So was B19 right or wrong?

[fischman]

Let's get the facts straight. Look at the turmoil NJ pilots are going through and have been through. Look at the turmoil FLOPS pilots are going through.

You can talk about all the stuff you want.. you and your union brethren have created a lot more hell for your companies than all the others put together.

Oh, and I've said this before.. contracts for management are offered to attract and maintain quality employees.

For that one reason alone, no union will ever be offered a contract. The union will ALWAYS need to resort to the greedy methods of forcing a contract on a company using bully tactics to get what they want because everybody that has ever been involved with a union knows that it's all about the greed and never about the good of the company.

All the crap you mentioned above? It's all trying to fix what the union screwed up. Nothing more... there is no honor in the unions actions above. They are just trying to bail themselves out of something the company shouldn't have been into in the first place.

Your facts are in error. TRUST ME. NJASAP was PROACTIVE in this matter. NOT REACTIVE like management was. This wasn't a bully tactic. We went to NetJets OFFERING help. How is that a bully tactic?

You skirted all my other questions about Avantair. Why is that?

 

[gunfyter]

Avantair is a good plCe to be right now. I am predicting a pilot shortage due to upcoming duty and rest improvements and a 1500 hr Atp requirement for 121 airlines. Also FAA will restrict commuting. Can't jumpseat to work on rest time.



Non-union shops will unionize if managements do not keep up withthe Jones'.

Regionals will have to bump up pay. Next Avantair will follow with raises. Snowball effect will result in pay raise bidding war for pilots industry wide.

19 will voluntarilly take a pay and benefit cut to help company afford to hire pilots they need. You know like when fuel costs go up... Managements always ask employees to take cuts. 19 will take one for the team.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Bwaha bwahahaha bwahahahahahaha. Thanks Gun, I needed a chuckle this morning.

 

[steelersrule74]

19 will voluntarilly take a pay and benefit cut to help company afford to hire pilots they need. You know like when fuel costs go up... Managements always ask employees to take cuts. 19 will take one for the team.

unless those pesky management contracts get in the way. i'm sure though when times are tough B19 and the rest of those 'quality' recruits will not be selfish and will in fact enthusiastically agree to concessions.:beer:

 

[gunfyter]

GSD,

I aim to please....

Look, NJ started Ab-initio in Europe. They were working on it for the US before 9/11 and Osama bin LaidOff ruined things for us,,,,

There is pent up demand! Did people stop flying on Fracs because they love to fly on the airlines? when the economy turns ... shares will be selling like before....

Things change quickly ... you can't time the market ... gotta bet big to win big. I am ALL-IN.

I think NJ is in a good position to cash in when things turn.
Roll those bones.

 

[gutshotdraw]

The Fed will cave on 121 duty and rest regs. Golden Rule: He with the Gold makes the Rules.

While I also believe Netjets is well positioned and led for the future, I also believe the fractional aircraft market has been commoditized much the same way airline seats have been. The consumer is interested in one thing: cost. Brand loyalty is a secondary concern. The entry into the marketplace by several lower cost rivals can only bring downward pressure on pricing and, ultimately, costs (read: labor).

Look no further than our own travel department. They will put us on a crap airline to save $50 a ticket rather than an identical itinerary on our preferred carrier. I believe in competition and creative destruction is the necessary result of capitalism. It's just that I have tempered my expectations for the future and the "pricing power" of aviation labor.

That is not to say I believe we should sell ourselves short or agree to concessions. On the contrary. We should continue to work to prove our legitimate economic value to our employers and our customers. The notion of some "pilot shortage" to drive up demand for our services is, I believe, wishful thinking.

 

[gunfyter]

Maybe. Take a look at today's WSJ. Money and Investing section.

Article. Shh! Wall Street is Spending again. Even mention Flight Options.

Article. The U S economy's Trillion dollar question. Seems there are trillions of dollars sidelined and ready to be spent. As soon as confidence returns.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Your facts are in error. TRUST ME. NJASAP was PROACTIVE in this matter. NOT REACTIVE like management was. This wasn't a bully tactic. We went to NetJets OFFERING help. How is that a bully tactic?

You skirted all my other questions about Avantair. Why is that?

No... big contract meant big cost and the union is trying to get out of what they got themselves into.

Your "proactive" actions are akin to kicking somebody in the shins and then asking him if he's OK and helping him up. You still caused the pain and your actions would have never happened if you hadn't kicked him in the shins.

Oh, I did answer your question and skirted nothing. I stated that I also don't post on other threads that don't interest me. That thread doesn't interest me. I wasn't avoiding it.

 

[B19 Flyer]

19 will voluntarilly take a pay and benefit cut to help company afford to hire pilots they need. You know like when fuel costs go up... Managements always ask employees to take cuts. 19 will take one for the team.

I've taken plenty of pay cuts over the years before the union. That's because management always does the right thing before unions.

 

[gunfyter]

.. That's because management always does the right thing before unions.

Braaahhahha hahahaha lol uhgnnn my sides are hurting... oh... that was a good one.

Oh man ... you owe me a new computer keyboard and a cup of coffee....

 

[dime line]

I've taken plenty of pay cuts over the years before the union. That's because management always does the right thing before unions.

Yea I'd like to see one such cut! Your humor is killing us, look at Gun, he dropped his coffee cup on his computer.

 

[steelersrule74]

I've taken plenty of pay cuts over the years before the union. That's because management always does the right thing before unions.

that's interesting to me. did you take your paycut out of goodwill or because there would be hell to pay from organized pilots who thought the pain should be shared? again, as I look at avantair which is non-union it seems that not all executives share your 'evolved' sense of righteousness. take their COO for example.

