Southwest Line on Credit?

[Phlintstone]

If you're still interested in this, then here's a synopsis:

The seniority list was calculated to mix AirTran pilots into the Southwest pilot list. Some complicated formula, that no one can accurately describe, basically took an AirTran pilot's original date of hire, then essentially subtracted so much time, and plugged him into the Southwest list. The AVERAGE loss to an AirTran pilot was 2-1/2 years (but individual pilots lost anywhere from exactly two years to just over three years-I don't know how it was decided). So if the average AirTran pilot was hired there in, say, Jan 2001, then he would have plugged into the Southwest list next to a Southwest Jul 2003 hire. That's the new Southwest seniority list with everyone's name on it.

The big caveat with the second deal (the one that got ratified), is that no former AirTran pilot can be a Southwest captain before January of 2015, and all of them are supposed to be transitioned by then. (Also, they make AirTran ALPA CBA wages and benefits while on that side of the partition, and get SWAPA CBA wages and benefits when on this side.)

Come Jan 1, 2015, there's no fences whatsoever. Any Southwest pilot, whether orig Southwest or former AirTran, can bid any seat and any base that his global seniority can hold. It is expected that all the upgrades from that point for a while will go to former AirTran pilots who were senior enough on the list to be a captain, but were contractually forbidden to do so until that date.

All that make sense? Hope this helps answer your question.

Bubba

You forgot a couple of things that you and the rest of the Kool Aid Klan ALWAYS leave out.

(1) The above formula stapled almost every AT FO to the bottom of the list.
(2) Although the 717 captain slots were retained, no AT pilot would be able to upgrade to 737CA until the 2005 SWA hires had an opportunity to upgrade...whether it took two years or twenty.

Oh by the way, when the 717s were subsequently announced that they were gone, I'd bet number (2) would've been enacted so that SWAPA would've captured all the CA seats just like they did in deal that was ratified.

Both deals sucked from the AT point of view. Why can't you guys understand that... If you think that AT is huge supporter of ALPA, you would be wrong. The unhappiness with the process is an individual, personal thing, not as a result of ALPA propaganda. PCL is one of the few big ALPA guys we have.

Phred

 

[redflyer65]

Red, the problem with everything you're saying is that you're assuming a certain level of competence. What I'm telling you is that both the MC and MEC had virtually no experience. The people at the bargaining table had no bargaining experience, and the people who were supposed to be supervising them had none, either. The average amount of time that the members of the MEC had served in an elected position was measured in months, not years.

PCL. That makes perfect sense (as unfortunate as it was) and thanks for putting it in perspective. And in the end, it was that group fear took over.

I always knew the best deal from Gary was going to be the first one. I truely had hoped that those on the AAI side would have realized this too.

 

[Citrusflyer]

Bid what you want and want what you bid. I don't want ALPA to give relief. If SW wants relief they need to negotiate a deal. Otherwise the 73 guys are getting what they were awarded.

I don't want relief either, I realize the ramifications. And I did bid and get what I wanted and am happy with that.

However, you stated that guys were training "now" to keep that 4th stripe as long as possible, and that is a false statement.

 

[maxblast72]

Red, the problem with everything you're saying is that you're assuming a certain level of competence. What I'm telling you is that both the MC and MEC had virtually no experience. The people at the bargaining table had no bargaining experience, and the people who were supposed to be supervising them had none, either. The average amount of time that the members of the MEC had served in an elected position was measured in months, not years.

PCL. That makes perfect sense (as unfortunate as it was) and thanks for putting it in perspective. And in the end, it was that group fear took over.

Two members of the Merger Committee had extensive negotiating experience. One member of the Merger Committee had been through 3 mergers at his previous company (USAir with Piedmont, PSA, and USAir Shuttle), one failed merger attempt (USAir/United 2000), and 2 different sets of bankruptcy negotiations. He was involved in with ALPA for over 25 years including being elected Pittsburgh Captain rep at USAirways. Another member of the Merger Committee had been involved in contract negotiations at two other airlines. I trusted the judgement of those two Merger Committee members way more than anyone on the MEC or our current ALPA Group B4 EVP.

I always knew the best deal from Gary was going to be the first one. I truely had hoped that those on the AAI side would have realized this too.

The Merger Committee understood this quite clearly as well after listening to Gary Kelly at the July 14, 2011 meeting. Unfortunately, the MEC chose to call his bluff on August 18, 2011 without the balls to fire the Merger Committee and show Gary Kelly they meant business.

