So was B19 right or wrong?

[dime line]

I've taken plenty of pay cuts over the years before the union. That's because management always does the right thing before unions.

Yea I'd like to see one such cut! Your humor is killing us, look at Gun, he dropped his coffee cup on his computer.

 

[steelersrule74]

I've taken plenty of pay cuts over the years before the union. That's because management always does the right thing before unions.

that's interesting to me. did you take your paycut out of goodwill or because there would be hell to pay from organized pilots who thought the pain should be shared? again, as I look at avantair which is non-union it seems that not all executives share your 'evolved' sense of righteousness. take their COO for example.

I think everyone can agree the last 2 years have been one of the worst economic meltdowns in our lifetimes. when unemployment is 10%, pilots are being furloughed left and right i think it's not unreasonable to at least freeze the compensation of executives. looks like some though aren't so interested when it comes to their compensation.

in 2007 - Avantair COO $99,375.00
in 2008 - $250,407.00
in 2009 - $324,784.00

here are the links for this publicly traded company.
http://sec.edgar-online.com/avantair-inc/10-k-annual-report/2008/09/24/Section24.aspx

http://quote.morningstar.com/inside...px?t=AAIR&P=Kevin-Beitzel&PersonId=PS0000215I

i must be missing something. i find it surprising an executive would willingly allow his salary to be almost quadrupled during this difficult times. it seems so slimy.

 

[SilverSurfer]

B19 was a moron from day 1

 

[HazMat]

B19 is not the COO at Avantair. There is no way. Just to keep things real everyone still has their job here thats something we can all agree on. Keep in mind that bonuses are typically paid in stock and the stock has almost doubled in the last couple of months. We could easily point to a 10 year captain salary at Netjets and say I think its pretty slimy that they keep taking raises in this economy. Just a silly argument altogether

 

[steelersrule74]

B19 is not the COO at Avantair. There is no way. Just to keep things real everyone still has their job here thats something we can all agree on. Keep in mind that bonuses are typically paid in stock and the stock has almost doubled in the last couple of months. We could easily point to a 10 year captain salary at Netjets and say I think its pretty slimy that they keep taking raises in this economy. Just a silly argument altogether

that's not entirely accurate. our contract has built in ebbs and flows that allows it react to economic environments. as soon as the economy went south every netjets pilots experienced between 15-20% pay reduction. True, base pay still enjoys a yearly longevity bonus but W2 earnings will be less this year.

as for who B19 is. it doesn't matter to me at all. If however B19 WAS the COO at avantair would that matter to you? would it matter to the other pilots that work there? I think it's pretty clear the opinion he holds of pilots, the work they do and their value. He has made numerous claims he's an executive. if he were at avantair I think most who work there and post here would find that information relevant.

have no fear though, he makes no comments about avantair in any way. clearly that company doesn't interest him at all.

 

[HazMat]

Are you saying if we look at what's published about netjet pilot pay it is not accurate today? We should be deducting 20 percent

 

[steelersrule74]

Are you saying if we look at what's published about netjet pilot pay it is not accurate today? We should be deducting 20 percent

what i'm saying is the compensation for netjets pilots was negotiated such that a significant portion of it was tied to things such as holiday pay, overtime, extended days of work, undertime on day 1 etc. we could have eliminated all those opportunities and simply had a higher base wage but that would have a detrimental effect on the company in times such as this. also, this is different from voluntary overtime or extra days of work. those opportunities exist (or did in the past) as at other carriers but the items above are non-voluntary and simply part of the daily business. it's fair to say wages at netjets have been historically 15-20% greater than base wages because of these non-voluntary items. the company and the union planned on this and was aware of the design. it is the 'shock absorber' if you will in our CBA for an economic downturn.

so to your question above, I would say 2009 is the first year the published pay rates at netjets ARE accurate. every year previous you would have had to add 15-20% to get a true picture of compensation.

 

[gunfyter]

I have made about 25 k less this year. Than 2008.

 

[steelersrule74]

I have made about 25 k less this year. Than 2008.

you sir are doing the right thing. B19 would be proud.......:beer:

 

[fischman]

No... big contract meant big cost and the union is trying to get out of what they got themselves into.

Your "proactive" actions are akin to kicking somebody in the shins and then asking him if he's OK and helping him up. You still caused the pain and your actions would have never happened if you hadn't kicked him in the shins.

Oh, I did answer your question and skirted nothing. I stated that I also don't post on other threads that don't interest me. That thread doesn't interest me. I wasn't avoiding it.

Our CBA is a drop of water in the ocean compared to the 100+ extra airframes our wizard management team overbought.

So NJASAP does EXACTLY what you say unions never do, and you say we are kicking NetJets in the shins??? How does that work??? Are you out of your mind??? Seriously, are you not sane? Are you in an institution?

