So was B19 right or wrong?

[AftCG182]

After joining what the Fractional profession (from the Regional arena), the first things that I noticed were a sense of brotherhood and mutual respect beween the different players. The sniping and constant bickering/b!tching of the 121 world had instantly disappeared. I felt as if the Fractional lifestyle had been custom designed, just for me. (Set aside for a minute the fact that I also felt that I had found the perfect company in Avantair). In the Fractional world, we're experiencing some really tough times right now. Unfounded accusations and sh!t-talking the other players in the industry will only compound the misery.

Avantair is doing pretty well right now. Why not let us keep the Fractional momentum going while the economy and stock market recover. Before you know it, you'll be back to making fun of us for having propellers and no flight attendant.

Mutual respect and level-headedness. Those can be two of the casualties of an economic downturn, along with the resulting rough times for the industry. You can bet that the Avantair pilot group will be respectful and reasonable towards those less fortunate over the next year or two. We're all going to get through this. If we can keep our dignity intact as well... then we will have really come out on top.

Good luck everyone.

 

[NETFLIER]

The point that I always made was that unions are unions, they all act the same.

I'm not union bashing. All I've ever done is told everybody that unions always act the same... the NJ union didn't turn out any different than any other union did it?

The furloughs and layoffs are still going to occur...

The contract will be next.

This will be the exact same union cycle that always happens... I've said it right along, the "industry leading contract" would undergo a correction and would pull back to reality. The contract has been a nightmare to the union members and the company for a year now. Just like all unions are. Different day, same union actions.

Nothing I've said is new, it's all been based on historical actions.

It's just the fractional industry's turn this time to bring it all back to what it should be.

Yes..... I was right, but it wasn't my predictions. It was however, me simply pointing out that unions are all the same.

What were you saying when we signed this industry leading contract and the company followed that up with 2 years of industry leading profit, including $450 million just 2 years ago.

The only thing that "caught" us IS: 1. the worst downturn since the 1920's, and 2. a graceful buy-back clause we have with our owners.

B, anyone can predict layoffs when the finacial industry shuts down almost every economy in the world. But i can also predict in economic good times and bad you will still be a DumbA$$........

 

[steelersrule74]

2) I have no idea who this B19 person is. How do you know who he is, and how do you know that he actually works here?

The vast majority of the Avantair pilot group is here for the long haul. I plan on arguing with you guys when I'm 70 (I'm 42 now) and taking up a seat that some 20 year old feels that he deserves more than me.

regarding your first point. there's a great thread about avantair. you should ask kevin why he so conspicuously avoids those.

as to your second, i truly don't care if avantair has a union or not. if the company needs one, it will have it. just don't rely on your company's good will for the next 28 years and then when you're 58, easily replaced by cheaper labor and have no CBA protections act surprised that it didn't work out.

 

[HiSpeedFlyer]

If we told you that, It would ruin the surprise now.

regarding your first point. there's a great thread about avantair. you should ask kevin why he so conspicuously avoids those.

as to your second, i truly don't care if avantair has a union or not. if the company needs one, it will have it. just don't rely on your company's good will for the next 28 years and then when you're 58, easily replaced by cheaper labor and have no CBA protections act surprised that it didn't work out.

Now there you go, ruining the surprise and the dirty lil' secret.....:bomb:

 

[B19 Flyer]

That sound you hear? It's union history repeating itself, over and over.

What were you saying when we signed this industry leading contract and the company followed that up with 2 years of industry leading profit, including $450 million just 2 years ago.

The only thing that "caught" us IS: 1. the worst downturn since the 1920's, and 2. a graceful buy-back clause we have with our owners.

B, anyone can predict layoffs when the finacial industry shuts down almost every economy in the world. But i can also predict in economic good times and bad you will still be a DumbA$$........

Actually, no.. I'm not a Dumba$$. The only ones that qualify for that statement are those that think the union contract is there to protect them. That's laughable.

This is exactly what happened in 1999/2001 with the industry leading contracts at United, Delta, AMR.

They had profitable years after signing the contract, and when the economy tanked, the unions refused to budge.. two of the three of them went into bankruptcy because the unions created uncontrollable cash burn problems after they shed all the other debt they could, the third one (AMR) was on the brink of bankruptcy when the union conceded.

All the CEOs at the majors were heros when those contracts were signed and NOBODY cared what they were making when the economy was good and there was money for all. When the downturn occurred, they were all failures when the unions refused to respond with the economy downturn.