I will agree with PCL128 on one thing. The readiness the AirTran pilot group to go on strike. Too many of our pilots need 85-95 hours just to pay the bills everymonth and can't go more than a few weeks without a pay check. When I asked our former NPA President on a P2P conference call in the summer of 2008 why we weren't dropping line values to 65 hours in lieu of furloughs for the fall of 2008, he stated that over 50% of our guys need more hours per month to pay the bills. So much for the union spirit of helping the junior guys.

Fornaro knew that as well, and I imagine he let Gary Kelly know that. Some of the biggest tough guys at AirTran folded like cheap lawn chairs after the August 22nd Gary Kelly email to the AirTran pilot group.

 

[redflyer65]

Wow. Thanks for the insight Max.

If the MEC just understood that the first deal would be the only real deal.

 

[PCL_128]

Two members of the Merger Committee had extensive negotiating experience.

Ha!

One member of the Merger Committee had been through 3 mergers at his previous company (USAir with Piedmont, PSA, and USAir Shuttle), one failed merger attempt (USAir/United 2000), and 2 different sets of bankruptcy negotiations. He was involved in with ALPA for over 25 years including being elected Pittsburgh Captain rep at USAirways.

I'll never diminish that member's contributions to ALPA or this profession, but to say that he has bargaining experience is just a flat out lie. Serving on an MEC is not bargaining experience. He had never sat at a bargaining table in his life.

Another member of the Merger Committee had been involved in contract negotiations at two other airlines.

Yes, at the IBT. The IBT structures negotiations in a manner that the pilot representative is an advisor, while the IBT professional negotiators are the one actually doing the bargaining. So, again, no real bargaining experience.

Unfortunately, the MEC chose to call his bluff on August 18, 2011 without the balls to fire the Merger Committee and show Gary Kelly they meant business.

Unfortunately, the MEC had made the mistake early on of telling the pilot group that the Merger Committee was autonomous. You'll remember this, of course, because you reminded everyone about it at the drop of a hat. Firing the MC when you've told the pilot group that the MEC will be hands off isn't an option.

I will agree with PCL128 on one thing. The readiness the AirTran pilot group to go on strike. Too many of our pilots need 85-95 hours just to pay the bills everymonth and can't go more than a few weeks without a pay check. When I asked our former on a P2P conference call in the summer of 2008 why we weren't dropping line values to 65 hours in lieu of furloughs for the fall of 2008, he stated that over 50% of our guys need more hours per month to pay the bills. So much for the union spirit of helping the junior guys.

Fornaro knew that as well, and I imagine he let Gary Kelly know that. Some of the biggest tough guys at AirTran folded like cheap lawn chairs after the August 22nd Gary Kelly email to the AirTran pilot group.

Yep, agree with all of this.

 

[HowardBorden]

He picked this list because he believed it was the worst thing he could do to us and still not look like a monster. He wanted to continue being able to claim the "Golden Rule," and he thought this was the worst he could do and get away with it.

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. I ended up within one tenth of one percentage point on the seniority list at my retirement on the combined list as I would have without the acquisition. Do you think that was just a coincidence? The list was put together taking in to account the relatively younger AirTran pilot group and how that age difference would effect long term seniority.

Red, the problem with everything you're saying is that you're assuming a certain level of competence. What I'm telling you is that both the MC and MEC had virtually no experience. The people at the bargaining table had no bargaining experience, and the people who were supposed to be supervising them had none, either. The average amount of time that the members of the MEC had served in an elected position was measured in months, not years.

Why didn't you ask for help? You had the resources of ALPA national at your disposal, right? Were you guys just too proud to say we need help or was it just plain arrogance that you had the whole situation under control?

 

[maxblast72]

Wow. Thanks for the insight Max.

If the MEC just understood that the first deal would be the only real deal.

RedFlyer, you should buy the former AirTran MEC beers every time you fly with them. Had the MEC not shot down SIA #1, the SWA pilots may have. Then we might have been able to watch Gary Kelly teach the SWA pilots a lesson.

I ran into one of your 2004 FOs in RDU. He just couldn't get over the Captain Retention slots included in SIA #1. I asked him what was going to happen next if his no vote helped lead to the shooting down of SIA #1 from the SWAPA side. He didn't care. He was just extremely emotional about 2004 AirTran Captains keeping their seats while he was 2-3 years away from upgrade. Emotional voting with no plan for what comes next never works.

 

[redflyer65]

RedFlyer, you should buy the former AirTran MEC beers every time you fly with them. Had the MEC not shot down SIA #1, the SWA pilots may have. Then we might have been able to watch Gary Kelly teach the SWA pilots a lesson.

