SLI. What's fair and equitable.

[dime line]

And all of the career expectations that your talking about, be careful what you wish for, your career expectations didnt include G-anything, Legacy-anything Cessna-anything and NXT-anything, the only real expectation for you is the Global , Lear and now that the companys are 1, the Aerion. Please keep in mind i'm not advocating anybody getting a raw deal, we have already had a raw deal in the past and it scuks, I don't care to see you guys go thru what the pilots of RTA and FLOPS had to go thru.

 

[EngineThunder]

He had to get special help to get through his Lear 45 training. Might take him years to pass any other bombardier type ride.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Phil went to Flex knowing he will be an First Officer. Little did he realize he wasn't captain material until he started training without someone holding his hand. His expectations can no longer include a 350 PIC based in Orlando. If Uncle didn't make sure he had special help, Phil wouldn't be qualified to hold any First Officer slot.

 

[TexasChallenger]

Phil went to Flex knowing he will be an First Officer. Little did he realize he wasn't captain material until he started training without someone holding his hand. His expectations can no longer include a 350 PIC based in Orlando. If Uncle didn't make sure he had special help, Phil wouldn't be qualified to hold any First Officer slot.

Bingo!

 

[greygoose]

It's already been made clear percentage won't be fair and equitable. Sr Options I pic's have a few years over Flex, by what 5 years(?). Jr FO's at options have about maybe 5 yrs(?) over Flex FO's with less than a year. That's just longevity not including furlough time, on both sides.
My personal thought is 1 to 1 until you can get a doh to match. Yes there will be upgrades and there will be downgrades. I'm sure someone will find a flaw with this.
i hear career expectations has been going around. No one but myself knows what my career expectations are. Options wouldn't be in the position we are in if it wasn't for Sheringa breaking it up. While also considering Flex MAY no longer be in existence today if Kenn never bought them from Bombardier.

 

[el raton]

It's already been made clear percentage won't be fair and equitable. Sr Options I pic's have a few years over Flex, by what 5 years(?). Jr FO's at options have about maybe 5 yrs(?) over Flex FO's with less than a year. That's just longevity not including furlough time, on both sides.
My personal thought is 1 to 1 until you can get a doh to match. Yes there will be upgrades and there will be downgrades. I'm sure someone will find a flaw with this.
i hear career expectations has been going around. No one but myself knows what my career expectations are. Options wouldn't be in the position we are in if it wasn't for Sheringa breaking it up. While also considering Flex MAY no longer be in existence today if Kenn never bought them from Bombardier.

What's your point? There wouldn't be any upgrades much less the opportunity for those who were furloughed at Options to return if it weren't for Flex.

You're talking about downgrading 100+ captains and screwing 100 first officers at Flex by stapling them to the bottom because you feel you're entitled to our seats? DOH is only "fair" for Options... no, "fair" is the wrong term, it's more like an "opportunity" for Options pilots to advance at the expense of Flexjet pilots.


"Fair" would be for both pilot groups to look at what position they were in before the companies merged. Flexjet was profitable. There was talk and evidence of growth in the company well before the merger. We were getting new airplanes and Pilots were upgrading (slowly), another words there was growth and opportunity. You staple us like you want and opportunity is gone. Likewise if there was growth and opportunity at Options then you shouldn't lose that either. Percentage shares the opportunity fairly with both groups and everyone stays exactly where they were before the merge.

it's hard to remain civil because 8 to 10 year captains at Flexjet are in danger of losing their seats and FOs will never have a chance to upgrade. Those in favor of DOH are nothing but opportunist who are willing to staple their so-called fellow pilots.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Don't let them get to you el. KR has told us many times in the past that we all had opportunities for advancement either thru expansion or acquisition. Remember the CitationAir deal? Take the planes and lay off their pilots? We didn't fall for it then, and we aren't falling for it now.

 

[TexasChallenger]

What's your point? There wouldn't be any upgrades much less the opportunity for those who were furloughed at Options to return if it weren't for Flex.

You're talking about downgrading 100+ captains and screwing 100 first officers at Flex by stapling them to the bottom because you feel you're entitled to our seats? DOH is only "fair" for Options... no, "fair" is the wrong term, it's more like an "opportunity" for Options pilots to advance at the expense of Flexjet pilots.


"Fair" would be for both pilot groups to look at what position they were in before the companies merged. Flexjet was profitable. There was talk and evidence of growth in the company well before the merger. We were getting new airplanes and Pilots were upgrading (slowly), another words there was growth and opportunity. You staple us like you want and opportunity is gone. Likewise if there was growth and opportunity at Options then you shouldn't lose that either. Percentage shares the opportunity fairly with both groups and everyone stays exactly where they were before the merge.

it's hard to remain civil because 8 to 10 year captains at Flexjet are in danger of losing their seats and FOs will never have a chance to upgrade. Those in favor of DOH are nothing but opportunist who are willing to staple their so-called fellow pilots.

Captain positions are protected by law and it's also reiterated in the Flight Options contract: "...there shall be no system flush."

