an actual airline career. I believe he is resigning because he can no longer be a union bigwig, especially an ALPA one.

This is a silly claim, considering the fact that I came to work at AirTran long before ALPA was even a slim possibility here. Back when I came to work here, the likelihood of ALPA coming on the property was about the same as it is as SWA today: zero. It took an amazing confluence of events and incredible NPA incompetence to get ALPA on the property at AirTran, something that no one ever could have foretold. So the idea that someone who came to work at AirTran cared more about an "ALPA career" than an airline career is preposterous. I came to work at AirTran for two reasons: being based at home in Atlanta, and rapid seniority advancement. That's it.

 

[Jim]

Dan, by your logic it seems that you (HAL pilot) destroyed the careers of Aloha pilots by way of direct competition.

Always remember mergers suck for the seniority based employee. We are all pawns to management.

Actually we resurrected the careers of a large portion of them by hiring them at Hawaiian.

Great guys and they were a great addition to the pilot group.

 

[tankerhead]

Actually, I DO appreciate that PCL is a "total ALPA nerd." ...

And I have a lot of respect for him. Seriously. His informational posts are generally well-thought out, articulate and mainly unemotional. Certainly more so than the average FI poster. And he almost always avoids personal attacks, even when they are directed at him. Good for him.


Bubba

We aren't even talking about GK, and yet you see the need to jump in and guzzle some of his cum? Telling.

What was that Bubba? I know you said 'almost', but come on!!! (so-to-speak)

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

LOL.... Conspired? Hardly.......

SWApA was notified of how it was gonna go down, and had even less to say about the entire SLI than the AT guys did. GK and Co wanted it done as quickly as possible, with as little strife as possible, hence the first offer pandering to the AT folks with nothing whatsoever for the SW folks. He knew that we'd overwhelmingly vote YES! for for whatever was on the table, even if the SW guys were all stapled to the bottom, because that's how we roll.

As someone from the outside, you proved my point....."pandering to the AT folks" just confirms the arrogance over there.

 

[Tripower455]

As someone from the outside, you proved my point....."pandering to the AT folks" just confirms the arrogance over there.

Arrogance on who's part? GK wasn't the least bit worried about the WN guys messing the deal up, and not because it was a great deal for us. We, as a group, can be counted on to do whatever management wants. How you've interpreted that as arrogance is baffling. Idiots, maybe.......

 

[HowardBorden]

What Gary did was create the most contentious SLI in airline history.

Incorrect. He actually created the least contentious SLI in airline history. It actually went to a vote for member ratification on both sides (virtually unheard of) and garnered a nearly equal 84% affirmative vote from both sides. No one gets 84% on both sides of an SLI to agree to anything!

 

[PCL_128]

Incorrect. He actually created the least contentious SLI in airline history. It actually went to a vote for member ratification on both sides (virtually unheard of) and garnered a nearly equal 84% affirmative vote from both sides. No one gets 84% on both sides of an SLI to agree to anything!

You're either a troll or completely clueless. Hold a gun to someone's head and you can get them to vote for anything.

 

[SWA Bubba]

What was that Bubba? I know you said 'almost', but come on!!! (so-to-speak)

Well, clearly he has his moments.

Bubba

 

[HowardBorden]

You're either a troll or completely clueless. Hold a gun to someone's head and you can get them to vote for anything.

Ah yes, the gun to the head analogy. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it you that has claimed all along that the supposed threats were baseless and empty? You said all along there were no bullets for the fictitious gun so how can that be threatening?