So was B19 right or wrong?

[brokeflyer]

Who cares about the profits? Don't you think that there should have been some of the profits put aside for the downturn in the economy that always happens? Profits aren't there for just the moment, they are there to sustain the company through good times and bad. Unions only negotiate for the good times and never react properly when the bad times occur. Like now.

thats the question I want answered. What did the company do with all the profits, while no airplanes were being delivered? I'm glad to see you coming around and seeing how bad the working man is getting fcked by the company. Guess you aint all bad after all.

corporate CEO/management greed has become so bad its amazing this country hasnt collapsed already. Im no fan of a union but management is where all the money is hidden. Sorry but thats just the way it is.

NJ...AT THIS MOMENT can afford a CBA that has ALL THE NUMBERS doubled.

remember, there are no bad employees, only bad managers.

 

[fischman]

I don't avoid the avantair threads, the citation share (air) threads or any of the others. I just post where I feel like it. Another conspiracy theory.

Threads with NJ (and FLOPS) on the other hand are classic examples of what happens when unions invade a company.

All you guys in the non-union fracs need to pay close attention to how NJASAP and 1108 are handling this ongoing chaos right now. (quite poorly ) 1108 was greedy and there is utter chaos and malcontent while these companies are dealing with these unions.

Yes. Let's talk about how NetJets wanted to try to save job and how NJASAP kept them from doing just that.

B19, PLEASE don't let facts get in the way. Nevermind how NJASAP came to NetJets MONTHS before the $h!t hit the fan telling them about our upcoming financial troubles. Nevermind the fact that NJASAP has been collecting waste reports from our members to try to help the company eliminate it (which has fallen on deaf ears for YEARS). Nevermind the fact that NJASAP went to the company with Voluntary Measures designed to help save hundreds of jobs (which the company eventually no longer believed in and canceled). Again, I'd HATE for you to have to come out of your bubble and see the REAL WORLD. What else can NJASAP do to convince you that we are not here to destroy the company? How have we created chaos? We have FIXED chaos due to poor management.

Speaking of REAL WORLD, Avantair is seeing some nice growth as people are looking for a cheaper way to enjoy fractional ownership. What are you planning for Avantair when the fractional market swings the way away from turboprops and wants the size and speed a jet can afford? When the pilots become upset because you are going to have to lay them off are you going to help save their jobs? Are you going to quit if a union ever comes on property? Or will you threaten all who desire representation and a contract (which I'm sure you enjoy having). Why is management allowed to have contracts and pilots aren't?

 

[B19 Flyer]

Facts? Yeah, let's look at them...

Yes. Let's talk about how NetJets wanted to try to save job and how NJASAP kept them from doing just that.

B19, PLEASE don't let facts get in the way. Nevermind how NJASAP came to NetJets MONTHS before the $h!t hit the fan telling them about our upcoming financial troubles. Nevermind the fact that NJASAP has been collecting waste reports from our members to try to help the company eliminate it (which has fallen on deaf ears for YEARS). Nevermind the fact that NJASAP went to the company with Voluntary Measures designed to help save hundreds of jobs (which the company eventually no longer believed in and canceled). Again, I'd HATE for you to have to come out of your bubble and see the REAL WORLD. What else can NJASAP do to convince you that we are not here to destroy the company? How have we created chaos? We have FIXED chaos due to poor management.

Speaking of REAL WORLD, Avantair is seeing some nice growth as people are looking for a cheaper way to enjoy fractional ownership. What are you planning for Avantair when the fractional market swings the way away from turboprops and wants the size and speed a jet can afford? When the pilots become upset because you are going to have to lay them off are you going to help save their jobs? Are you going to quit if a union ever comes on property? Or will you threaten all who desire representation and a contract (which I'm sure you enjoy having). Why is management allowed to have contracts and pilots aren't?

Let's get the facts straight. Look at the turmoil NJ pilots are going through and have been through. Look at the turmoil FLOPS pilots are going through.

You can talk about all the stuff you want.. you and your union brethren have created a lot more hell for your companies than all the others put together.

Oh, and I've said this before.. contracts for management are offered to attract and maintain quality employees.

For that one reason alone, no union will ever be offered a contract. The union will ALWAYS need to resort to the greedy methods of forcing a contract on a company using bully tactics to get what they want because everybody that has ever been involved with a union knows that it's all about the greed and never about the good of the company.

All the crap you mentioned above? It's all trying to fix what the union screwed up. Nothing more... there is no honor in the unions actions above. They are just trying to bail themselves out of something the company shouldn't have been into in the first place.

 

[Fozzy]

And there it is

Oh, and I've said this before.. contracts for management are offered to attract and maintain quality employees.

And that folks is what management tools think of the pilots, you know the ones that actually do the real work.
If we all did our jobs as good as B19 and his ilk we all would be on the bread line.
Long walk, short pier.

 

[steelersrule74]

Oh, and I've said this before.. contracts for management are offered to attract and maintain quality employees.

and the starting wage at avantair is just barely above unemployment. I'm sure for the guys that actually fly the machine, recruiting quality crew members is fairly important. It's sad and tragic you think quality is something that only needs to apply to management.