Oh, and you didn't answer a single question, and I posted them in this thread. You are skirting. I'll repost them and highlight them in bold for you. I anything I can do to help...

Yes. Let's talk about how NetJets wanted to try to save job and how NJASAP kept them from doing just that.

B19, PLEASE don't let facts get in the way. Nevermind how NJASAP came to NetJets MONTHS before the $h!t hit the fan telling them about our upcoming financial troubles. Nevermind the fact that NJASAP has been collecting waste reports from our members to try to help the company eliminate it (which has fallen on deaf ears for YEARS). Nevermind the fact that NJASAP went to the company with Voluntary Measures designed to help save hundreds of jobs (which the company eventually no longer believed in and canceled). Again, I'd HATE for you to have to come out of your bubble and see the REAL WORLD. What else can NJASAP do to convince you that we are not here to destroy the company? How have we created chaos? We have FIXED chaos due to poor management.

Speaking of REAL WORLD, Avantair is seeing some nice growth as people are looking for a cheaper way to enjoy fractional ownership. What are you planning for Avantair when the fractional market swings the way away from turboprops and wants the size and speed a jet can afford? When the pilots become upset because you are going to have to lay them off are you going to help save their jobs? Are you going to quit if a union ever comes on property? Or will you threaten all who desire representation and a contract (which I'm sure you enjoy having)? Why is management allowed to have contracts and pilots aren't?

 

[Fozzy]

as soon as the economy went south every netjets pilots experienced between 15-20% pay reduction.

Yup.

 

[gunfyter]

you sir are doing the right thing. B19 would be proud.......:beer:

Between getting no overtime this year and bidding off that 18 day schedule.... I do spend more time at home....

 

[gutshotdraw]

Yea I'd like to see one such cut! Your humor is killing us, look at Gun, he dropped his coffee cup on his computer.

I wish I had only dropped my coffee. I vomited a little in my mouth....

 

[HazMat]

fischman I wouldn't worry about Avantair and people leaving. Our new owners are quite happy here. We hear it all the time. I dont get why it is so offensive that Avantair is doing well. The talk about Netjets here at Avantair is always very positive. We all feel for the 500 who will be out of work and put ourselves in their shoes. Why do you wish the same for us? I just don't get it. The fact is we are going to be here for a long time. We are well taken care of and thankful that we dont have to worry about our next paycheck.
By the way guys not having overtime available or reducing your work schedule is very different from refusing your yearly salary increase. I doubt anyone is doing that

 

[Willy21]

By the way guys not having overtime available or reducing your work schedule is very different from refusing your yearly salary increase. I doubt anyone is doing that

Tell that to the people that planned their budget with that overtime or full schedule in mind. Pre-'08 it was normal to see extended days and overtime to the tune of 10-15% of you base pay. People made commitments based on what they thought their earnings would be and now what they are bringing in does not equal what they thought they would have. It is easy to be on the outside looking in and say that they did not take a pay cut, but when you are in the middle of paying the bills it looks like you did.

Situations like this allows me to remember that you can't understand why people do what they do until you walk in their shoes. There is always a rhyme to the reason.

 

[imacdog]

Tell that to the people that planned their budget with that overtime or full schedule in mind. Pre-'08 it was normal to see extended days and overtime to the tune of 10-15% of you base pay. People made commitments based on what they thought their earnings would be and now what they are bringing in does not equal what they thought they would have.

The people that made committments based on extra money they were making are straight up idiots.

From a soon to be furloughed guy.

 

[glasspilot]

Yeah, what imacdog said...

Plus, why would you worry about the guys not getting overtime when there are THOUSANDS of guys not getting anytime right now?

Plus, would the folks bitchin about Avantair COO pay care to post what the COO at NetJets makes? Why is it pilots at other companies are complaining about our company...right before a massive furlough at their company? Do you somehow blame us?

 

[AftCG182]

Yeah, what imacdog said...

Plus, why would you worry about the guys not getting overtime when there are THOUSANDS of guys not getting anytime right now?

Plus, would the folks bitchin about Avantair COO pay care to post what the COO at NetJets makes? Why is it pilots at other companies are complaining about our company...right before a massive furlough at their company? Do you somehow blame us?

Life is downright miserable right now for a lot of our brothers/sisters in our industry. Our (Avantair's) COO, along with the rest of Avantair's management types, through their careful pre-planning for the Fractional's current situation deserve more than a little credit. We're in decent shape thanks to their proactiveness. There shouldn't be any hard feelings towards anyone at Avantair. We're not intentionally taking advantage of anyone's hardship, nor will we ever do that.

As I've said many, many times... Let's work together through this hard time. We'll survive, just like always. I had labor with Brazillian "legitimate" landscapers in the morning and drive skydivers in the afternoon/nites post-9/11 to pay my bills. It sucked, but it worked out. Let's suck it up, keep things in perspective, and work through this while keeping our dignity and professionalism about us.

