So was B19 right or wrong?

7777

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Here we are. Now that Netjets is going to furlough, the arguments between the Netjets pro union faithful and B-19 have finally come to fruition.

So I ask this, was B-19 right?

Good luck to the Netjet folks who are going to be furloughed. Join the club.
 

ProFracPilot

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I disagree with the pretense of your question, which assumes the union is the reason for the furlough. So, no. B19 was/is not right. The union (and industry leading CBA they negotiated) has provided much needed guidance for the furlough and continues to protect the union membership. There are no job guarantees in life, but there are work rule protections. Furlough is by inverse seniority along with other severance considerations. Lacking a CBA, NetJets could have furloughed from the top or otherwise out of seniority.

Best of luck to those NetJets folks who are below the line.
 

Midge

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Here we are. Now that Netjets is going to furlough, the arguments between the Netjets pro union faithful and B-19 have finally come to fruition.

So I ask this, was B-19 right?

Good luck to the Netjet folks who are going to be furloughed. Join the club.
The economic downturn, the likes of which hasn't been seen in America since the 1920's, has everything to do with Net Jet's furloughs.
Comparing that to anti union arguments from some pimple faced prick management wannabe like B19 is completely stupid.
Good luck to anyone in this industry right now.
And to answer your question. No he wasn't right!
 

amaineiac

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Using the numbers from airline pilot central:

Shares has 20% on the street (non union)
Flex has 18% on the street (non union)
FLOPS has 40% on the street (non union)
XO Jet has 23% on the street (non union)
NetJets will have 17% on the street (union)

B19 blames all the industries woes on unions. I think it's pretty clear from the numbers above that he is wrong and is just a union hater.
 

CA1900

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amaineiac beat me to the numbers.

B19's claim from the beginning was that we'd fall hardest because of the union. As those numbers show, the opposite is true.

He said, "For the past three years I've been saying that the "industry leading contract" at NJ wasn't going to stick. There would be a correction, and when it happened it would be nasty." Again, wrong. Management specifically said they'd work within our contract, and weren't interested in renegotiating it.
 

GSXR600

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Using the numbers from airline pilot central:

Shares has 20% on the street (non union)
Flex has 18% on the street (non union)
FLOPS has 40% on the street (non union)
XO Jet has 23% on the street (non union)
NetJets will have 17% on the street (union)

B19 blames all the industries woes on unions. I think it's pretty clear from the numbers above that he is wrong and is just a union hater.
Ahhh! isn't FLOPS a union shop as well?
 

skyaddict

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NetJets business model did not suddenly get strained by the pay and work rule improvements, period- those, while not cheap, were small versus the effect of the economic downturn and the devaluation of business jets. NetJets, like many fracs, could have their employees work for free and still have to make major adjustments to cope with the scale of this downturn. And as has been pointed out, there is not the slightest interest in concessions being generated by pilots or management, due to recognition of this fact.
 
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993_Pilot

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Ahhh! isn't FLOPS a union shop as well?
Yes, but without a contract. Otherwise, amaineiac was right on the money, and B19 is Full of $h!t and just trying to push his anti union agenda.
 

waka

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Here we are. Now that Netjets is going to furlough, the arguments between the Netjets pro union faithful and B-19 have finally come to fruition.

So I ask this, was B-19 right?

Good luck to the Netjet folks who are going to be furloughed. Join the club.
With all due respect, you shouldn't have started this thread in the first place. By doing so, you implied that B19 holds some kind of significant part of the discussions. When, in fact, he is just a mindless union bashing troll that isn't worth the time of day.
 

B19 Flyer

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Be careful what you ask for...

Using the numbers from airline pilot central:

Shares has 20% on the street (non union)
Flex has 18% on the street (non union)
FLOPS has 40% on the street (non union)
XO Jet has 23% on the street (non union)
NetJets will have 17% on the street (union)

B19 blames all the industries woes on unions. I think it's pretty clear from the numbers above that he is wrong and is just a union hater.
Would somebody break this down into individual numbers and not cover these up in percentages? 17% from the largest frac seems like a heck of a lot of individual pilots.

Oh, and while your at it... include all the voluntary pilots from the torture NJ pilots had to go through last spring during the first attempt - add those to the numbers also. All of the nirvana that NJW and all the NJ pilots have been throwing at me for years seems to have come around.

I've stated that the "Industry Leading Contract" was going to result in "Industry Leading" furloughs.. and I'm quite sure I'm right (again) about that. The bigger the contract, the more that get furloughed.

Anybody want to start taking bets on when the contract gets reopened?

Yeah, that's the exact same contract that everybody told me that would never get touched..

Of course, that's the same contract and union workforce that was also untouchable a year ago, resulting in no furloughs or layoffs.

All you guys told me it could not happen.


Yep, it happened and it's not over yet...Sad really...


Be careful what you ask for....
 

doh

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Bobby serves a purpose. He solidifies our reasoning. He provides an opportunity to educate both ourselves and others. We need someone who is constantly and obviously wrong so we see more clearly what is right. JMO
 

BornAgainPagan

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Would somebody break this down into individual numbers and not cover these up in percentages? 17% from the largest frac seems like a heck of a lot of individual pilots.

Oh, and while your at it... include all the voluntary pilots from the torture NJ pilots had to go through last spring during the first attempt - add those to the numbers also. All of the nirvana that NJW and all the NJ pilots have been throwing at me for years seems to have come around.

