Southwest Line on Credit?

[waveflyer]

Yes.



Actually, I've answered that question repeatedly. You just don't like the answer, so you keep repeating the question.

Fair: Ratio by category and status.

Acceptable: Anything determined by the neutral panel of arbitrators.

Explain this better:

Fair: Ratio by category and status.

 

[SWA Bubba]

You forgot a couple of things that you and the rest of the Kool Aid Klan ALWAYS leave out.

(1) The above formula stapled almost every AT FO to the bottom of the list.
(2) Although the 717 captain slots were retained, no AT pilot would be able to upgrade to 737CA until the 2005 SWA hires had an opportunity to upgrade...whether it took two years or twenty.

Oh by the way, when the 717s were subsequently announced that they were gone, I'd bet number (2) would've been enacted so that SWAPA would've captured all the CA seats just like they did in deal that was ratified.

Both deals sucked from the AT point of view. Why can't you guys understand that... If you think that AT is huge supporter of ALPA, you would be wrong. The unhappiness with the process is an individual, personal thing, not as a result of ALPA propaganda. PCL is one of the few big ALPA guys we have.

Phred

I "forgot" nothing of the sort.

(1) The formula did NOT "staple almost every [AirTran] FO to the bottom of the list." What a bunch of self-serving crap. Read it again. The first ~450 former AirTran FOs got feathered in exactly as stated, with a varying loss of seniority starting at just about 2.5 years, then worked up to about 3 years, then down to a little less than two years for the last group. Every single one of those ~450 AirTran FOs has original, pre-Sept 2011 Southwest guys behind them on the list. Then on the list, the loss of less than two years' seniority caused the next ~370 to be behind the last FO on the orig pre-Sept 2011 SWA list. Finally the last ~80 AirTran FOs, who were actually hired more than a year after our last FO, were added next, as the last of both companies' pre-Sept 2011 pilots. Did you want those guys to gain seniority? Or are you just bitching about those ~370 who lost AirTran seniority from 22.5 months down fairly linearly to only 5 months which put them behind the last orig SWA guy? Really? THAT's your definition of "stapling almost every FO to the bottom of the list"?

(2) Here I don't even know what you're trying to get at. Perhaps you're confusing or mixing the two agreements. Twenty years? What are you talking about? There is no stipulation on timing for ANY Southwest guy to upgrade. None. Obviously all upgrades through the end of 2014 will be orig Southwest guys, but that's only until the specified date in the agreement. And it certainly won't include all of our 2005 hires (there were lots of them). The first AirTran guy to upgrade at Southwest will do so in 2015, and in fact, nobody BUT former AirTran guys will upgrade for quite a while after that until all the AirTran guys above the ~50% line have upgraded.

Then it will be EXACTLY as I said, with nothing "left out." Any pilot, orig Southwest or orig AirTran, will be able to bid any seat and any base that his or her seniority can hold. No fences, no gates, no limitations, no 20-year whatever-you-were-talking-about. You don't have to drink any Koolaid, but you also can't pretend "facts" that aren't true just to make your bitching seem more pathetic.

I'm sorry you were hoping for an AirTran upgrade in five years, and then found out that it doesn't translate to a Southwest upgrade with your five years of AirTran service. It takes longer than that to upgrade here. And then even a little longer for you, because of the loss of seniority to equate AirTran service with Southwest service, when on the Southwest list.

I'm sorry you're unhappy. We are too. And I DO understand that you think both deals sucked. No one over here likes them either. Especially not our FOs. It would probably be a fair statement to say that Southwest guys don't want to hear you bitch about how bad the deal is for you, anymore than YOU want to hear Southwest guys bitch about how bad the deal is for them. Know what I mean? Like you said, it's an "individual, personal thing," and it affects us just as much, whether you believe it or not.

Bubba

 

[Citrusflyer]

An ATL base was going to open anyway. I don't follow that argument. They could of stayed on the 737 and transitioned to ATL when they crossed. I don't believe for a second it wasn't about the 4'th stripe. I listen to many of them talk about going back to being an FO like its some form of disease. They actually say this to an FO. Like they are so much better. I hear it all the time.

