So was B19 right or wrong?

[7777]

Here we are. Now that Netjets is going to furlough, the arguments between the Netjets pro union faithful and B-19 have finally come to fruition.

So I ask this, was B-19 right?

Good luck to the Netjet folks who are going to be furloughed. Join the club.

 

[ProFracPilot]

I disagree with the pretense of your question, which assumes the union is the reason for the furlough. So, no. B19 was/is not right. The union (and industry leading CBA they negotiated) has provided much needed guidance for the furlough and continues to protect the union membership. There are no job guarantees in life, but there are work rule protections. Furlough is by inverse seniority along with other severance considerations. Lacking a CBA, NetJets could have furloughed from the top or otherwise out of seniority.

Best of luck to those NetJets folks who are below the line.

 

[Midge]

Here we are. Now that Netjets is going to furlough, the arguments between the Netjets pro union faithful and B-19 have finally come to fruition.

So I ask this, was B-19 right?

Good luck to the Netjet folks who are going to be furloughed. Join the club.

The economic downturn, the likes of which hasn't been seen in America since the 1920's, has everything to do with Net Jet's furloughs.
Comparing that to anti union arguments from some pimple faced prick management wannabe like B19 is completely stupid.
Good luck to anyone in this industry right now.
And to answer your question. No he wasn't right!

 

[amaineiac]

Using the numbers from airline pilot central:

Shares has 20% on the street (non union)
Flex has 18% on the street (non union)
FLOPS has 40% on the street (non union)
XO Jet has 23% on the street (non union)
NetJets will have 17% on the street (union)

B19 blames all the industries woes on unions. I think it's pretty clear from the numbers above that he is wrong and is just a union hater.

 

[CA1900]

amaineiac beat me to the numbers.

B19's claim from the beginning was that we'd fall hardest because of the union. As those numbers show, the opposite is true.

He said, "For the past three years I've been saying that the "industry leading contract" at NJ wasn't going to stick. There would be a correction, and when it happened it would be nasty." Again, wrong. Management specifically said they'd work within our contract, and weren't interested in renegotiating it.

 

[GSXR600]

Using the numbers from airline pilot central:

Shares has 20% on the street (non union)
Flex has 18% on the street (non union)
FLOPS has 40% on the street (non union)
XO Jet has 23% on the street (non union)
NetJets will have 17% on the street (union)

B19 blames all the industries woes on unions. I think it's pretty clear from the numbers above that he is wrong and is just a union hater.

Ahhh! isn't FLOPS a union shop as well?

 

[skyaddict]

NetJets business model did not suddenly get strained by the pay and work rule improvements, period- those, while not cheap, were small versus the effect of the economic downturn and the devaluation of business jets. NetJets, like many fracs, could have their employees work for free and still have to make major adjustments to cope with the scale of this downturn. And as has been pointed out, there is not the slightest interest in concessions being generated by pilots or management, due to recognition of this fact.

 

[993_Pilot]

Ahhh! isn't FLOPS a union shop as well?

Yes, but without a contract. Otherwise, amaineiac was right on the money, and B19 is Full of $h!t and just trying to push his anti union agenda.

 

[waka]

Here we are. Now that Netjets is going to furlough, the arguments between the Netjets pro union faithful and B-19 have finally come to fruition.

So I ask this, was B-19 right?

Good luck to the Netjet folks who are going to be furloughed. Join the club.

With all due respect, you shouldn't have started this thread in the first place. By doing so, you implied that B19 holds some kind of significant part of the discussions. When, in fact, he is just a mindless union bashing troll that isn't worth the time of day.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Be careful what you ask for...

Using the numbers from airline pilot central:

Shares has 20% on the street (non union)
Flex has 18% on the street (non union)
FLOPS has 40% on the street (non union)
XO Jet has 23% on the street (non union)
NetJets will have 17% on the street (union)

B19 blames all the industries woes on unions. I think it's pretty clear from the numbers above that he is wrong and is just a union hater.

Would somebody break this down into individual numbers and not cover these up in percentages? 17% from the largest frac seems like a heck of a lot of individual pilots.

Oh, and while your at it... include all the voluntary pilots from the torture NJ pilots had to go through last spring during the first attempt - add those to the numbers also. All of the nirvana that NJW and all the NJ pilots have been throwing at me for years seems to have come around.

