Southwest Line on Credit?

[PCL_128]

Certainly, they could be blowing smoke up you know where

Bingo. Our pilots aren't idiots. They know to keep their true opinions quiet to avoid creating problems for themselves.

 

[Citrusflyer]

.... We have AAI 737 guys training on the 717 now in hopes of keeping their 4'th stripe as long as possible. ...

Ah, no ... we have 737 guys training on the 717 because SWA/ALPA will not relieve that requirement for guys who bid 717TBA prior to coming over to SWA on the 737. No one in that boat has any option to NOT train.

 

[humveedriver]

thanks, good info.. sounds fair on it's face.

Fairness, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Hopefully, some senior AT will be able to upgrade in 2015. Our CA seats were tied to the 717 and our 737 CA seats were specifically allocated to original SWA pilots. Ultimately I don't think the deal we ended up with was fair to either pilot group. I think the SWA pilots should have received a signing bonus and the AT pilots less of a seniority hit. Instead both groups were told here ya go! Hope you like it, by SWA management.

 

[canyonblue]

No, I don't disagree. I've said it before, in fact. The pilot group was so irrationally afraid after the public threats began that he could have stapled everyone, imposed a permanent B-scale, and prohibited captain upgrades for 20 years, and the pilots still would have voted for it. The level of fear was off the charts.

This is the part that I don't understand, isn't this the same group that voted 98% to strike? The same group that essentially was telling their management that they would walk away from their jobs rather than accept a ridiculous offer. I don't understand how this group could be forced into anything. Is the reality that this group would have accepted any offer from AirTran management to keep their jobs, and the strike vote was a sham. Perhaps that is the reason that the negotiations dragged on so long is because all along they knew you would never strike. At least that is the way you are leading me to believe by your statements.

Or is the reality that losing the AirTran job was palatable, but losing the Southwest job was not. I'm not starting a bitchfest, just trying to figure out the true story. It just doesn't add up.

 

[PCL_128]

This is the part that I don't understand, isn't this the same group that voted 98% to strike? The same group that essentially was telling their management that they would walk away from their jobs rather than accept a ridiculous offer. I don't understand how this group could be forced into anything. Is the reality that this group would have accepted any offer from AirTran management to keep their jobs, and the strike vote was a sham. Perhaps that is the reason that the negotiations dragged on so long is because all along they knew you would never strike. At least that is the way you are leading me to believe by your statements.

Yes, I believe the strike vote was indeed a sham. I now believe that if we had gone on strike, we likely would have had a significant amount of the pilot group cross within a few days. But even more likely is that as a cooling off period progressed and got closer to the deadline, pilots would have been coming out of the woodwork demanding that the MEC settle for whatever management offered. That's essentially why the MEC ended up taking Gary's second offer. They didn't want to, but the pressure from the pilot group was overwhelming. The very same pilots who sent emails in July telling the MEC to vote down AIP1 without sending it out for a pilot vote were clamoring for a vote after Gary went public with the threats. The fear was palpable.

 

[canyonblue]

Yes, I believe the strike vote was indeed a sham. I now believe that if we had gone on strike, we likely would have had a significant amount of the pilot group cross within a few days. But even more likely is that as a cooling off period progressed and got closer to the deadline, pilots would have been coming out of the woodwork demanding that the MEC settle for whatever management offered. That's essentially why the MEC ended up taking Gary's second offer. They didn't want to, but the pressure from the pilot group was overwhelming. The very same pilots who sent emails in July telling the MEC to vote down AIP1 without sending it out for a pilot vote were clamoring for a vote after Gary went public with the threats. The fear was palpable.

Ok, thanks for the reply. Not that I always agree with you, but Union work isn't easy if the masses are running in different directions.

 

[redflyer65]

Still talking out of your ass, I see. The MEC voted down the first deal, after a whole hell of a lot of debate and stress, because they didn't believe that it was a fair deal, and because they believed that a better deal was achievable in arbitration. It's that simple. No convoluted plans, no sinister strategies, just reps doing what they thought was best for their members.

That's your response?

The MEC sent the MC to negotiate a deal, right? The process went on for months, not days.......MONTHS. There's no way the MEC didn't have a accurate idea of where things were headed.

After that package was brought back to Atlanta for the MEC to review, all of the sudden (after months mind you) they were shocked at what they saw. What the MC agreed to in principle was completely foreign and heinous to the MEC? That's basically what you arguing. That the MEC was soooo out of touch they had no clue about what was happening.....month after month after month.