I think everyone can agree the last 2 years have been one of the worst economic meltdowns in our lifetimes. when unemployment is 10%, pilots are being furloughed left and right i think it's not unreasonable to at least freeze the compensation of executives. looks like some though aren't so interested when it comes to their compensation.

in 2007 - Avantair COO $99,375.00
in 2008 - $250,407.00
in 2009 - $324,784.00

here are the links for this publicly traded company.
http://sec.edgar-online.com/avantair-inc/10-k-annual-report/2008/09/24/Section24.aspx

http://quote.morningstar.com/inside...px?t=AAIR&P=Kevin-Beitzel&PersonId=PS0000215I

i must be missing something. i find it surprising an executive would willingly allow his salary to be almost quadrupled during this difficult times. it seems so slimy.

 

[SilverSurfer]

B19 was a moron from day 1

 

[HazMat]

B19 is not the COO at Avantair. There is no way. Just to keep things real everyone still has their job here thats something we can all agree on. Keep in mind that bonuses are typically paid in stock and the stock has almost doubled in the last couple of months. We could easily point to a 10 year captain salary at Netjets and say I think its pretty slimy that they keep taking raises in this economy. Just a silly argument altogether

 

[steelersrule74]

B19 is not the COO at Avantair. There is no way. Just to keep things real everyone still has their job here thats something we can all agree on. Keep in mind that bonuses are typically paid in stock and the stock has almost doubled in the last couple of months. We could easily point to a 10 year captain salary at Netjets and say I think its pretty slimy that they keep taking raises in this economy. Just a silly argument altogether

that's not entirely accurate. our contract has built in ebbs and flows that allows it react to economic environments. as soon as the economy went south every netjets pilots experienced between 15-20% pay reduction. True, base pay still enjoys a yearly longevity bonus but W2 earnings will be less this year.

as for who B19 is. it doesn't matter to me at all. If however B19 WAS the COO at avantair would that matter to you? would it matter to the other pilots that work there? I think it's pretty clear the opinion he holds of pilots, the work they do and their value. He has made numerous claims he's an executive. if he were at avantair I think most who work there and post here would find that information relevant.

have no fear though, he makes no comments about avantair in any way. clearly that company doesn't interest him at all.

 

[HazMat]

Are you saying if we look at what's published about netjet pilot pay it is not accurate today? We should be deducting 20 percent

 

[steelersrule74]

Are you saying if we look at what's published about netjet pilot pay it is not accurate today? We should be deducting 20 percent

what i'm saying is the compensation for netjets pilots was negotiated such that a significant portion of it was tied to things such as holiday pay, overtime, extended days of work, undertime on day 1 etc. we could have eliminated all those opportunities and simply had a higher base wage but that would have a detrimental effect on the company in times such as this. also, this is different from voluntary overtime or extra days of work. those opportunities exist (or did in the past) as at other carriers but the items above are non-voluntary and simply part of the daily business. it's fair to say wages at netjets have been historically 15-20% greater than base wages because of these non-voluntary items. the company and the union planned on this and was aware of the design. it is the 'shock absorber' if you will in our CBA for an economic downturn.

so to your question above, I would say 2009 is the first year the published pay rates at netjets ARE accurate. every year previous you would have had to add 15-20% to get a true picture of compensation.

 

[gunfyter]

I have made about 25 k less this year. Than 2008.

 

[steelersrule74]

I have made about 25 k less this year. Than 2008.

you sir are doing the right thing. B19 would be proud.......:beer:

 

[fischman]

No... big contract meant big cost and the union is trying to get out of what they got themselves into.

Your "proactive" actions are akin to kicking somebody in the shins and then asking him if he's OK and helping him up. You still caused the pain and your actions would have never happened if you hadn't kicked him in the shins.

Oh, I did answer your question and skirted nothing. I stated that I also don't post on other threads that don't interest me. That thread doesn't interest me. I wasn't avoiding it.

Our CBA is a drop of water in the ocean compared to the 100+ extra airframes our wizard management team overbought.

So NJASAP does EXACTLY what you say unions never do, and you say we are kicking NetJets in the shins??? How does that work??? Are you out of your mind??? Seriously, are you not sane? Are you in an institution?

Oh, and you didn't answer a single question, and I posted them in this thread. You are skirting. I'll repost them and highlight them in bold for you. I anything I can do to help...

Yes. Let's talk about how NetJets wanted to try to save job and how NJASAP kept them from doing just that.

B19, PLEASE don't let facts get in the way. Nevermind how NJASAP came to NetJets MONTHS before the $h!t hit the fan telling them about our upcoming financial troubles. Nevermind the fact that NJASAP has been collecting waste reports from our members to try to help the company eliminate it (which has fallen on deaf ears for YEARS). Nevermind the fact that NJASAP went to the company with Voluntary Measures designed to help save hundreds of jobs (which the company eventually no longer believed in and canceled). Again, I'd HATE for you to have to come out of your bubble and see the REAL WORLD. What else can NJASAP do to convince you that we are not here to destroy the company? How have we created chaos? We have FIXED chaos due to poor management.

Speaking of REAL WORLD, Avantair is seeing some nice growth as people are looking for a cheaper way to enjoy fractional ownership. What are you planning for Avantair when the fractional market swings the way away from turboprops and wants the size and speed a jet can afford? When the pilots become upset because you are going to have to lay them off are you going to help save their jobs? Are you going to quit if a union ever comes on property? Or will you threaten all who desire representation and a contract (which I'm sure you enjoy having)? Why is management allowed to have contracts and pilots aren't?