I ran into one of your 2004 FOs in RDU. He just couldn't get over the Captain Retention slots included in SIA #1. I asked him what was going to happen next if his no vote helped lead to the shooting down of SIA #1 from the SWAPA side. He didn't care. He was just extremely emotional about 2004 AirTran Captains keeping their seats while he was 2-3 years away from upgrade. Emotional voting with no plan for what comes next never works.

Good point Max. I was a solid Yes vote for SIA #1, if I had the choice to vote. I never thought the AAI CAs should have lost their seats to begin with. I thought the seniority list should have fallen where it fell. I had no heartburn over AAI CA and/or the ATL fences. Seemed like a viable way of doing things.

The MEC short circuited the whole thing. Who knows how it would have turned out on the SW side. We typically go along with whatever SWAPA recommends, and they were already pushing the agreement....hard.

Water under the bridge.

 

[PCL_128]

Why didn't you ask for help? You had the resources of ALPA national at your disposal, right? Were you guys just to proud to say we need help or was it just plain arrogance that you had the whole situation under control?

I wasn't involved. You would have to ask the members of the MEC. But again, I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that the MEC painted themselves into a corner early on by telling everyone that the Merger Committee was autonomous. After you've done that, trying to exert any sort of control is virtually impossible, regardless of whether you seek national help.

 

[waveflyer]

Funny!



Because certainty is better than uncertainty. Having a negotiated list that was fair was a far superior alternative than going to arbitration where the outcome would be unknown. Unfortunately, it wasn't possible to achieve a fair outcome in negotiations, so the MEC decided that arbitration was the only possible avenue. It had nothing to do with delaying or poisoning any well. It was just an MEC doing their job: trying to get the best possible outcome for their members.



No, I don't disagree. I've said it before, in fact. The pilot group was so irrationally afraid after the public threats began that he could have stapled everyone, imposed a permanent B-scale, and prohibited captain upgrades for 20 years, and the pilots still would have voted for it. The level of fear was off the charts.



This is where you go off the reservation. Gary didn't pick this list based upon some complex formulation of what experts came up with. He picked this list because he believed it was the worst thing he could do to us and still not look like a monster. He wanted to continue being able to claim the "Golden Rule," and he thought this was the worst he could do and get away with it. He went a bit too far, though, because you'll have a hard time finding any AirTran pilot who doesn't burst out laughing when someone mentions the Golden Rule. AirTran pilots voted out of fear, nothing else. They'll never trust Gary, Mike, or SWA again. They'll never feel the way about SWA that you do. He shouldn't have pushed the envelope quite so far. Now he has a quarter of his pilot group who don't believe the SWA hype.



Yes, we've already established that you're delusional.



No thanks.

I'm the delusional one? You have a frank Lorenzo quote in your signature-
Telling.
And yeah- you're an arrogant kid aren't you- some of us have been around a while- and got started every bit as young as you w/o buying their first job- but it's irrelevant

I'm still asking the question you refuse to answer-
Lay it out- if losing on average 2.5 years of seniority wasn't fair, then what was?
Give details. What would the list have to look like in order for you not to be whining?

It's my opinion you would be poisoning the well in your ALPA loyalty even if swapa was stapled- prove me wrong- what did your FAIR list look like?

You're very clear that it was unfair- so what was fair then?

 

[PCL_128]

I'm the delusional one?

Yes.

I'm still asking the question you refuse to answer-
Lay it out- if losing on average 2.5 years of seniority wasn't fair, then what was?
Give details. What would the list have to look like in order for you not to be whining?

It's my opinion you would be poisoning the well in your ALPA loyalty even if swapa was stapled- prove me wrong- what did your FAIR list look like?

You're very clear that it was unfair- so what was fair then?

Actually, I've answered that question repeatedly. You just don't like the answer, so you keep repeating the question.

Fair: Ratio by category and status.

Acceptable: Anything determined by the neutral panel of arbitrators.

 

[27 driver]

I don't want relief either, I realize the ramifications. And I did bid and get what I wanted and am happy with that.

However, you stated that guys were training "now" to keep that 4th stripe as long as possible, and that is a false statement.

Why else would you bid back to the 717 then?

 

[Phlintstone]

To stay in Atlanta or Tampa...or at least on the east coast. There are many reasons.

Phred

 

[Citrusflyer]

Why else would you bid back to the 717 then?

At the time the bids were done, depending on seniority, an Atlanta base.

 

[PCL_128]

Why else would you bid back to the 717 then?

We have captains who bid back to 717 FO in order to stay in Atlanta. It's not all about captain seats.

