SLI. What's fair and equitable.

[GlorifiedCabbie]

"All of the flops pilots will have the same dues responsibilities. All of the Rif pilots (friends of slinghoff's or FOS's) that had their dues refunded and then given a responsibility date far later at their reinstatement instead of the contract date like all of the other flops pilots will not be considered a MIG untill they are paid up in full from day one like everybody else. The Flex pilots have their responsibility date of 90 days from the Dec 15 vote. No side deals, no FOS's or FOK's side deals will be permitted or tolerated."

I see you have nothing of substance to contribute to unifying the pilots group. Now you are going after the 70 RIF'd pilots. Although I was not one of them, I respect their sacrifice. You , on the other hand... still don't have much to offer.

 

[1folinepilot]

"

I see you have nothing of substance to contribute to unifying the pilots group. Now you are going after the 70 RIF'd pilots. Although I was not one of them, I respect their sacrifice. You , on the other hand... still don't have much to offer.

Their sacrafice? The majority of them got canned for disrupting operations, purposly disservicing owners, slandering the company and not doing their jobs. Their actions cost many to be laid off by owners leaving the company , and when they were reinstated they were made whole with all of their back pay and benefits while the rest of us were forced to pick up their slack and do extra work.

since you are one of the people that does not want to recognize the furlough time of the flops pilots then you should not allow the Rif time of the 70 to be recognized either as the furlough pilots sacraficed a far greater amount and were never made whole financially or given a special "FOS dues responsibility date" for their sacrafice.

You are the one who is dividing the pilot group with your back stab plan. A straight date of hire and an equal dues respinsibility date for each pilot group is the only fair and equitable way to merge the lists and move forward from the mess we have now.

 

[Imissmypilot]

So everybody knows it's Phil and yet, depending on the forum, he advocates different methods. You what kind of person does that? A pot stirrer.

So ask yourself, what does Phil have to gain from stirring the pot? Or more correctly what does Phil think he has to gain from stirring the pot?

You answer that question and you'll see he is someone who simply should not be listened to period, even if he's saying what you want to hear. Actually, especially if its what he wants you to hear. That's his game plan and he will use it to divide this pilot group and keep his usefulness to Farquaad for a bit longer.

Club ORD, remember this is the same guy who has been secretly bragging he has been promised a high management position if he can prove his usefulness. I believe he actually said he was promised Rick's job but I see that as somewhat unlikely even in the most insane of circumstances. Rick's demise is all but guaranteed now that he's been shut out of Club CGF. Phil is merely lining up his ducks. You see, it doesn't matter what seniority number he uses if he ascends to the ultimate FoK plan. That's the only reason he's suggesting it - divide and ride the dissension all the way to the top.

The very definition of fair and equitable is for you to come out in the new seniority list roughly where you were on the old one. Your career expectations have to be honored in this new company just the same as they were in the old one. That means percentage will have to play a role. Whatever percentage tier you belonged to on the old list should be the same percentage tier you end up in, give or take a few numbers or else it is not fair and equitable.

The guys with the most to lose in this situation is the middle Flex guys - those hired from about 2003 - 2008. DOH moves these mid tier people essentially back FO positions (although there is no flush so they are seat and pay protected) but what happens if the 45 gets phased out? No way that is fair and equitable in anyone's book.

By the way, don't underestimate the power of being able to define new SLI rules in the contract for any new acquisitions. Don't let Phil use scare tactics about a future merge to determine how we deal with the present one. Still, even then I would say career expectations must be honored if it is going to pass the fair and equitable test. I know it sucks to be a 12 year FO but that was going to continue to happen to you whether or not DAC ever purchased Flexjet.

SLI is not a new lottery ticket to be used to reward bottom of the list Options guys with a new found top of the list status. But Phil wants to plant the seed and stir the pot. It's a good strategy since the Options guys are bitter regarding their stagnation and furloughs. But it's not right - don't let him win by allowing him to stir the pot with this DOH nonsense.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

IMMP, This guy is suffering from Kool-Aid poisoning. There are so many lies in his post, I won't even respond to him. If he wants to label me a back stabber, I have to change his name to 1f'duplinepilot.

 

[1folinepilot]

IMMP, This guy is suffering from Kool-Aid poisoning. There are so many lies in his post, I won't even respond to him. If he wants to label me a back stabber, I have to change his name to 1f'duplinepilot.

You have no response because you know that i'm right and you have no argument otherwise

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Sorry but I'm not a psychiatrist and I cannot cure you of your myopia.

 

[Imissmypilot]

You have no response because you know that i'm right and you have no argument otherwise

Right Phil and that's why you refuse to respond to any post that points out what a pot stirring malcontent you are.