I've stated that the "Industry Leading Contract" was going to result in "Industry Leading" furloughs.. and I'm quite sure I'm right (again) about that. The bigger the contract, the more that get furloughed.

Anybody want to start taking bets on when the contract gets reopened?

Yeah, that's the exact same contract that everybody told me that would never get touched..

Of course, that's the same contract and union workforce that was also untouchable a year ago, resulting in no furloughs or layoffs.

All you guys told me it could not happen.


Yep, it happened and it's not over yet...Sad really...


Be careful what you ask for....

 

[doh]

Bobby serves a purpose. He solidifies our reasoning. He provides an opportunity to educate both ourselves and others. We need someone who is constantly and obviously wrong so we see more clearly what is right. JMO

 

[BornAgainPagan]

Would somebody break this down into individual numbers and not cover these up in percentages? 17% from the largest frac seems like a heck of a lot of individual pilots.

Oh, and while your at it... include all the voluntary pilots from the torture NJ pilots had to go through last spring during the first attempt - add those to the numbers also. All of the nirvana that NJW and all the NJ pilots have been throwing at me for years seems to have come around.

I've stated that the "Industry Leading Contract" was going to result in "Industry Leading" furloughs.. and I'm quite sure I'm right (again) about that. The bigger the contract, the more that get furloughed.

Anybody want to start taking bets on when the contract gets reopened?

Yeah, that's the exact same contract that everybody told me that would never get touched..

Of course, that's the same contract and union workforce that was also untouchable a year ago, resulting in no furloughs or layoffs.

All you guys told me it could not happen.


Yep, it happened and it's not over yet...Sad really...


Be careful what you ask for....

How incredibly stupid.

The percentages don't say jack about a union's involvement in the number of furloughed pilots. I know that you're disconnected from reality but jeeez, have you even read a newspaper in the last year? I suppose the unions caused the stock market to crash.

Whatever. Your adolescent brain is on a tired old body.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Unions are all the same....

With all due respect, you shouldn't have started this thread in the first place. By doing so, you implied that B19 holds some kind of significant part of the discussions. When, in fact, he is just a mindless union bashing troll that isn't worth the time of day.

The point that I always made was that unions are unions, they all act the same.

I'm not union bashing. All I've ever done is told everybody that unions always act the same... the NJ union didn't turn out any different than any other union did it?

The furloughs and layoffs are still going to occur...

The contract will be next.

This will be the exact same union cycle that always happens... I've said it right along, the "industry leading contract" would undergo a correction and would pull back to reality. The contract has been a nightmare to the union members and the company for a year now. Just like all unions are. Different day, same union actions.

Nothing I've said is new, it's all been based on historical actions.

It's just the fractional industry's turn this time to bring it all back to what it should be.

Yes..... I was right, but it wasn't my predictions. It was however, me simply pointing out that unions are all the same.

 

[doh]

Before I could hit the submit button, Bob chimed in. Read his post. Not only will you see that his reasoning is wrong, you will also get a lesson in how not to spell and punctuate. Bobby, you really need to take that remedial english class.

 

[B19 Flyer]

How incredibly stupid.

The percentages don't say jack about a union's involvement in the number of furloughed pilots. I know that you're disconnected from reality but jeeez, have you even read a newspaper in the last year? I suppose the unions caused the stock market to crash.

Whatever. Your adolescent brain is on a tired old body.

Same thing.... 2001 through 2003. Industry leading contracts, same results. History repeating itself.

 

[BornAgainPagan]

Nothing I've said is new, it's all been based on historical actions.

Give me a break.You cannot base what you say on history unless your perception of history's had any amount of validity. You're too stupid to do such a thing.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Before I could hit the submit button, Bob chimed in. Read his post. Not only will you see that his reasoning is wrong, you will also get a lesson in how not to spell and punctuate. Bobby, you really need to take that remedial english class.

Not Bob, but you know that...

Same exact thing is happening as Part 121 went through.

Industry Leading Contract... economy bites the dust.

Same thing, same results.. go look through those news articles and you will predict the future of the NJ contract...

 

[B19 Flyer]

Too stubborn to admit I was right about history repeating itself, eh?

Give me a break.You cannot base what you say on history unless your perception of history's had any amount of validity. You're too stupid to do such a thing.

It's the exact same thing....

Union gets big industry leading contract, economy bites the dust, union tries to hang on to the big contract...

First furloughs...

Next layoffs...

Then contract... once...

Not enough...

Bankruptcy to force the final changes...