I understand that Flightinfo is more about debate than pep-talk, but we can't afford to f-around right now. Solidarity as a pilot group will get us through this.

 

[gunfyter]

By the way guys not having overtime available or reducing your work schedule is very different from refusing your yearly salary increase. I doubt anyone is doing that

People did more than that ... they took voluntary measures -- reduced schedule and pay....

So yes they earned LESS than the published payscales.

 

[jonjuan]

People did more than that ... they took voluntary measures -- reduced schedule and pay....

So yes they earned LESS than the published payscales.

But it was still voluntary........

 

[gunfyter]

But it was still voluntary........

OK... I thought that was the point. Am I wrong?

 

[Willy21]

The people that made committments based on extra money they were making are straight up idiots.

From a soon to be furloughed guy.

I understand your situation, but the one guy I am thinking about made a commitment to pay for his wife's medical bills that are not covered by insurance. I would say that any one of us would do the same given similar circumstances. It would be a hard pill to swallow knowing that the money you thought was going to pay for the treatment that might keep you wife alive is not going to make it to your bank account.

As for the guys/gals with boats, vacation homes, cars and airplanes......, that is a discussion for another day.

Again, you can't understand why people do what they do until you walk in their shoes.

 

[CA1900]

I'll repost them and highlight them in bold for you...

We need a popcorn smiley here, too. :laugh:

 

[fischman]

fischman I wouldn't worry about Avantair and people leaving. Our new owners are quite happy here. We hear it all the time. I dont get why it is so offensive that Avantair is doing well. The talk about Netjets here at Avantair is always very positive. We all feel for the 500 who will be out of work and put ourselves in their shoes. Why do you wish the same for us? I just don't get it. The fact is we are going to be here for a long time. We are well taken care of and thankful that we dont have to worry about our next paycheck.
By the way guys not having overtime available or reducing your work schedule is very different from refusing your yearly salary increase. I doubt anyone is doing that

I missed the part where I wished Avantair to furlough?

I have no doubt of the professionalism of your company and crews. I'm sure your owners are happy. (But I'm sure they'd be happier at NetJets )

 

[wacoflyr]

(But I'm sure they'd be happier at NetJets )

Yes, we would all be happier if we could spend (waste) twice the money that we actually do. Um, well maybe not. Say, this cheaper cabin is actually nicer!

 

[fischman]

Yeah, what imacdog said...

Plus, why would you worry about the guys not getting overtime when there are THOUSANDS of guys not getting anytime right now?

Plus, would the folks bitchin about Avantair COO pay care to post what the COO at NetJets makes? Why is it pilots at other companies are complaining about our company...right before a massive furlough at their company? Do you somehow blame us?

The COO of NetJets isn't involved in this thread.

Avantair has taken some owners from NetJets. So that company isn't completely innocent to the cause of the NetJets furlough. However, it is a drop of water in the ocean compared to what our own management did to us.

 

[Dingo221]

That's named " Competition"

 

[imacdog]

I understand your situation, but the one guy I am thinking about made a commitment to pay for his wife's medical bills that are not covered by insurance. I would say that any one of us would do the same given similar circumstances. It would be a hard pill to swallow knowing that the money you thought was going to pay for the treatment that might keep you wife alive is not going to make it to your bank account.

As for the guys/gals with boats, vacation homes, cars and airplanes......, that is a discussion for another day.

Again, you can't understand why people do what they do until you walk in their shoes.

Sounds like something he was committed to whether he had the money or not. Really doesn't have anything to do with counting on extra money that one has no control over getting. In either case it sucks to lose a percentage of your income, but the overtime money at NJA should never, ever be counted on if one has a choice.

 

[Pervis]

Sounds like something he was committed to whether he had the money or not. Really doesn't have anything to do with counting on extra money that one has no control over getting. In either case it sucks to lose a percentage of your income, but the overtime money at NJA should never, ever be counted on if one has a choice.

Couldn't agree more. But where was this reaction when Olsen and clan pushed IBB because of the 10-15% stipend in OT, holiday pay, etc. They claimed we should consider this in the total income picture. Lots of bobble heads went right along with this. Try telling your creditors that.

 

[jonjuan]

Couldn't agree more. But where was this reaction when Olsen and clan pushed IBB because of the 10-15% stipend in OT, holiday pay, etc. They claimed we should consider this in the total income picture. Lots of bobble heads went right along with this. Try telling your creditors that.

Agree- it's like expecting your investments in the stock market to go up 10-15% per year because that's what you saw for 2-3 years. Now that your annual return is zero on your principal, you consider that a loss? Weird.
Past performance is no guarantee of future returns, unless it's guaranteed.