This is exactly what is happening right now at NJ. The union is going to dig it's heels in, and refuse to act in a timely fashion. This will force the company to react in a way the union won't like, and the normal, expected union rhetoric will happen. Nothing new..

For over three years now I've been saying the the union is all nice when times are good, but they act slowly and will sacrifice the bottom of the seniority list to keep the upper part of the list high paid. It's already happening, and it's only going to get worse.

Meanwhile, those non-union fracs are going to keep chugging along and will be able to react quicker to the uptick when it happens.

Yep, you can have your unions...they are all the same.

 

[NETFLIER]

Actually, no.. I'm not a Dumba$$. The only ones that qualify for that statement are those that think the union contract is there to protect them. That's laughable.

This is exactly what happened in 1999/2001 with the industry leading contracts at United, Delta, AMR.

They had profitable years after signing the contract, and when the economy tanked, the unions refused to budge.. two of the three of them went into bankruptcy because the unions created uncontrollable cash burn problems after they shed all the other debt they could, the third one (AMR) was on the brink of bankruptcy when the union conceded.

All the CEOs at the majors were heros when those contracts were signed and NOBODY cared what they were making when the economy was good and there was money for all. When the downturn occurred, they were all failures when the unions refused to respond with the economy downturn.

This is exactly what is happening right now at NJ. The union is going to dig it's heels in, and refuse to act in a timely fashion. This will force the company to react in a way the union won't like, and the normal, expected union rhetoric will happen. Nothing new..

For over three years now I've been saying the the union is all nice when times are good, but they act slowly and will sacrifice the bottom of the seniority list to keep the upper part of the list high paid. It's already happening, and it's only going to get worse.

Meanwhile, those non-union fracs are going to keep chugging along and will be able to react quicker to the uptick when it happens.

Yep, you can have your unions...they are all the same.[/QU

Thanks again for not addressing the fact of the 450 million profit, shows your motif for being here. Your redirect back to union "no good theme" is weak at best. Your prediction in a down market is no harder that " i think in the winter time its gonna snow someplace."

here are some other you may use to display your self tagged brilliance:
The sun will shine tomorrow
The stock market will go up and down
Water is wet.


Get a life Freak-o....

 

[AftCG182]

regarding your first point. there's a great thread about avantair. you should ask kevin why he so conspicuously avoids those.

as to your second, i truly don't care if avantair has a union or not. if the company needs one, it will have it. just don't rely on your company's good will for the next 28 years and then when you're 58, easily replaced by cheaper labor and have no CBA protections act surprised that it didn't work out.

On a lighter note for a moment: your avatar creeps me out every time I see it. That's because I had to spend three days of my vacation this year, travelling to Daytona to settle a bet from the superbowl last year. Forking over the Monopoly Money wasn't the worst part. No, the worst part was having to put on one of those damn Steelers jerseys and buy all the beer at the Oyster Pub and also at the two "pole-dance" bars in Daytona. They make the girls wear bikinis now! I can see more skin at the beach during the day! I've crossed Daytona off my list of places to spend my vacation $$$.

 

[sshrae]

just don't rely on your company's good will for the next 28 years and then when you're 58, easily replaced by cheaper labor and have no CBA protections act surprised that it didn't work out.[/QUOTE]

Good point, although being a bengals fan I take exception to that avatar. Tough year for steel town. Payback from that playoff game when they took out Palmer. I'll have to find a good picture of Big Ben getting worked from last week for my avatar.

 

[dime line]

Actually, no.. I'm not a Dumba$$. The only ones that qualify for that statement are those that think the union contract is there to protect them. That's laughable.

This is exactly what happened in 1999/2001 with the industry leading contracts at United, Delta, AMR.
They had profitable years after signing the contract, and when the economy tanked, the unions refused to budge.. two of the three of them went into bankruptcy because the unions created uncontrollable cash burn problems after they shed all the other debt they could, the third one (AMR) was on the brink of bankruptcy when the union conceded.​

Actually you are a dumbaz, but that is a different topic. Looks like it was that nasty UNION contract that paid Tilton more money in 2006 than what the company actually made. Those dann union contracts!​