Let's look at it another way..

If they DID know what was coming down the line, why didn't they adjust their desires to get a deal that was more palatable? Or not agree at all?

You can't have it both ways. You say they were just doing their job. What job? Sending the MC to get a crappy agreement? Not monitoring the progress? Then throwing their hands up in the air and throwing the MC under the bus in the process..

or just drawing things out to get to arbitration? I distinctly remembering that it took them several DAYS to decide how to vote. Wouldn't you already have a general idea of how to vote before the paperwork hit the desk? What a disaster for the line pilots. Embarrassing actually.

 

[PCL_128]

That's your response?

The MEC sent the MC to negotiate a deal, right? The process went on for months, not days.......MONTHS. There's no way the MEC didn't have a accurate idea of where things were headed.

After that package was brought back to Atlanta for the MEC to review, all of the sudden (after months mind you) they were shocked at what they saw. What the MC agreed to in principle was completely foreign and heinous to the MEC? That's basically what you arguing. That the MEC was soooo out of touch they had no clue about what was happening.....month after month after month.

Let's look at it another way..

If they DID know what was coming down the line, why didn't they adjust their desires to get a deal that was more palatable? Or not agree at all?

You can't have it both ways. You say they were just doing their job. What job? Sending the MC to get a crappy agreement? Not monitoring the progress? Then throwing their hands up in the air and throwing the MC under the bus in the process..

or just drawing things out to get to arbitration? I distinctly remembering that it took them several DAYS to decide how to vote. Wouldn't you already have a general idea of how to vote before the paperwork hit the desk? What a disaster for the line pilots. Embarrassing actually.

Red, the problem with everything you're saying is that you're assuming a certain level of competence. What I'm telling you is that both the MC and MEC had virtually no experience. The people at the bargaining table had no bargaining experience, and the people who were supposed to be supervising them had none, either. The average amount of time that the members of the MEC had served in an elected position was measured in months, not years.

 

[27 driver]

Ah, no ... we have 737 guys training on the 717 because SWA/ALPA will not relieve that requirement for guys who bid 717TBA prior to coming over to SWA on the 737. No one in that boat has any option to NOT train.

Bid what you want and want what you bid. I don't want ALPA to give relief. If SW wants relief they need to negotiate a deal. Otherwise the 73 guys are getting what they were awarded.

 

[SWA717]

The first agreement, the one the ALPA turned down had...

10 year CA seats for AAI.
10 base fences for ATL for AAI.
SW pay and benefits almost immediately.

The second deal wasn't so generous.

Zero CA seats, no fences what so ever. No SW pay until transitioned over. Slightly more seniority for AAI, slightly.

ALPA thought they knew better. Everyone else paid a heavy price for that arrogance.

Exactly,

Slick and his sidekick Witch, plus the drunk in Orlando thought they had Gary by the balls. And sadly, some of the idiots still fighting out on our union forum thought they had Gary's number. How quickly we learned.

 

[Phlintstone]

If you're still interested in this, then here's a synopsis:

The seniority list was calculated to mix AirTran pilots into the Southwest pilot list. Some complicated formula, that no one can accurately describe, basically took an AirTran pilot's original date of hire, then essentially subtracted so much time, and plugged him into the Southwest list. The AVERAGE loss to an AirTran pilot was 2-1/2 years (but individual pilots lost anywhere from exactly two years to just over three years-I don't know how it was decided). So if the average AirTran pilot was hired there in, say, Jan 2001, then he would have plugged into the Southwest list next to a Southwest Jul 2003 hire. That's the new Southwest seniority list with everyone's name on it.

The big caveat with the second deal (the one that got ratified), is that no former AirTran pilot can be a Southwest captain before January of 2015, and all of them are supposed to be transitioned by then. (Also, they make AirTran ALPA CBA wages and benefits while on that side of the partition, and get SWAPA CBA wages and benefits when on this side.)

Come Jan 1, 2015, there's no fences whatsoever. Any Southwest pilot, whether orig Southwest or former AirTran, can bid any seat and any base that his global seniority can hold. It is expected that all the upgrades from that point for a while will go to former AirTran pilots who were senior enough on the list to be a captain, but were contractually forbidden to do so until that date.

All that make sense? Hope this helps answer your question.

Bubba

You forgot a couple of things that you and the rest of the Kool Aid Klan ALWAYS leave out.