 

[27 driver]

An ATL base was going to open anyway. I don't follow that argument. They could of stayed on the 737 and transitioned to ATL when they crossed. I don't believe for a second it wasn't about the 4'th stripe. I listen to many of them talk about going back to being an FO like its some form of disease. They actually say this to an FO. Like they are so much better. I hear it all the time.

 

[PCL_128]

An ATL base was going to open anyway. I don't follow that argument. They could of stayed on the 737 and transitioned to ATL when they crossed.

Um, yeah, because finally getting back to Atlanta in 10 years is just as good as being based here now.

 

[27 driver]

Um, yeah, because finally getting back to Atlanta in 10 years is just as good as being based here now.

There aren't that many RSW guys that want ATL. Either way there seniority will hold what it will hold. I won't keep my base either. I just get sick of hearing guys talking about being an FO like its some form of to leprosy. If all the Capt.'s would have voted no then you would have had your dream of arbitration. They didn't so we have what we have.

 

[redflyer65]

There aren't that many RSW guys that want ATL.

I agree 27driver. There maybe a handful of SW guys, but not huge numbers that will want ATL. I'm not one of them and I'm glad that our former AAI guys will have that option available. Obviously not every AAI pilot will be able to hold it, but I hope many do. More people driving to work the better.

 

[waveflyer]

Yes.



Actually, I've answered that question repeatedly. You just don't like the answer, so you keep repeating the question.

Fair: Ratio by category and status.

Acceptable: Anything determined by the neutral panel of arbitrators.

Explain this better:

Fair: Ratio by category and status.

 

[SWA Bubba]

You forgot a couple of things that you and the rest of the Kool Aid Klan ALWAYS leave out.

(1) The above formula stapled almost every AT FO to the bottom of the list.
(2) Although the 717 captain slots were retained, no AT pilot would be able to upgrade to 737CA until the 2005 SWA hires had an opportunity to upgrade...whether it took two years or twenty.

Oh by the way, when the 717s were subsequently announced that they were gone, I'd bet number (2) would've been enacted so that SWAPA would've captured all the CA seats just like they did in deal that was ratified.

Both deals sucked from the AT point of view. Why can't you guys understand that... If you think that AT is huge supporter of ALPA, you would be wrong. The unhappiness with the process is an individual, personal thing, not as a result of ALPA propaganda. PCL is one of the few big ALPA guys we have.

Phred

I "forgot" nothing of the sort.

(1) The formula did NOT "staple almost every [AirTran] FO to the bottom of the list." What a bunch of self-serving crap. Read it again. The first ~450 former AirTran FOs got feathered in exactly as stated, with a varying loss of seniority starting at just about 2.5 years, then worked up to about 3 years, then down to a little less than two years for the last group. Every single one of those ~450 AirTran FOs has original, pre-Sept 2011 Southwest guys behind them on the list. Then on the list, the loss of less than two years' seniority caused the next ~370 to be behind the last FO on the orig pre-Sept 2011 SWA list. Finally the last ~80 AirTran FOs, who were actually hired more than a year after our last FO, were added next, as the last of both companies' pre-Sept 2011 pilots. Did you want those guys to gain seniority? Or are you just bitching about those ~370 who lost AirTran seniority from 22.5 months down fairly linearly to only 5 months which put them behind the last orig SWA guy? Really? THAT's your definition of "stapling almost every FO to the bottom of the list"?

(2) Here I don't even know what you're trying to get at. Perhaps you're confusing or mixing the two agreements. Twenty years? What are you talking about? There is no stipulation on timing for ANY Southwest guy to upgrade. None. Obviously all upgrades through the end of 2014 will be orig Southwest guys, but that's only until the specified date in the agreement. And it certainly won't include all of our 2005 hires (there were lots of them). The first AirTran guy to upgrade at Southwest will do so in 2015, and in fact, nobody BUT former AirTran guys will upgrade for quite a while after that until all the AirTran guys above the ~50% line have upgraded.

Then it will be EXACTLY as I said, with nothing "left out." Any pilot, orig Southwest or orig AirTran, will be able to bid any seat and any base that his or her seniority can hold. No fences, no gates, no limitations, no 20-year whatever-you-were-talking-about. You don't have to drink any Koolaid, but you also can't pretend "facts" that aren't true just to make your bitching seem more pathetic.

I'm sorry you were hoping for an AirTran upgrade in five years, and then found out that it doesn't translate to a Southwest upgrade with your five years of AirTran service. It takes longer than that to upgrade here. And then even a little longer for you, because of the loss of seniority to equate AirTran service with Southwest service, when on the Southwest list.