 

[el raton]

Captain positions are protected by law and it's also reiterated in the Flight Options contract: "...there shall be no system flush."

For how long? What happens when they do away with the Lear fleet? When these pilots are displaced they will go to the airplanes their seniority holds. No System flush is only beneficial in a growing fleet.

 

[TexasChallenger]

Downsizing, company financial struggles, etc, arent part of our integration process. The law states that there will be no system flush and that your seat is protected unless the Company can prove a financial distress or if there is downsizing taking place. Neither is happening under DAC. Quite the opposite.

 

[el raton]

Downsizing, company financial struggles, etc, arent part of our integration process. The law states that there will be no system flush and that your seat is protected unless the Company can prove a financial distress or if there is downsizing taking place. Neither is happening under DAC. Quite the opposite.

The Lear fleet is shrinking. So, as the fleet decreases pilots will have to be displaced. If that's the case, which aircraft will a Lear captain hired in 05-06 go? Remember, youre advocating DOH which will stick 300+ pilots ahead of them. Do they move to captain in the challenger? No, we will be stuck in the right seat of whatever. If we are in the bottom 200 at Flex we are going to get screwed, while other over a period of time, will unfairly take our seats. So, I guess the good news is, I have a little time to prepare.


The last year at Flex has opened my eyes and revealed the character of those I work with. The top tear of the of our seniority list has always screwed those of us at the bottom for their own selfish gain. I am part of the bottom of the seniority list. I carry the load so you can get a 12-14 day line, Texaschallenger. Thanks for helping the Options side screw us.

Everyone who will be stapled by DOH needs to make their voice heard. Percentage is the only fair solution.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

el, they have been screwing me for x amount of years for their own selfish gain.

 

[luckydog]

The ink didn't even have a chance to dry on the "We Win" page and the DoH dorks come out of the shadows. You guys are Red Label material for sure.

It's the simplest thing to merge these two lists: zipper the damn thing and move on. If you're at the bottom of either list, you're still at the bottom. Using this shotgun wedding as a lottery win isn't fair or equitable to any one. Fence agreements will give all to junior guys opportunity to upgrade in order. Unfenced aircraft will go in seniority order regardless of which company you belonged. The pain of aircraft disposal will be shared.

Is it fair that a 15 year options guy is a FO while 10 year Flex guys are captains, absolutely it is; does it suck, absolutely.

This is a brand new start for both groups don't F it up in the first 5 minutes.

 

[Pervis]

There is no point pissing on each other. The arbitrator will have the final word since the union and the company will unlikely come to an agreement. Some will be happy, and some will be unhappy. Mergers are funny in that respect.

 

[doh]

Management does not get a say in merging our list.

 

[J3guy]

i would favor percentage with career expectations heavily factored. I don't want to lose my captain seat when the lear goes away only to be forced into anything that options flies, probably right seat too. Their entire fleet has zero appeal to me. We all know why the Lear fleet is rumoured to go away. Six seat plane, reduced range at a premium cost. I didn't screw that one up and don't want to be negatively impacted by that. Flexjet has been growing and was, if not still profitable. Anything less and Flex is going to lose a lot of hardworking people with great customer service skills to the 121 world. IMO
Like its been said many times, arbitration will settle this, not us.

 

[TexasChallenger]

The ink didn't even have a chance to dry on the "We Win" page and the DoH dorks come out of the shadows. You guys are Red Label material for sure.

It's the simplest thing to merge these two lists: zipper the damn thing and move on. If you're at the bottom of either list, you're still at the bottom. Using this shotgun wedding as a lottery win isn't fair or equitable to any one. Fence agreements will give all to junior guys opportunity to upgrade in order. Unfenced aircraft will go in seniority order regardless of which company you belonged. The pain of aircraft disposal will be shared.

Is it fair that a 15 year options guy is a FO while 10 year Flex guys are captains, absolutely it is; does it suck, absolutely.

This is a brand new start for both groups don't F it up in the first 5 minutes.

A zipper method, or one for one, only works if both lists are identical in size.

There is no point pissing on each other. The arbitrator will have the final word since the union and the company will unlikely come to an agreement. Some will be happy, and some will be unhappy. Mergers are funny in that respect.

From the FLOPs contract; "...the Company SHALL accept..." DOH is correct, the company doesn't have any say in seniority list integration.

 

[shanes123]

J3GUY. Anything less and Flex is going to lose a lot of hardworking people with great customer service skills to the 121 world. IMO

DONT LET THE COCKPIT DOOR HIT YA IN THE A....YOU SUPER PILOTS Are replaceable believe it or not..DAC won't crumble without you

I Don't know where these FLEX guys have gotten this opinion of themselves that their so much better. 300 of them vote no = STUPID in my book and the few I have met on the road have backed up that equation. Just cause your mother told you your handsome doesn't mean you are.

 

[T-1GUY]

Welcome to the party pal...

 

[dime line]

Welcome to the party pal...

We have already been drunk at this party