(1) The above formula stapled almost every AT FO to the bottom of the list.
(2) Although the 717 captain slots were retained, no AT pilot would be able to upgrade to 737CA until the 2005 SWA hires had an opportunity to upgrade...whether it took two years or twenty.

Oh by the way, when the 717s were subsequently announced that they were gone, I'd bet number (2) would've been enacted so that SWAPA would've captured all the CA seats just like they did in deal that was ratified.

Both deals sucked from the AT point of view. Why can't you guys understand that... If you think that AT is huge supporter of ALPA, you would be wrong. The unhappiness with the process is an individual, personal thing, not as a result of ALPA propaganda. PCL is one of the few big ALPA guys we have.

Phred

 

[redflyer65]

Red, the problem with everything you're saying is that you're assuming a certain level of competence. What I'm telling you is that both the MC and MEC had virtually no experience. The people at the bargaining table had no bargaining experience, and the people who were supposed to be supervising them had none, either. The average amount of time that the members of the MEC had served in an elected position was measured in months, not years.

PCL. That makes perfect sense (as unfortunate as it was) and thanks for putting it in perspective. And in the end, it was that group fear took over.

I always knew the best deal from Gary was going to be the first one. I truely had hoped that those on the AAI side would have realized this too.

 

[Citrusflyer]

Bid what you want and want what you bid. I don't want ALPA to give relief. If SW wants relief they need to negotiate a deal. Otherwise the 73 guys are getting what they were awarded.

I don't want relief either, I realize the ramifications. And I did bid and get what I wanted and am happy with that.

However, you stated that guys were training "now" to keep that 4th stripe as long as possible, and that is a false statement.

 

[maxblast72]

Red, the problem with everything you're saying is that you're assuming a certain level of competence. What I'm telling you is that both the MC and MEC had virtually no experience. The people at the bargaining table had no bargaining experience, and the people who were supposed to be supervising them had none, either. The average amount of time that the members of the MEC had served in an elected position was measured in months, not years.

PCL. That makes perfect sense (as unfortunate as it was) and thanks for putting it in perspective. And in the end, it was that group fear took over.

Two members of the Merger Committee had extensive negotiating experience. One member of the Merger Committee had been through 3 mergers at his previous company (USAir with Piedmont, PSA, and USAir Shuttle), one failed merger attempt (USAir/United 2000), and 2 different sets of bankruptcy negotiations. He was involved in with ALPA for over 25 years including being elected Pittsburgh Captain rep at USAirways. Another member of the Merger Committee had been involved in contract negotiations at two other airlines. I trusted the judgement of those two Merger Committee members way more than anyone on the MEC or our current ALPA Group B4 EVP.

I always knew the best deal from Gary was going to be the first one. I truely had hoped that those on the AAI side would have realized this too.

The Merger Committee understood this quite clearly as well after listening to Gary Kelly at the July 14, 2011 meeting. Unfortunately, the MEC chose to call his bluff on August 18, 2011 without the balls to fire the Merger Committee and show Gary Kelly they meant business.

I will agree with PCL128 on one thing. The readiness the AirTran pilot group to go on strike. Too many of our pilots need 85-95 hours just to pay the bills everymonth and can't go more than a few weeks without a pay check. When I asked our former NPA President on a P2P conference call in the summer of 2008 why we weren't dropping line values to 65 hours in lieu of furloughs for the fall of 2008, he stated that over 50% of our guys need more hours per month to pay the bills. So much for the union spirit of helping the junior guys.

Fornaro knew that as well, and I imagine he let Gary Kelly know that. Some of the biggest tough guys at AirTran folded like cheap lawn chairs after the August 22nd Gary Kelly email to the AirTran pilot group.

 

[redflyer65]

Wow. Thanks for the insight Max.

If the MEC just understood that the first deal would be the only real deal.

 

[PCL_128]

Two members of the Merger Committee had extensive negotiating experience.

Ha!

One member of the Merger Committee had been through 3 mergers at his previous company (USAir with Piedmont, PSA, and USAir Shuttle), one failed merger attempt (USAir/United 2000), and 2 different sets of bankruptcy negotiations. He was involved in with ALPA for over 25 years including being elected Pittsburgh Captain rep at USAirways.

I'll never diminish that member's contributions to ALPA or this profession, but to say that he has bargaining experience is just a flat out lie. Serving on an MEC is not bargaining experience. He had never sat at a bargaining table in his life.

Another member of the Merger Committee had been involved in contract negotiations at two other airlines.

