So was B19 right or wrong?

[BeenThereDoneIt]

Quite the generalization there. It calls into question your comprehension of other's writings. Many of us work without contracts, are happy that way, and have expressed the fact on "these boards." What else do you make up?

"Many?" Perhaps the young and naive........but I seen very few who are OK without a contract.

 

[fischman]

Just checked my email, pager, and on crewops. Nothing about a second round. B19 wasn't right about anything. If you can't see that, you're blind.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Fisch,

The meeting is the 19th (ironic, isn't it?). Reserve judgment on this particular issue until then. But I agree with you that the knucklehead is wrong about a lot of things.

 

[gunfyter]

Fisch,

The meeting is the 19th (ironic, isn't it?). Reserve judgment on this particular issue until then. But I agree with you that the knucklehead is wrong about a lot of things.

WTC vs OKC?

 

[B19 Flyer]

Just checked my email, pager, and on crewops. Nothing about a second round. B19 wasn't right about anything. If you can't see that, you're blind.

fischman, you and your union cronies for years said there wouldn't be a first round of layoffs at NJ. Then, when all the pilot golden parachutes were handed out, you and your gang patted yourselves on the back while all those pilots were forced to voluntarily give up their jobs, and you didn't call that a layoff. Then came the first real layoff and you still wouldn't admit the contract was failing.

Now.... in order for history to repeat itself, there will be at least one more layoff, and then the contract will be opened. That's how it always seems to work.

Oh, and one thing that I've always said about you that's never been false... ever... is that you are a stooge...

 

[B19 Flyer]

"Many?" Perhaps the young and naive........but I seen very few who are OK without a contract.

Very few what, pilots? Do you forget how many air carrier workers are out there that aren't unionized? The bad part is, that those are the people that get affected the most when unions play their games and they are nothing more than innocent bystanders that become collateral damage when a union makes life miserable for all.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Sorry to read about the next round of layoffs fellas. That sucks big time and my sincere condolances to those it has affected.

I also believe B-19 was right. Fire away!

Hopefully this debate can be put to rest now.

These are union folks... they only believe what their union tells them.

Just like all those years they told us that the rich clientele was too rich to allow NJ to fail and the economy wouldn't affect them.

How big was that NJ loss last year as their clients were to rich to fail? And I guess it's important to define failure. I define it as the union fracs are still pulling back while the non-union fracs are still chugging along and even beginning to hire.

Thanx for your support!

 

[B19 Flyer]

Quite the generalization there. It calls into question your comprehension of other's writings. Many of us work without contracts, are happy that way, and have expressed the fact on "these boards." What else do you make up?

Those of you that work without contracts understand exactly what I'm saying, that the contract isn't the magic fix all that the unions promise it will be. The union has brainwashed all these people into thinking that paying dues is going to protect them and make the company instantly a better place to work. That isn't the case. In most cases, there was nothing wrong to begin with until the union came in promising utopia.

 

[fischman]

fischman, you and your union cronies for years said there wouldn't be a first round of layoffs at NJ. Then, when all the pilot golden parachutes were handed out, you and your gang patted yourselves on the back while all those pilots were forced to voluntarily give up their jobs, and you didn't call that a layoff. Then came the first real layoff and you still wouldn't admit the contract was failing.

Now.... in order for history to repeat itself, there will be at least one more layoff, and then the contract will be opened. That's how it always seems to work.

Oh, and one thing that I've always said about you that's never been false... ever... is that you are a stooge...

That is not what I said. This is aviation, and the only absolute is uncertainty. What I did say was that NetJets would not furlough in '09, which they didn't and I proved you WRONG.

I also proved you wrong over and over again when you stated that this "turmoil" to use your word, was created by NJASAP when in fact it was the company under out prior leadership which created this situation. NJASAP PROACTIVELY worked with the company to minimize the negative effects on NetJets families (at which time we as a Union again proved you WRONG as you ALWAYS cry about how reactionary unions are) which led to voluntary measures.

I also proved you wrong in that the company has not 1) come asking for concessions, 2) benefits being reduced, 3) CBA concessions being approved by the Union. Hasn't happened.