United Airlines CEO Glenn Tilton received $39.7 million in 2006, including salary, bonus, incentives,​

perks, above-market returns on deferred compensation and the estimated value of stock options and

awards granted during the year. At the same time, United Flight Attendants continue to experience lifechanging

wage, healthcare and work rule concessions, along with termination of their pension plan.
Incredibly, Tilton’s 2006 compensation exceeded the airline’s entire annual profit of $25 million reported​

by United’s parent company UAL, Inc (UAL).​

 

[steelersrule74]

Good point, although being a bengals fan I take exception to that avatar. Tough year for steel town. Payback from that playoff game when they took out Palmer. I'll have to find a good picture of Big Ben getting worked from last week for my avatar.

knowing the bungles history, i wouldn't cancel any january plans just yet........:beer:

 

[sshrae]

knowing the bungles history, i wouldn't cancel any january plans just yet........:beer:

Yeah I know. We tend to choke, it might almost be better if they just blow it now rather than give us false hope.
ss

 

[corpflunkie]

regarding your first point. there's a great thread about avantair. you should ask kevin why he so conspicuously avoids those.

as to your second, i truly don't care if avantair has a union or not. if the company needs one, it will have it. just don't rely on your company's good will for the next 28 years and then when you're 58, easily replaced by cheaper labor and have no CBA protections act surprised that it didn't work out.

Wow!! a potential outing. I will make it a point to ask next time I am in HQ. If you are right, I am WAY off on who I suspected B19 was

 

[B19 Flyer]

Thanks again for not addressing the fact of the 450 million profit, shows your motif for being here. Your redirect back to union "no good theme" is weak at best. Your prediction in a down market is no harder that " i think in the winter time its gonna snow someplace."

here are some other you may use to display your self tagged brilliance:
The sun will shine tomorrow
The stock market will go up and down
Water is wet.


Get a life Freak-o....

Who cares about the profits? Don't you think that there should have been some of the profits put aside for the downturn in the economy that always happens? Profits aren't there for just the moment, they are there to sustain the company through good times and bad. Unions only negotiate for the good times and never react properly when the bad times occur. Like now.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Where are NJW words of wisdom when we need them?

regarding your first point. there's a great thread about avantair. you should ask kevin why he so conspicuously avoids those.

as to your second, i truly don't care if avantair has a union or not. if the company needs one, it will have it. just don't rely on your company's good will for the next 28 years and then when you're 58, easily replaced by cheaper labor and have no CBA protections act surprised that it didn't work out.

I don't avoid the avantair threads, the citation share (air) threads or any of the others. I just post where I feel like it. Another conspiracy theory.

Threads with NJ (and FLOPS) on the other hand are classic examples of what happens when unions invade a company.

All you guys in the non-union fracs need to pay close attention to how NJASAP and 1108 are handling this ongoing chaos right now. (quite poorly ) 1108 was greedy and there is utter chaos and malcontent while these companies are dealing with these unions.

The industry leading contract isn't going to be "industry leading" when it gets cut down to size. All the promises made by 1108 are going to be broken, and when it's over the underbelly of the beast will be exposed, and those non-union fracs are going to keep chugging along.

For a short time those NJ guys got their high pay. But when it's all over, those non-union guys will all agree that keeping a union off the property had been the best thing that ever happened to them.

Where are NJW words of wisdom when we need them?

 

[steelersrule74]

LMAO.....you set the record for how many times a person can be wrong in one post. but shoot, i'm a trusting guy. BTW, I'm thinking of buying some stock in Avantair. Sounds like it's a great company. All knowing B19 can you give me some advice? You proclaim much knowledge about unions and their cost. since avantair doesn't have one, you think I should buy? Is the stock undervalued or overvalued? if I already have some, do you think I should hold on to it?

no worries, it's just an opinion. the SEC doesn't read these boards, not that that would apply to you........

 

[brokeflyer]

Who cares about the profits? Don't you think that there should have been some of the profits put aside for the downturn in the economy that always happens? Profits aren't there for just the moment, they are there to sustain the company through good times and bad. Unions only negotiate for the good times and never react properly when the bad times occur. Like now.

thats the question I want answered. What did the company do with all the profits, while no airplanes were being delivered? I'm glad to see you coming around and seeing how bad the working man is getting fcked by the company. Guess you aint all bad after all.

corporate CEO/management greed has become so bad its amazing this country hasnt collapsed already. Im no fan of a union but management is where all the money is hidden. Sorry but thats just the way it is.

NJ...AT THIS MOMENT can afford a CBA that has ALL THE NUMBERS doubled.

remember, there are no bad employees, only bad managers.