I'm sorry you're unhappy. We are too. And I DO understand that you think both deals sucked. No one over here likes them either. Especially not our FOs. It would probably be a fair statement to say that Southwest guys don't want to hear you bitch about how bad the deal is for you, anymore than YOU want to hear Southwest guys bitch about how bad the deal is for them. Know what I mean? Like you said, it's an "individual, personal thing," and it affects us just as much, whether you believe it or not.

Bubba

 

[Citrusflyer]

An ATL base was going to open anyway. I don't follow that argument. They could of stayed on the 737 and transitioned to ATL when they crossed. I don't believe for a second it wasn't about the 4'th stripe. I listen to many of them talk about going back to being an FO like its some form of disease. They actually say this to an FO. Like they are so much better. I hear it all the time.

At the time of the bid we had to go off the information at hand - and assume it was factual. That was that there would be two bases for the SWA 717: Atlanta and Tampa. We were told that there would not be SWA bases with both the 717 and 737, hence the 717 was the sole route to stay in Atlanta. While some did bid for retention of their Capt seat (wouldn't you if you had a chance?), many did it to be able to drive to work.

As for the 'disease' statement - I hope you don't go through life generalizing about ever topic like that. You'd come of, somewhat - how to put it nicely - 'narrow-minded'. I know many Capt's who've gone over and they certainly don't treat being an FO "like some form of disease".

 

[machtuch]

If all the Capt.'s would have voted no then you would have had your dream of arbitration. They didn't so we have what we have.

Can?t argue with that

 

[27 driver]

We all bid on false information. You missed my point entirely. Not a big deal anyway. We have what we have. For the guys that have to endure 8 weeks of training to slide back to the 717 it sucks but.........They bid for it. The ATL base will grow just like DEN did. It will never be as big as it is now but it will grow. Don't approx 70% of our guys commute anyway.

 

[Phlintstone]

Maybe it is more your reading comprehension then forgetfulness...and just to clarify, I was commenting on what SL9 proposed not what we got.

I "forgot" nothing of the sort.

(1) The formula did NOT "staple almost every [AirTran] FO to the bottom of the list."

I'd call stapling of 650 FOs almost all of them (of approx. 800).

(2) There is no stipulation on timing for ANY Southwest guy to upgrade. None.

Wrong again. Paragraph under the seat protections (H.2.e) prevent any AT guy from upgrading until the most junior 2007 (I mistakenly wrote 2005...my bad) hire can upgrade. This might have expired when the ATL fence was dropped but it was a gray area (guess how that would've gone) but was left open ended.

I'm sorry you were hoping for an AirTran upgrade in five years, and then found out that it doesn't translate to a Southwest upgrade with your five years of AirTran service. It takes longer than that to upgrade here. And then even a little longer for you, because of the loss of seniority to equate AirTran service with Southwest service, when on the Southwest list.

There you go again...assuming. I was not at AT to chase a fast upgrade or get the most pay. It was QOL in Atlanta. The CA seat and four stripes is not the end-all, be-all to me. I did way more important, better stuff in the military.

I'm sorry you're unhappy. We are too. And I DO understand that you think both deals sucked. No one over here likes them either. Especially not our FOs. It would probably be a fair statement to say that Southwest guys don't want to hear you bitch about how bad the deal is for you, anymore than YOU want to hear Southwest guys bitch about how bad the deal is for them. Know what I mean?
Bubba

Fair enough.

Phred.

 

[Phlintstone]

We all bid on false information. You missed my point entirely. Not a big deal anyway. We have what we have. For the guys that have to endure 8 weeks of training to slide back to the 717 it sucks but.........They bid for it. The ATL base will grow just like DEN did. It will never be as big as it is now but it will grow. Don't approx 70% of our guys commute anyway.

Last I heard it was around 60% and most of those are around the SE and up the east coast. The ones I've talked to still want commute to ATL though...

Phred

 

[FIREMAN]

For the record. I am an AT 2001 hire. I lost 3 years 10 months with SL10, it would have been 4 years with SL9. I was born and raised in ATL and have an elderly father there. Staying in ATL was my sole reason to bid back to the 717.

 

[PCL_128]

Explain this better:

Fair: Ratio by category and status.

Basically, what the panel at DAL/NWA did, what Nicolau did at AAA/AWA, what Bloch did at PCL/CJC/MSA, etc. It's the modern "gold standard" in seniority integrations, and you'll almost certainly see the exact same result at CAL/UAL.

 

[slaquer5]

Explain this better:

Fair: Ratio by category and status.

It means for each year you had at Airtran, you get 2 years of seniority at SWA.

There number one pilot can flip a coin w/ Rice to see who bids number one.