Yes, at the IBT. The IBT structures negotiations in a manner that the pilot representative is an advisor, while the IBT professional negotiators are the one actually doing the bargaining. So, again, no real bargaining experience.

Unfortunately, the MEC chose to call his bluff on August 18, 2011 without the balls to fire the Merger Committee and show Gary Kelly they meant business.

Unfortunately, the MEC had made the mistake early on of telling the pilot group that the Merger Committee was autonomous. You'll remember this, of course, because you reminded everyone about it at the drop of a hat. Firing the MC when you've told the pilot group that the MEC will be hands off isn't an option.

I will agree with PCL128 on one thing. The readiness the AirTran pilot group to go on strike. Too many of our pilots need 85-95 hours just to pay the bills everymonth and can't go more than a few weeks without a pay check. When I asked our former on a P2P conference call in the summer of 2008 why we weren't dropping line values to 65 hours in lieu of furloughs for the fall of 2008, he stated that over 50% of our guys need more hours per month to pay the bills. So much for the union spirit of helping the junior guys.

Fornaro knew that as well, and I imagine he let Gary Kelly know that. Some of the biggest tough guys at AirTran folded like cheap lawn chairs after the August 22nd Gary Kelly email to the AirTran pilot group.

Yep, agree with all of this.

 

[HowardBorden]

He picked this list because he believed it was the worst thing he could do to us and still not look like a monster. He wanted to continue being able to claim the "Golden Rule," and he thought this was the worst he could do and get away with it.

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. I ended up within one tenth of one percentage point on the seniority list at my retirement on the combined list as I would have without the acquisition. Do you think that was just a coincidence? The list was put together taking in to account the relatively younger AirTran pilot group and how that age difference would effect long term seniority.

Red, the problem with everything you're saying is that you're assuming a certain level of competence. What I'm telling you is that both the MC and MEC had virtually no experience. The people at the bargaining table had no bargaining experience, and the people who were supposed to be supervising them had none, either. The average amount of time that the members of the MEC had served in an elected position was measured in months, not years.

Why didn't you ask for help? You had the resources of ALPA national at your disposal, right? Were you guys just too proud to say we need help or was it just plain arrogance that you had the whole situation under control?

 

[maxblast72]

Wow. Thanks for the insight Max.

If the MEC just understood that the first deal would be the only real deal.

RedFlyer, you should buy the former AirTran MEC beers every time you fly with them. Had the MEC not shot down SIA #1, the SWA pilots may have. Then we might have been able to watch Gary Kelly teach the SWA pilots a lesson.

I ran into one of your 2004 FOs in RDU. He just couldn't get over the Captain Retention slots included in SIA #1. I asked him what was going to happen next if his no vote helped lead to the shooting down of SIA #1 from the SWAPA side. He didn't care. He was just extremely emotional about 2004 AirTran Captains keeping their seats while he was 2-3 years away from upgrade. Emotional voting with no plan for what comes next never works.

 

[redflyer65]

RedFlyer, you should buy the former AirTran MEC beers every time you fly with them. Had the MEC not shot down SIA #1, the SWA pilots may have. Then we might have been able to watch Gary Kelly teach the SWA pilots a lesson.

I ran into one of your 2004 FOs in RDU. He just couldn't get over the Captain Retention slots included in SIA #1. I asked him what was going to happen next if his no vote helped lead to the shooting down of SIA #1 from the SWAPA side. He didn't care. He was just extremely emotional about 2004 AirTran Captains keeping their seats while he was 2-3 years away from upgrade. Emotional voting with no plan for what comes next never works.

Good point Max. I was a solid Yes vote for SIA #1, if I had the choice to vote. I never thought the AAI CAs should have lost their seats to begin with. I thought the seniority list should have fallen where it fell. I had no heartburn over AAI CA and/or the ATL fences. Seemed like a viable way of doing things.

The MEC short circuited the whole thing. Who knows how it would have turned out on the SW side. We typically go along with whatever SWAPA recommends, and they were already pushing the agreement....hard.

Water under the bridge.

 

[PCL_128]

Why didn't you ask for help? You had the resources of ALPA national at your disposal, right? Were you guys just to proud to say we need help or was it just plain arrogance that you had the whole situation under control?

I wasn't involved. You would have to ask the members of the MEC. But again, I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that the MEC painted themselves into a corner early on by telling everyone that the Merger Committee was autonomous. After you've done that, trying to exert any sort of control is virtually impossible, regardless of whether you seek national help.