 

[fischman]

I don't avoid the avantair threads, the citation share (air) threads or any of the others. I just post where I feel like it. Another conspiracy theory.

Threads with NJ (and FLOPS) on the other hand are classic examples of what happens when unions invade a company.

All you guys in the non-union fracs need to pay close attention to how NJASAP and 1108 are handling this ongoing chaos right now. (quite poorly ) 1108 was greedy and there is utter chaos and malcontent while these companies are dealing with these unions.

Yes. Let's talk about how NetJets wanted to try to save job and how NJASAP kept them from doing just that.

B19, PLEASE don't let facts get in the way. Nevermind how NJASAP came to NetJets MONTHS before the $h!t hit the fan telling them about our upcoming financial troubles. Nevermind the fact that NJASAP has been collecting waste reports from our members to try to help the company eliminate it (which has fallen on deaf ears for YEARS). Nevermind the fact that NJASAP went to the company with Voluntary Measures designed to help save hundreds of jobs (which the company eventually no longer believed in and canceled). Again, I'd HATE for you to have to come out of your bubble and see the REAL WORLD. What else can NJASAP do to convince you that we are not here to destroy the company? How have we created chaos? We have FIXED chaos due to poor management.

Speaking of REAL WORLD, Avantair is seeing some nice growth as people are looking for a cheaper way to enjoy fractional ownership. What are you planning for Avantair when the fractional market swings the way away from turboprops and wants the size and speed a jet can afford? When the pilots become upset because you are going to have to lay them off are you going to help save their jobs? Are you going to quit if a union ever comes on property? Or will you threaten all who desire representation and a contract (which I'm sure you enjoy having). Why is management allowed to have contracts and pilots aren't?

 

[B19 Flyer]

Facts? Yeah, let's look at them...

Yes. Let's talk about how NetJets wanted to try to save job and how NJASAP kept them from doing just that.

B19, PLEASE don't let facts get in the way. Nevermind how NJASAP came to NetJets MONTHS before the $h!t hit the fan telling them about our upcoming financial troubles. Nevermind the fact that NJASAP has been collecting waste reports from our members to try to help the company eliminate it (which has fallen on deaf ears for YEARS). Nevermind the fact that NJASAP went to the company with Voluntary Measures designed to help save hundreds of jobs (which the company eventually no longer believed in and canceled). Again, I'd HATE for you to have to come out of your bubble and see the REAL WORLD. What else can NJASAP do to convince you that we are not here to destroy the company? How have we created chaos? We have FIXED chaos due to poor management.

Speaking of REAL WORLD, Avantair is seeing some nice growth as people are looking for a cheaper way to enjoy fractional ownership. What are you planning for Avantair when the fractional market swings the way away from turboprops and wants the size and speed a jet can afford? When the pilots become upset because you are going to have to lay them off are you going to help save their jobs? Are you going to quit if a union ever comes on property? Or will you threaten all who desire representation and a contract (which I'm sure you enjoy having). Why is management allowed to have contracts and pilots aren't?

Let's get the facts straight. Look at the turmoil NJ pilots are going through and have been through. Look at the turmoil FLOPS pilots are going through.

You can talk about all the stuff you want.. you and your union brethren have created a lot more hell for your companies than all the others put together.

Oh, and I've said this before.. contracts for management are offered to attract and maintain quality employees.

For that one reason alone, no union will ever be offered a contract. The union will ALWAYS need to resort to the greedy methods of forcing a contract on a company using bully tactics to get what they want because everybody that has ever been involved with a union knows that it's all about the greed and never about the good of the company.

All the crap you mentioned above? It's all trying to fix what the union screwed up. Nothing more... there is no honor in the unions actions above. They are just trying to bail themselves out of something the company shouldn't have been into in the first place.

 

[Fozzy]

And there it is

Oh, and I've said this before.. contracts for management are offered to attract and maintain quality employees.

And that folks is what management tools think of the pilots, you know the ones that actually do the real work.
If we all did our jobs as good as B19 and his ilk we all would be on the bread line.
Long walk, short pier.

 

[steelersrule74]

Oh, and I've said this before.. contracts for management are offered to attract and maintain quality employees.

and the starting wage at avantair is just barely above unemployment. I'm sure for the guys that actually fly the machine, recruiting quality crew members is fairly important. It's sad and tragic you think quality is something that only needs to apply to management.