Don't think it can't happen????? Nobody thought the layoffs would ever happen. It's unfolding identical, almost even the same time frame.

Yep, the sooner your union gets back to the bargaining table, the sooner the bloodletting will stop. History has shown that an industry leading contract nearly always pulls the company to the brink.

It won't happen though, and once again... you won't admit that I was right.

 

[gunfyter]

Ahhh! isn't FLOPS a union shop as well?

FLOPS has NO CBA. 19 said the CBA is the problem... Correct me if i am wrong... Did not the furloughs at FLOPS begin BEFORE there was a union?

Regardless ... the facts show whether there is a Union or not, is not a factor in industry furloughs....

 

[amaineiac]

Ahhh! isn't FLOPS a union shop as well?

Sorry for the mistake.

The point that I always made was that unions are unions, they all act the same.

I'm not union bashing. All I've ever done is told everybody that unions always act the same... the NJ union didn't turn out any different than any other union did it?

That is union bashing. That would be like me saying all management sucks. In reality, there are good ones and bad ones. Ones like UAL, Mesa, AMR and a few others that I'm sure you worship. On the other side, there's SWA.

Would somebody break this down into individual numbers and not cover these up in percentages? 17% from the largest frac seems like a heck of a lot of individual pilots.

Cover them with percentages? I spent the extra time breaking them down into percentages just to make them relevant. I bet if I told you my 1 share of BRK.A was up 1% today, you'd probably tell me you did better in the market because your 10 shares of MESA doubled.

Most of those that took the 1 year LOA will be swallowed up with this furlough, so that number is not relevant. If you add those that took the early out, it would put us inline with shares and XO jet.

Anybody want to start taking bets on when the contract gets reopened?

The boss said he isn't looking for any concessions and the contract in it's current form works with their plan. So unless he's not being honest, there is no need to change it. Management would never lie, would the B19? From everything the union has told us so far, DS seems honorable and a straight shooter. He's cleaning up the previous managements mistakes.

 

[BeeDubya]

Just a few facts.

The voluntary measures created some programs that were enjoyed by many NJ pilots, including reduced schedules, paid time off and "early outs." Those who wanted to participate, did. Those who did not want to, did not. No one was forced to do anything.

NJ Management has stated that they intend to operate within the confines of the pilots' Collective Bargaining Agreement and have not indicated the desire to make changes outside of Section 6 Bargaining.

The NJASAP leadership has been preparing the NJ pilots for the possibility of furloughs for more than 12 months. It is the previous management team that consistently said furloughs would not happen at NJ. That message NEVER came from the Union.

While everyone has a right to his opinion and I'm sure some enjoy sharing his opinions from the sidelines (schadenfreude), it would be nice if he would make even the most meager attempt to get the facts before opining. It so adds to one's credibility.

Fraternally,
Brian Ward

 

[skyismyoffice]

The point that I always made was that unions are unions, they all act the same.

Yea and management is management...they all act the same.

Net Jets' furloughs are a result of management making a decision to hire for airplane deliveries that never happened. Management made a decision to try to stay ahead of the game - the game changed and the decision turned out to be a bad one. I don't see how this is the Union's fault??

 

[7777]

With all due respect, you shouldn't have started this thread in the first place. By doing so, you implied that B19 holds some kind of significant part of the discussions. When, in fact, he is just a mindless union bashing troll that isn't worth the time of day.

My friend, first off I don't have a dog in this fight. I am sitting in my hooch in Iraq and wondering out loud. However, I have commented on behalf of both sides of this debate in the NUMEROUS threads between guys/gals who hold opinions like yours and B-19 over the YEARS of reading the threads on this site.

Both sides have made valid points and B-19 most certainly does hold alot of significance in these discussions because he is the single loudest voice contrary to the legions of pro union Netjets folks saying the opposite.

I and others on this site have read the numerous posts on how Netjets is the strongest and will survive without furloughs in the hardest of times. They have share owners that have alot of money, they are owned by Buffett, their management won't do it, ect.. Up until the announcement of the furloughs, it certainly appeared you guys/gals might have been right.

Thus, my question. Now, what if the contract is renegotiated to survive? Is that the final stake in the heart (for lack of a better term) of this debate?

Honesty is what I am seeking here. Outside of the personal attacks on B-19 there were some good points made, but the trend he/she (B-19) has talked about in the past, certainly appears to be happening....no?