Career expectations of each pilot MUST be addressed as part of the fair and equitable standard. Yes, even with future acquisitions. If you have an issue with future acquisitions, deal with it in the contract but don't fear monger it now.

If you're a 10 year Options First Officer, it sucks but it is what it is. The fact remains if there had never been a merger you still would be stuck at he bottom of your seniority list.

How is some SLI lottery ticket created by a DOH SLI that rushes you to the top above Flexjet captains who had the career expectation of remaining a captain fair? It's not. Therefore it can't happen.

DOH is your ruse to stir the pot. And it will work (if people let it) especially among the Options group who are sick and tired of 10 plus years of stagnation. The problem is the concept of the ruse working makes you gleeful and points out what a true POS you are.

I have much sympathy for the Options guys. What they have been through under Ricci rule is truly the only reason I ever needed to support unionization. But I'm also not going to let my career get tossed in the toilet as a result of some perceived SLI righting of the wrongs. The righting of the wrongs must be addressed in negotiations with a new CBA, not at the SLI table. Fact is the CBA will raise the standard for the Options pilots and that is the way it should be.

One SHOULD remain in their tier (divided by whatever percentage blocks the committee determines) or else it does not meet reasonable career expectations and therefore is not fair and equitable. It's not my preference, it is just plainly what should happen now and with any future acquisition.

However, for you personally, you tossed your career expectations aside when you transferred and went to the bottom of the Flex list. In SLI that is where you (and any other transfer) should remain, unless you had your request to return to Options already recorded.

You refuse to answer because you know this is the fact and you can't use it to stir the pot.

CAREER EXPECTATIONS HAVE TO BE ADDRESSED AS PART OF SLI!

CAREER EXPECTATIONS HAVE TO BE ADDRESSED AS PART OF SLI!

CAREER EXPECTATIONS HAVE TO BE ADDRESSED AS PART OF SLI!

or else it is not fair and equitable! Your DOH ruse does not address career expectations.

 

[doh]

From the UA/CAL arbitration decision:

George Nicolau's four basic verities of ISL arbitration are as apt and vital today as they were nearly a quarter of a century ago: each case turns on its own facts; the objective is to make the integration fair and equitable; the proposals advanced by those in contest rarely meet that standard; and the end result, no matter how crafted, never commands universal acceptance.

Career expectations and longevity will definitely both be considered in this SLI. All y'all are getting waaaaaay ahead of yourselves. The committees haven't even met yet. You should send your opinion to your respective committee members! That is really the place for your input!

 

[dime line]

Their sacrafice? The majority of them got canned for disrupting operations, purposly disservicing owners, slandering the company and not doing their jobs. Their actions cost many to be laid off by owners leaving the company , and when they were reinstated they were made whole with all of their back pay and benefits while the rest of us were forced to pick up their slack and do extra work.

since you are one of the people that does not want to recognize the furlough time of the flops pilots then you should not allow the Rif time of the 70 to be recognized either as the furlough pilots sacraficed a far greater amount and were never made whole financially or given a special "FOS dues responsibility date" for their sacrafice.

You are the one who is dividing the pilot group with your back stab plan. A straight date of hire and an equal dues respinsibility date for each pilot group is the only fair and equitable way to merge the lists and move forward from the mess we have now.

Wow talk about f...k your buddy, I hope that I never fly with this guy.

 

[dime line]

SLI is not a new lottery ticket to be used to reward bottom of the list Options guys with a new found top of the list status. But Phil wants to plant the seed and stir the pot.

It's a good strategy since the Options guys are bitter regarding their stagnation and furloughs

. But it's not right - don't let him win by allowing him to stir the pot with this DOH nonsense.

I don't think this is a realistic statement, we are seasoned to the ricci SLI from 12 years ago, we don't want anybody to get screwed (except maybe the 80 over at Flex). Who is bitter, its life.

 

[dime line]

And all of the career expectations that your talking about, be careful what you wish for, your career expectations didnt include G-anything, Legacy-anything Cessna-anything and NXT-anything, the only real expectation for you is the Global , Lear and now that the companys are 1, the Aerion. Please keep in mind i'm not advocating anybody getting a raw deal, we have already had a raw deal in the past and it scuks, I don't care to see you guys go thru what the pilots of RTA and FLOPS had to go thru.

 

[EngineThunder]

He had to get special help to get through his Lear 45 training. Might take him years to pass any other bombardier type ride.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Phil went to Flex knowing he will be an First Officer. Little did he realize he wasn't captain material until he started training without someone holding his hand. His expectations can no longer include a 350 PIC based in Orlando. If Uncle didn't make sure he had special help, Phil wouldn't be qualified to hold any First Officer slot.