You see, this is how to PROVE someone wrong. I'd like to see you PROVE ANYTHING I have typed wrong. Hard, quantifiable, facts please. You CAN'T do it. Why? NJASAP does not match the mold. We are not the UAW, ALPA, or the Teamsters. I'd LOVE to see you try to PROVE ME WRONG.

"Stooge"? Name calling is the last resort of a weak mind. IS that why you can't prove anything?

 

[fischman]

Those of you that work without contracts understand exactly what I'm saying, that the contract isn't the magic fix all that the unions promise it will be. The union has brainwashed all these people into thinking that paying dues is going to protect them and make the company instantly a better place to work. That isn't the case. In most cases, there was nothing wrong to begin with until the union came in promising utopia.

Do YOU work without a contract?:erm:

 

[wacoflyr]

Wow, I've had my post taken out of context by TWO non-fractional types! I feel privileged, somehow..... Maybe I just feel misquoted. Okay, I'm just misunderstood. Hey what the hell, can't you two read!?!?!

 

[fischman]

Wow, I've had my post taken out of context by TWO non-fractional types! I feel privileged, somehow..... Maybe I just feel misquoted. Okay, I'm just misunderstood. Hey what the hell, can't you two read!?!?!

Sorry, I didn't read your post.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Do YOU work without a contract?:erm:

I do not have a contract. How many times are you going to ask me that question?

 

[B19 Flyer]

That is not what I said. This is aviation, and the only absolute is uncertainty. What I did say was that NetJets would not furlough in '09, which they didn't and I proved you WRONG.

I also proved you wrong over and over again when you stated that this "turmoil" to use your word, was created by NJASAP when in fact it was the company under out prior leadership which created this situation. NJASAP PROACTIVELY worked with the company to minimize the negative effects on NetJets families (at which time we as a Union again proved you WRONG as you ALWAYS cry about how reactionary unions are) which led to voluntary measures.

I also proved you wrong in that the company has not 1) come asking for concessions, 2) benefits being reduced, 3) CBA concessions being approved by the Union. Hasn't happened.

You see, this is how to PROVE someone wrong. I'd like to see you PROVE ANYTHING I have typed wrong. Hard, quantifiable, facts please. You CAN'T do it. Why? NJASAP does not match the mold. We are not the UAW, ALPA, or the Teamsters. I'd LOVE to see you try to PROVE ME WRONG.

"Stooge"? Name calling is the last resort of a weak mind. IS that why you can't prove anything?

fischman,

Every union pilot on this board has stated for YEARS that NJ would never furlough. That happened didn't it? You are one of those pilots. The semantics of the exact date is not relevent. The contract did not protect their jobs, and it never will yet there is an implied protection that a union contract brings.

As far as I'm concerned, the voluntary reductions were akin to a furlough. That is turmoil within the family unit. Just because you escaped it doesn't mean those families didn't go through hell. They did. I've been there, and making those decisions is actually harder that a clean layoff where the decision is made for you.

The top pilots were protected, the bottom were cut loose. You don't care about the bottom third of the seniorty list. It's the union way.

There are generally two furloughs before the contract gets backed into a corner and gets opened up. In effect, that's already happened, one voluntary, one not.

Say what you want, your union claimed "PROACTIVE" but instead really used smoke and mirrors to hide the inevitable and give the appearance they were doing the best they could. You believed it so in essence you got suckered by it.

Opening the contract would have done the same thing and shown best efforts and good faith the pilots the company and the owners.. didn't happen.

As far as my humor about you being a stooge? It was a play of your avatar which I personally thought was funny and clever. You on the other hand didn't. Sorry you didn't catch the humor.

That contract has caused great harm at NJ. Had it not been so radical and been more middle of the road many jobs would have been saved. There would not have been as many pilots hired to adjust to the work rules and the high pilot to plane ratio. Those pilots would have never been forced to make career decisions.

Split your hairs if you want... union fracs are still laying off and non union are hiring.... put that in your pipe and smoke it.

The mold? Exactly as history states. And when that contract gets opened, just like the furloughs that never were supposed to happen, I'll accept your humble apology.


And with that.. I just handed your butt to you.

 

[brokeflyer]

I think avantair needs a union. They need to spread that wealth over to the pilots who carry that company.