At the time of the bid we had to go off the information at hand - and assume it was factual. That was that there would be two bases for the SWA 717: Atlanta and Tampa. We were told that there would not be SWA bases with both the 717 and 737, hence the 717 was the sole route to stay in Atlanta. While some did bid for retention of their Capt seat (wouldn't you if you had a chance?), many did it to be able to drive to work.

As for the 'disease' statement - I hope you don't go through life generalizing about ever topic like that. You'd come of, somewhat - how to put it nicely - 'narrow-minded'. I know many Capt's who've gone over and they certainly don't treat being an FO "like some form of disease".

 

[machtuch]

If all the Capt.'s would have voted no then you would have had your dream of arbitration. They didn't so we have what we have.

Can?t argue with that

 

[27 driver]

We all bid on false information. You missed my point entirely. Not a big deal anyway. We have what we have. For the guys that have to endure 8 weeks of training to slide back to the 717 it sucks but.........They bid for it. The ATL base will grow just like DEN did. It will never be as big as it is now but it will grow. Don't approx 70% of our guys commute anyway.

 

[Phlintstone]

Maybe it is more your reading comprehension then forgetfulness...and just to clarify, I was commenting on what SL9 proposed not what we got.

I "forgot" nothing of the sort.

(1) The formula did NOT "staple almost every [AirTran] FO to the bottom of the list."

I'd call stapling of 650 FOs almost all of them (of approx. 800).

(2) There is no stipulation on timing for ANY Southwest guy to upgrade. None.

Wrong again. Paragraph under the seat protections (H.2.e) prevent any AT guy from upgrading until the most junior 2007 (I mistakenly wrote 2005...my bad) hire can upgrade. This might have expired when the ATL fence was dropped but it was a gray area (guess how that would've gone) but was left open ended.

I'm sorry you were hoping for an AirTran upgrade in five years, and then found out that it doesn't translate to a Southwest upgrade with your five years of AirTran service. It takes longer than that to upgrade here. And then even a little longer for you, because of the loss of seniority to equate AirTran service with Southwest service, when on the Southwest list.

There you go again...assuming. I was not at AT to chase a fast upgrade or get the most pay. It was QOL in Atlanta. The CA seat and four stripes is not the end-all, be-all to me. I did way more important, better stuff in the military.

I'm sorry you're unhappy. We are too. And I DO understand that you think both deals sucked. No one over here likes them either. Especially not our FOs. It would probably be a fair statement to say that Southwest guys don't want to hear you bitch about how bad the deal is for you, anymore than YOU want to hear Southwest guys bitch about how bad the deal is for them. Know what I mean?
Bubba

Fair enough.

Phred.

 

[Phlintstone]

We all bid on false information. You missed my point entirely. Not a big deal anyway. We have what we have. For the guys that have to endure 8 weeks of training to slide back to the 717 it sucks but.........They bid for it. The ATL base will grow just like DEN did. It will never be as big as it is now but it will grow. Don't approx 70% of our guys commute anyway.

Last I heard it was around 60% and most of those are around the SE and up the east coast. The ones I've talked to still want commute to ATL though...

Phred

 

[FIREMAN]

For the record. I am an AT 2001 hire. I lost 3 years 10 months with SL10, it would have been 4 years with SL9. I was born and raised in ATL and have an elderly father there. Staying in ATL was my sole reason to bid back to the 717.

 

[PCL_128]

Explain this better:

Fair: Ratio by category and status.

Basically, what the panel at DAL/NWA did, what Nicolau did at AAA/AWA, what Bloch did at PCL/CJC/MSA, etc. It's the modern "gold standard" in seniority integrations, and you'll almost certainly see the exact same result at CAL/UAL.

 

[slaquer5]

Explain this better:

Fair: Ratio by category and status.

It means for each year you had at Airtran, you get 2 years of seniority at SWA.

There number one pilot can flip a coin w/ Rice to see who bids number one.