 

[TexasChallenger]

Phil went to Flex knowing he will be an First Officer. Little did he realize he wasn't captain material until he started training without someone holding his hand. His expectations can no longer include a 350 PIC based in Orlando. If Uncle didn't make sure he had special help, Phil wouldn't be qualified to hold any First Officer slot.

Bingo!

 

[greygoose]

It's already been made clear percentage won't be fair and equitable. Sr Options I pic's have a few years over Flex, by what 5 years(?). Jr FO's at options have about maybe 5 yrs(?) over Flex FO's with less than a year. That's just longevity not including furlough time, on both sides.
My personal thought is 1 to 1 until you can get a doh to match. Yes there will be upgrades and there will be downgrades. I'm sure someone will find a flaw with this.
i hear career expectations has been going around. No one but myself knows what my career expectations are. Options wouldn't be in the position we are in if it wasn't for Sheringa breaking it up. While also considering Flex MAY no longer be in existence today if Kenn never bought them from Bombardier.

 

[el raton]

It's already been made clear percentage won't be fair and equitable. Sr Options I pic's have a few years over Flex, by what 5 years(?). Jr FO's at options have about maybe 5 yrs(?) over Flex FO's with less than a year. That's just longevity not including furlough time, on both sides.
My personal thought is 1 to 1 until you can get a doh to match. Yes there will be upgrades and there will be downgrades. I'm sure someone will find a flaw with this.
i hear career expectations has been going around. No one but myself knows what my career expectations are. Options wouldn't be in the position we are in if it wasn't for Sheringa breaking it up. While also considering Flex MAY no longer be in existence today if Kenn never bought them from Bombardier.

What's your point? There wouldn't be any upgrades much less the opportunity for those who were furloughed at Options to return if it weren't for Flex.

You're talking about downgrading 100+ captains and screwing 100 first officers at Flex by stapling them to the bottom because you feel you're entitled to our seats? DOH is only "fair" for Options... no, "fair" is the wrong term, it's more like an "opportunity" for Options pilots to advance at the expense of Flexjet pilots.


"Fair" would be for both pilot groups to look at what position they were in before the companies merged. Flexjet was profitable. There was talk and evidence of growth in the company well before the merger. We were getting new airplanes and Pilots were upgrading (slowly), another words there was growth and opportunity. You staple us like you want and opportunity is gone. Likewise if there was growth and opportunity at Options then you shouldn't lose that either. Percentage shares the opportunity fairly with both groups and everyone stays exactly where they were before the merge.

it's hard to remain civil because 8 to 10 year captains at Flexjet are in danger of losing their seats and FOs will never have a chance to upgrade. Those in favor of DOH are nothing but opportunist who are willing to staple their so-called fellow pilots.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Don't let them get to you el. KR has told us many times in the past that we all had opportunities for advancement either thru expansion or acquisition. Remember the CitationAir deal? Take the planes and lay off their pilots? We didn't fall for it then, and we aren't falling for it now.

 

[TexasChallenger]

What's your point? There wouldn't be any upgrades much less the opportunity for those who were furloughed at Options to return if it weren't for Flex.

You're talking about downgrading 100+ captains and screwing 100 first officers at Flex by stapling them to the bottom because you feel you're entitled to our seats? DOH is only "fair" for Options... no, "fair" is the wrong term, it's more like an "opportunity" for Options pilots to advance at the expense of Flexjet pilots.


"Fair" would be for both pilot groups to look at what position they were in before the companies merged. Flexjet was profitable. There was talk and evidence of growth in the company well before the merger. We were getting new airplanes and Pilots were upgrading (slowly), another words there was growth and opportunity. You staple us like you want and opportunity is gone. Likewise if there was growth and opportunity at Options then you shouldn't lose that either. Percentage shares the opportunity fairly with both groups and everyone stays exactly where they were before the merge.

it's hard to remain civil because 8 to 10 year captains at Flexjet are in danger of losing their seats and FOs will never have a chance to upgrade. Those in favor of DOH are nothing but opportunist who are willing to staple their so-called fellow pilots.

Captain positions are protected by law and it's also reiterated in the Flight Options contract: "...there shall be no system flush."

 

[el raton]

Captain positions are protected by law and it's also reiterated in the Flight Options contract: "...there shall be no system flush."

For how long? What happens when they do away with the Lear fleet? When these pilots are displaced they will go to the airplanes their seniority holds. No System flush is only beneficial in a growing fleet.