Again, best wishes to everyone here that is getting furloughed or has been furloughed. Maybe I will try and stay in Iraq longer.

 

[fischman]

The CBA and NJASAP had nothing to do with the furloughs B19. By the way, you were wrong about another thing. You said that NetJets will furlough by the end of the year (2009). Furloughs won't happen until 2010.

The CBA won't be opened until section 6.

 

[BeeDubya]

Honesty is what I am seeking here. Outside of the personal attacks on B-19 there were some good points made, but the trend he/she (B-19) has talked about in the past, certainly appears to be happening....no?

I think it might be right to say that she was right that furloughs would occur, but I do not think she was right in WHY furloughs occurred. The economy and the prior managment's decisions, not the Union or the contract. She is clearly out of touch with what is going on at NJ and between the company and Union.

 

[woog315]

Would somebody break this down into individual numbers and not cover these up in percentages? 17% from the largest frac seems like a heck of a lot of individual pilots.

Oh, and while your at it... include all the voluntary pilots from the torture NJ pilots had to go through last spring during the first attempt - add those to the numbers also. All of the nirvana that NJW and all the NJ pilots have been throwing at me for years seems to have come around.

I've stated that the "Industry Leading Contract" was going to result in "Industry Leading" furloughs.. and I'm quite sure I'm right (again) about that. The bigger the contract, the more that get furloughed.

This is mind bogglingly stupid. If a company has 10,000 employees and they lay off 750, they aren't doing "worse" than a company that has 1,000 and lays off 500. The 1,000 employee company is quite clearly falling on harder times. Those numbers aren't meant to represent the fractionals specifically, just making the point.

All the people arguing that Netjets wasn't going to be affected by the economy and wouldn't furlough were pretty obviously living in la-la land, but your argument that netjets laying off a larger number of pilots indicates netjets is doing worse is just absurd, because netjets is nearly twice as big as all the other fracs combined, I believe.

 

[imacdog]

Would somebody break this down into individual numbers and not cover these up in percentages? 17% from the largest frac seems like a heck of a lot of individual pilots.

Oh, and while your at it... include all the voluntary pilots from the torture NJ pilots had to go through last spring during the first attempt - add those to the numbers also. All of the nirvana that NJW and all the NJ pilots have been throwing at me for years seems to have come around.

I've stated that the "Industry Leading Contract" was going to result in "Industry Leading" furloughs.. and I'm quite sure I'm right (again) about that. The bigger the contract, the more that get furloughed.

Actually, that's not what you have stated. This is what you have stated:

My version of "bigger" will be pct of flight crews and airplanes vs. any of the others.

Here is a link for that statement:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=1749183#post1749183

Anything else you want to just make up?

 

[waka]

Both sides have made valid points and B-19 most certainly does hold alot of significance in these discussions because he is the single loudest voice contrary to the legions of pro union Netjets folks saying the opposite.

If loudness is the benchmark of significance, then yes. I suppose he does hold significance. (so would Rush Limbaugh) However, his arguments are often....well, stupid. His modus operandi is to only answer selected posts and ignore many, MANY valid questions that would derail his stupid arguments. He has demonstrated this over and over.

I guess that you're entitled to your opinion. However, to most here, he is simply a babbling sociopath.

BTW; Had you followed the entire saga of B19's moronathon, you would see that the opposing voices to him are more than pro union NetJets pilots. There are also pro union (and even some not so pro union) folks from the other fractionals too. Actually, the lion's share of those calling B19 on his BS has been FLOPS pilots.

 

[Fozzy]

Thus, my question. Now, what if the contract is renegotiated to survive? Is that the final stake in the heart (for lack of a better term) of this debate?

What the hell are you talking about? There will be no "renegotiating". The company can not just say, "hey this contract sucks. Lets renegotiate." The only way they could get around the CBA is if they pull the "B19 wet dream scenario"(I coined that phrase first, but you all can use it). NJA would have to go bk and have a judge do the dirty work. It will not happen, but if it did, you would all witness a chit storm the likes you have not seen since the summer of love in 2004. You can take that to the bank.

 

[993_Pilot]

Actually, that's not what you have stated. This is what you have stated:

My version of "bigger" will be pct of flight crews and airplanes vs. any of the others.

Here is a link for that statement:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=1749183#post1749183

Anything else you want to just make up?

You've gotta love the flawless memory of a computer. Another example of B19 trying to twist the facts to make them fit his agenda.