 

[fischman]

Let's get the facts straight. Look at the turmoil NJ pilots are going through and have been through. Look at the turmoil FLOPS pilots are going through.

You can talk about all the stuff you want.. you and your union brethren have created a lot more hell for your companies than all the others put together.

Oh, and I've said this before.. contracts for management are offered to attract and maintain quality employees.

For that one reason alone, no union will ever be offered a contract. The union will ALWAYS need to resort to the greedy methods of forcing a contract on a company using bully tactics to get what they want because everybody that has ever been involved with a union knows that it's all about the greed and never about the good of the company.

All the crap you mentioned above? It's all trying to fix what the union screwed up. Nothing more... there is no honor in the unions actions above. They are just trying to bail themselves out of something the company shouldn't have been into in the first place.

Your facts are in error. TRUST ME. NJASAP was PROACTIVE in this matter. NOT REACTIVE like management was. This wasn't a bully tactic. We went to NetJets OFFERING help. How is that a bully tactic?

You skirted all my other questions about Avantair. Why is that?

 

[gunfyter]

Avantair is a good plCe to be right now. I am predicting a pilot shortage due to upcoming duty and rest improvements and a 1500 hr Atp requirement for 121 airlines. Also FAA will restrict commuting. Can't jumpseat to work on rest time.



Non-union shops will unionize if managements do not keep up withthe Jones'.

Regionals will have to bump up pay. Next Avantair will follow with raises. Snowball effect will result in pay raise bidding war for pilots industry wide.

19 will voluntarilly take a pay and benefit cut to help company afford to hire pilots they need. You know like when fuel costs go up... Managements always ask employees to take cuts. 19 will take one for the team.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Bwaha bwahahaha bwahahahahahaha. Thanks Gun, I needed a chuckle this morning.

 

[steelersrule74]

19 will voluntarilly take a pay and benefit cut to help company afford to hire pilots they need. You know like when fuel costs go up... Managements always ask employees to take cuts. 19 will take one for the team.

unless those pesky management contracts get in the way. i'm sure though when times are tough B19 and the rest of those 'quality' recruits will not be selfish and will in fact enthusiastically agree to concessions.:beer:

 

[gunfyter]

GSD,

I aim to please....

Look, NJ started Ab-initio in Europe. They were working on it for the US before 9/11 and Osama bin LaidOff ruined things for us,,,,

There is pent up demand! Did people stop flying on Fracs because they love to fly on the airlines? when the economy turns ... shares will be selling like before....

Things change quickly ... you can't time the market ... gotta bet big to win big. I am ALL-IN.

I think NJ is in a good position to cash in when things turn.
Roll those bones.

 

[gutshotdraw]

The Fed will cave on 121 duty and rest regs. Golden Rule: He with the Gold makes the Rules.

While I also believe Netjets is well positioned and led for the future, I also believe the fractional aircraft market has been commoditized much the same way airline seats have been. The consumer is interested in one thing: cost. Brand loyalty is a secondary concern. The entry into the marketplace by several lower cost rivals can only bring downward pressure on pricing and, ultimately, costs (read: labor).

Look no further than our own travel department. They will put us on a crap airline to save $50 a ticket rather than an identical itinerary on our preferred carrier. I believe in competition and creative destruction is the necessary result of capitalism. It's just that I have tempered my expectations for the future and the "pricing power" of aviation labor.

That is not to say I believe we should sell ourselves short or agree to concessions. On the contrary. We should continue to work to prove our legitimate economic value to our employers and our customers. The notion of some "pilot shortage" to drive up demand for our services is, I believe, wishful thinking.

 

[gunfyter]

Maybe. Take a look at today's WSJ. Money and Investing section.

Article. Shh! Wall Street is Spending again. Even mention Flight Options.

Article. The U S economy's Trillion dollar question. Seems there are trillions of dollars sidelined and ready to be spent. As soon as confidence returns.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Your facts are in error. TRUST ME. NJASAP was PROACTIVE in this matter. NOT REACTIVE like management was. This wasn't a bully tactic. We went to NetJets OFFERING help. How is that a bully tactic?

You skirted all my other questions about Avantair. Why is that?

No... big contract meant big cost and the union is trying to get out of what they got themselves into.

Your "proactive" actions are akin to kicking somebody in the shins and then asking him if he's OK and helping him up. You still caused the pain and your actions would have never happened if you hadn't kicked him in the shins.

Oh, I did answer your question and skirted nothing. I stated that I also don't post on other threads that don't interest me. That thread doesn't interest me. I wasn't avoiding it.

 

[B19 Flyer]

19 will voluntarilly take a pay and benefit cut to help company afford to hire pilots they need. You know like when fuel costs go up... Managements always ask employees to take cuts. 19 will take one for the team.

I've taken plenty of pay cuts over the years before the union. That's because management always does the right thing before unions.

 

[gunfyter]

.. That's because management always does the right thing before unions.

Braaahhahha hahahaha lol uhgnnn my sides are hurting... oh... that was a good one.

Oh man ... you owe me a new computer keyboard and a cup of coffee....