I've stated that the "Industry Leading Contract" was going to result in "Industry Leading" furloughs.. and I'm quite sure I'm right (again) about that. The bigger the contract, the more that get furloughed.

Anybody want to start taking bets on when the contract gets reopened?

Yeah, that's the exact same contract that everybody told me that would never get touched..

Of course, that's the same contract and union workforce that was also untouchable a year ago, resulting in no furloughs or layoffs.

All you guys told me it could not happen.


Yep, it happened and it's not over yet...Sad really...


Be careful what you ask for....
How incredibly stupid.

The percentages don't say jack about a union's involvement in the number of furloughed pilots. I know that you're disconnected from reality but jeeez, have you even read a newspaper in the last year? I suppose the unions caused the stock market to crash.:rolleyes:

Whatever. Your adolescent brain is on a tired old body.
 

B19 Flyer

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Unions are all the same....

With all due respect, you shouldn't have started this thread in the first place. By doing so, you implied that B19 holds some kind of significant part of the discussions. When, in fact, he is just a mindless union bashing troll that isn't worth the time of day.
The point that I always made was that unions are unions, they all act the same.

I'm not union bashing. All I've ever done is told everybody that unions always act the same... the NJ union didn't turn out any different than any other union did it?

The furloughs and layoffs are still going to occur...

The contract will be next.

This will be the exact same union cycle that always happens... I've said it right along, the "industry leading contract" would undergo a correction and would pull back to reality. The contract has been a nightmare to the union members and the company for a year now. Just like all unions are. Different day, same union actions.

Nothing I've said is new, it's all been based on historical actions.

It's just the fractional industry's turn this time to bring it all back to what it should be.

Yes..... I was right, but it wasn't my predictions. It was however, me simply pointing out that unions are all the same.
 

doh

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Before I could hit the submit button, Bob chimed in. Read his post. Not only will you see that his reasoning is wrong, you will also get a lesson in how not to spell and punctuate. Bobby, you really need to take that remedial english class.
 

B19 Flyer

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How incredibly stupid.

The percentages don't say jack about a union's involvement in the number of furloughed pilots. I know that you're disconnected from reality but jeeez, have you even read a newspaper in the last year? I suppose the unions caused the stock market to crash.:rolleyes:

Whatever. Your adolescent brain is on a tired old body.
Same thing.... 2001 through 2003. Industry leading contracts, same results. History repeating itself.
 

BornAgainPagan

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Nothing I've said is new, it's all been based on historical actions.

Give me a break.You cannot base what you say on history unless your perception of history's had any amount of validity. You're too stupid to do such a thing.
 

B19 Flyer

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Before I could hit the submit button, Bob chimed in. Read his post. Not only will you see that his reasoning is wrong, you will also get a lesson in how not to spell and punctuate. Bobby, you really need to take that remedial english class.
Not Bob, but you know that...

Same exact thing is happening as Part 121 went through.

Industry Leading Contract... economy bites the dust.

Same thing, same results.. go look through those news articles and you will predict the future of the NJ contract...
 

B19 Flyer

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Too stubborn to admit I was right about history repeating itself, eh?

Give me a break.You cannot base what you say on history unless your perception of history's had any amount of validity. You're too stupid to do such a thing.
It's the exact same thing....

Union gets big industry leading contract, economy bites the dust, union tries to hang on to the big contract...

First furloughs...

Next layoffs...

Then contract... once...

Not enough...

Bankruptcy to force the final changes...


Don't think it can't happen????? Nobody thought the layoffs would ever happen. It's unfolding identical, almost even the same time frame.

Yep, the sooner your union gets back to the bargaining table, the sooner the bloodletting will stop. History has shown that an industry leading contract nearly always pulls the company to the brink.

It won't happen though, and once again... you won't admit that I was right.
 

gunfyter

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Ahhh! isn't FLOPS a union shop as well?

FLOPS has NO CBA. 19 said the CBA is the problem... Correct me if i am wrong... Did not the furloughs at FLOPS begin BEFORE there was a union?

Regardless ... the facts show whether there is a Union or not, is not a factor in industry furloughs....
 

amaineiac

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Ahhh! isn't FLOPS a union shop as well?
Sorry for the mistake.

The point that I always made was that unions are unions, they all act the same.

I'm not union bashing. All I've ever done is told everybody that unions always act the same... the NJ union didn't turn out any different than any other union did it?
That is union bashing. That would be like me saying all management sucks. In reality, there are good ones and bad ones. Ones like UAL, Mesa, AMR and a few others that I'm sure you worship. On the other side, there's SWA.

Would somebody break this down into individual numbers and not cover these up in percentages? 17% from the largest frac seems like a heck of a lot of individual pilots.
Cover them with percentages? I spent the extra time breaking them down into percentages just to make them relevant. I bet if I told you my 1 share of BRK.A was up 1% today, you'd probably tell me you did better in the market because your 10 shares of MESA doubled.

Most of those that took the 1 year LOA will be swallowed up with this furlough, so that number is not relevant. If you add those that took the early out, it would put us inline with shares and XO jet.

Anybody want to start taking bets on when the contract gets reopened?
The boss said he isn't looking for any concessions and the contract in it's current form works with their plan. So unless he's not being honest, there is no need to change it. Management would never lie, would the B19? From everything the union has told us so far, DS seems honorable and a straight shooter. He's cleaning up the previous managements mistakes.
 
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