So was B19 right or wrong?

[wacoflyr]

The pilots at NJA will be paid what we are worth and nothing less.

Ahh. I'm there with you on this one. I'm not trying to pick an argument with you guys. I respect you all. But what are we pilots worth? We live in a time when all of the major professions are being devalued. Lawyers and doctors, pilots and engineers, we all have less earning power than we had twenty, thirty years ago. We pilots may have taken the biggest hit. Capital, on the other hand, has gained enormously. Executives and entreprenuers continue to increase their lead in wealth creation, leaving the rest of us in the dust.
How much am I worth? I bring an intelligent and educated approach to a difficult and highly technical problem. I have a highly perishable skill that is hard to acquire. I work hard to acquire knowledge and develop judgement. I collaborate with a colleague on matters that require swift decisions, and skillfull execution. I hold the lives of my well heeled passengers in my hands at mach .7 at flight level 410. How much am I worth? I think six figures, minimum.
The market does not agree with me. And the market will decide, no matter what I believe. But the market will also get what it pays for. So far, it has Lexington, Kentucky, and Buffalo, New York. I'm waiting for the next smoking hole with two underpaid and pilots at the bottom of it. What the public will see is all of the rest of the passengers who follow them in. Unfortunately, that probably will not change the market. Maybe an act of congress will. If the standards are raised at the airlines, and airline pilots find themselves making more money, then we can reasonably expect to make more as well. I'm not holding my breath.
How much am I worth? More than what I make. You can bank on it.

Wacoflyr

 

[William Holiday]

Nice in theory, but almost impossible in practice. Too many people out of work already and if they can't make it work, they might as well shut it down.

Who wants to own a busines that doesn't make money?

Whoa, hold on to that horse. Were talking 500 pilots....Not an ENTIRE COMPANY. This economy continues to pick up steam and nobody is giving up the jet if they can afford it.

Netjets is the 800lb gorilla, if they go down the tubes, it will be for one reason......Piss poor management. Lets not forget, these operations make cash with parked planes, much different from any airline operation. Keep those customers happy......Not doing that, will be the cause for every frac failure. My point is this, 500 is along way from the door slamming.

BTW if your one of the pilots, who is about to hit the street, keep your head up. You might be back sooner than you think.....might not be flying, but you'll be back !! Don't buy into all the doom and gloom B.S. The World wont end and neither will you.

 

[imacdog]

Ahh. I'm there with you on this one. I'm not trying to pick an argument with you guys. I respect you all. But what are we pilots worth?

In this case the pilots at NJA are worth what was negotiated in their current contract.

 

[Fozzy]

The pilots at NJA will be paid what we are worth and nothing less. If the company is unable to produce profits with this cost then it will be time for all of us to move on.

+1
This is what I have been saying for many years now.

My paycheck is not a way to profitability. That is what we are paying upper management for. IF they can't get our house in order, we are screwed. It has nothing to do with me, how I do my job and what I am payed.

 

[BlueNose]

BTW.... You really have to hand it to FLOPS management. They shrunk their fleet and RIFd the pilot force from almost 1000 strong down to about 300 or so ... LONG BEFORE the financial crisis of September 2008.

FO 2004-2008 should serve as a cautionary tale for why you don't hire execs from the major airlines into the luxury segment of our industry (or any luxury service industry, for that matter). Should have been no surprise to mother Raytheon that the duo they put in charge blindly pursued operational efficiency, while pi$$ing off longtime owners and alienating loyal employees. But then again a defense contractor wouldn't know luxury service if it bit 'em on the backside. They created their own mini-downturn. That being said, things have changed and I'm hopeful that we can turn it around and recover as the economy starts to pick up next year (or the next).

Hopefully the folks at Flex and XO won't have to relive the same lesson with their new ex-airline leaders.

Airline Executive Online Leadership course:
Addressing Employee Complaints

 

[gunfyter]

Yeah but ... you didn't address how they saw into the future the need to reduce fleet and pilot force. They were way ahead of the curve. Maybe they were consulting with B19.

I need those guys to pick stocks for me....

 

[gutshotdraw]

Remember also that until this past summer when demand really dropped, NJI was OPERATIONALLY profitable almost since its inception which means the fractional model can work with only the management fee and occupied hourly fee revenue streams. All divisions of the company have been working hard the past several months to get back to that position. I don't see pilot salaries and benefits as an exhorbinant part of the cost equation but overstaffing for existing demand is. Unfortunately, pilot furloughs and the earlier support staff reductions were painful, but necessary parts of achieving that goal.

Netjets as a company has the critical mass of clients to get to operational profitability within the next 6-8 months. Sales will eventually rebound and provide the profit gravy that BK is looking for. JMHO

 

[gret]

NetJets has made money 2 out of the 25 years of their existence. Are you kidding?

 

[realityman]

NetJets has made money 2 out of the 25 years of their existence. Are you kidding?

Yes and no. What numbers are you looking at?

First of all, there were a number of years where we were negotiating our contract (the one that failed in 2004). During those years, NJA put out numbers that consistently showed a loss. And the losses mounted to even bigger numbers in 2005 when we really put the screws to them. But were they believable numbers? Interestingly, the company allowed us to have a cursory look at the books so we could see the losses for ourselves. But when we pushed for a far more in-depth look at the numbers via a forensic audit, the books slammed shut faster than a sphincter after a constipated crap. Why? To most of us on the road, it was obvious. They can show losses, but they wouldn't show HOW they lost the money. But we saw EJM (a Netjets company) charging ourselves $90/quart of oil when we needed it. Charging ourselves ridiculous sums of money for lav services. And perhaps the biggest of all, the expansion money for Netjets Europe was coming straight out of the earnings of NJA (a very poorly kept secret).

So were we losing money? Well, overall, the books said Netjets Inc. was losing money. But when we wanted to see just what NJA was doing, we were told to piss off. Gee, I wonder why. Truth is, NJA was making PLENTY of money. They just hid it very well (and in some cases, not so well).

Secondly, after our contract was signed in 2005, we instantly went from record losses to record profits. Now, I admit we cost NJA some bucks during our fight in 2005, but from record losses to record profits in a matter of a few months? Either the industry was exuberant about our new contract and owners started flocking in faster than we could count, or maybe we weren't losing so much money after all.

I suspect that we've made money for far more than just 2 out of the last 25 years. How many? I can't pin it down.

At any rate, B19 was wrong. We aren't in the situation we're currently in BECAUSE of our union. Heck, the company hasn't even approached us yet about concessions, so maybe they don't believe we're the problem either. This is only a theory, so take it for what it's worth, but I suspect NJA is in the condition it's in right now due to a horrible economy, lack of sales, and poor previous management. Remember though, it's only a theory.

B19 is on my ignore list, so I can't read anything he writes, but let me know if he decides to admit that POOR MANAGEMENT is at least part of the problem we're now facing today. Running a business without a real business plan, overhiring, ignoring the realities of the present economy, refusing to address the massive waste (which the union had been pointing to for YEARS), and many other missteps they made.

Or will it be the same old "Bad union, bad!!"?

 

[realityman]

PS- during many of our supposed money-losing years, we had some captains barely making $40K/year. Even our highest paid weren't getting near $100K. At $40K for a captain, I doubt you could point the finger at the union for any losses the company may have been experiencing.

With possibly the exception of 2005, the union has not been the problem for NJA. Nor will it be the downfall of NJA.