 

[TexasChallenger]

Downsizing, company financial struggles, etc, arent part of our integration process. The law states that there will be no system flush and that your seat is protected unless the Company can prove a financial distress or if there is downsizing taking place. Neither is happening under DAC. Quite the opposite.

 

[el raton]

Downsizing, company financial struggles, etc, arent part of our integration process. The law states that there will be no system flush and that your seat is protected unless the Company can prove a financial distress or if there is downsizing taking place. Neither is happening under DAC. Quite the opposite.

The Lear fleet is shrinking. So, as the fleet decreases pilots will have to be displaced. If that's the case, which aircraft will a Lear captain hired in 05-06 go? Remember, youre advocating DOH which will stick 300+ pilots ahead of them. Do they move to captain in the challenger? No, we will be stuck in the right seat of whatever. If we are in the bottom 200 at Flex we are going to get screwed, while other over a period of time, will unfairly take our seats. So, I guess the good news is, I have a little time to prepare.


The last year at Flex has opened my eyes and revealed the character of those I work with. The top tear of the of our seniority list has always screwed those of us at the bottom for their own selfish gain. I am part of the bottom of the seniority list. I carry the load so you can get a 12-14 day line, Texaschallenger. Thanks for helping the Options side screw us.

Everyone who will be stapled by DOH needs to make their voice heard. Percentage is the only fair solution.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

el, they have been screwing me for x amount of years for their own selfish gain.

 

[luckydog]

The ink didn't even have a chance to dry on the "We Win" page and the DoH dorks come out of the shadows. You guys are Red Label material for sure.

It's the simplest thing to merge these two lists: zipper the damn thing and move on. If you're at the bottom of either list, you're still at the bottom. Using this shotgun wedding as a lottery win isn't fair or equitable to any one. Fence agreements will give all to junior guys opportunity to upgrade in order. Unfenced aircraft will go in seniority order regardless of which company you belonged. The pain of aircraft disposal will be shared.

Is it fair that a 15 year options guy is a FO while 10 year Flex guys are captains, absolutely it is; does it suck, absolutely.

This is a brand new start for both groups don't F it up in the first 5 minutes.

 

[Pervis]

There is no point pissing on each other. The arbitrator will have the final word since the union and the company will unlikely come to an agreement. Some will be happy, and some will be unhappy. Mergers are funny in that respect.

 

[doh]

Management does not get a say in merging our list.

 

[J3guy]

i would favor percentage with career expectations heavily factored. I don't want to lose my captain seat when the lear goes away only to be forced into anything that options flies, probably right seat too. Their entire fleet has zero appeal to me. We all know why the Lear fleet is rumoured to go away. Six seat plane, reduced range at a premium cost. I didn't screw that one up and don't want to be negatively impacted by that. Flexjet has been growing and was, if not still profitable. Anything less and Flex is going to lose a lot of hardworking people with great customer service skills to the 121 world. IMO
Like its been said many times, arbitration will settle this, not us.

 

[TexasChallenger]

The ink didn't even have a chance to dry on the "We Win" page and the DoH dorks come out of the shadows. You guys are Red Label material for sure.

It's the simplest thing to merge these two lists: zipper the damn thing and move on. If you're at the bottom of either list, you're still at the bottom. Using this shotgun wedding as a lottery win isn't fair or equitable to any one. Fence agreements will give all to junior guys opportunity to upgrade in order. Unfenced aircraft will go in seniority order regardless of which company you belonged. The pain of aircraft disposal will be shared.

Is it fair that a 15 year options guy is a FO while 10 year Flex guys are captains, absolutely it is; does it suck, absolutely.

This is a brand new start for both groups don't F it up in the first 5 minutes.

A zipper method, or one for one, only works if both lists are identical in size.

There is no point pissing on each other. The arbitrator will have the final word since the union and the company will unlikely come to an agreement. Some will be happy, and some will be unhappy. Mergers are funny in that respect.

From the FLOPs contract; "...the Company SHALL accept..." DOH is correct, the company doesn't have any say in seniority list integration.

 

[shanes123]

J3GUY. Anything less and Flex is going to lose a lot of hardworking people with great customer service skills to the 121 world. IMO

DONT LET THE COCKPIT DOOR HIT YA IN THE A....YOU SUPER PILOTS Are replaceable believe it or not..DAC won't crumble without you

I Don't know where these FLEX guys have gotten this opinion of themselves that their so much better. 300 of them vote no = STUPID in my book and the few I have met on the road have backed up that equation. Just cause your mother told you your handsome doesn't mean you are.

 

[T-1GUY]

Welcome to the party pal...

 

[dime line]

Welcome to the party pal...

We have already been drunk at this party