SkyWest takes Delta for Everything It's Got

[goahead]

Jesus, you guys need to get a fu_king life, lets see.... playoffs this weekend college basketball is on right now.... beer is on sale again......etc.....

 

[Illinois]

General - Didn't UPS fly multiple airframes for the same rate before SKYW?

Heavy Set - We overwelmingly turned down the last pay proposal. Caving?

You both can justifiably criticize SKYW for many things, but check your facts when you do please. We aren't the pilot group we were a couple of year's ago.

 

[General Lee]

Jesus, you guys need to get a fu_king life, lets see.... playoffs this weekend college basketball is on right now.... beer is on sale again......etc.....

Why are you on here then? Go back to the tube, you boob.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

General - Didn't UPS fly multiple airframes for the same rate before SKYW?

Heavy Set - We overwelmingly turned down the last pay proposal. Caving?

You both can justifiably criticize SKYW for many things, but check your facts when you do please. We aren't the pilot group we were a couple of year's ago.

And CAL has grouped their planes into "narrowbody and widebody." There is actually a pay difference there, and at UPS they are paid a heck of a lot more than you are. UPS has their pay on the HIGH side (not the low side like you guys---flying CR7s for CR2 wages) and the senior guys fly smaller planes (the 727) for the same higher wage of the 747. That is the way to do it. You have it backwards. You accepted the same low pay for the larger aircraft. We brought our 757 pay up to the 767 pay. Got it yet?

And you said you did not cave on your raise. Ok, what now? The company has you at "hello...." Thanks Jerry Maguire. Let me guess what they will say about future pay raises......???? Ummmmm, no?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Illinois]

Skywest = Bad

Is this your point?

 

[Rogue5]

And CAL has grouped their planes into "narrowbody and widebody." There is actually a pay difference there, and at UPS they are paid a heck of a lot more than you are. UPS has their pay on the HIGH side (not the low side like you guys---flying CR7s for CR2 wages) and the senior guys fly smaller planes (the 727) for the same higher wage of the 747. That is the way to do it. You have it backwards. You accepted the same low pay for the larger aircraft. We brought our 757 pay up to the 767 pay. Got it yet?Bye Bye--General Lee

General, you are comparing apples to oranges: SkyWest is a regional airline, a lift-provider to its mainline partner, and as such is a stepping-stone career wise to its pilots.

Do you disparage yourself for the wages you agreed to accept when flying your commuter plane out of MDW? It allowed you to advance to your position at a major, so how could you throw stones at those who follow in your steps?

 

[General Lee]

General, you are comparing apples to oranges: SkyWest is a regional airline, a lift-provider to its mainline partner, and as such is a stepping-stone career wise to its pilots.

Do you disparage yourself for the wages you agreed to accept when flying your commuter plane out of MDW? It allowed you to advance to your position at a major, so how could you throw stones at those who follow in your steps?

I didn't advocate Midway Connection getting larger planes, I actively went out looking for better employment when I could. I didn't want to bring bigger planes DOWN to the "commuter level" (what we had back then--not a regional yet)--I wanted to go fly bigger planes at a bigger airline. The people at SkyWest cannot see that. CAL is hiring----go for it guys. And, I liked getting a raise when I went to the left seat of that E120, it was a lot more than the left seat of the Dornier 228. That isn't the case at SkyWest.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Rogue5]

I didn't advocate Midway Connection getting larger planes, I actively went out looking for better employment when I could. I didn't want to bring bigger planes DOWN to the "commuter level" (what we had back then--not a regional yet)--I wanted to go fly bigger planes at a bigger airline. The people at SkyWest cannot see that. CAL is hiring----go for it guys. And, I liked getting a raise when I went to the left seat of that E120, it was a lot more than the left seat of the Dornier 228. That isn't the case at SkyWest.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Might I be so bold, oh glorious General, to suggest that you might not have any idea as to what you are talking about with respect to me and my fellow SkyWesters? Almost every Captain I know that has 1,000 hours PIC is beating down every door they can to make their move to the next level, and many are moving on: to jetBlue, to CAL, to SWA...

But might I also be so bold as to suggest that times currently are not so prosperous as they were when you made you giant leap to the majors? Perhaps the pilots at SkyWest are not moving just as quick as they may choose because just maybe, there are not so many jobs at the majors to be had as there once were before.

PLEASE do us all the favor of holding back you condescension in your attempts to tell us that jobs gained at the regionals are jobs lost at the majors. We all know this: you are not some enlightened messiah come down from on high at the Majors board to enlighten us lowly regional pilots.

We get it guy, thanks for the update.

Here's another one for you: We can't do anything to stop it.

Who can? YOU, General.

YOU, General, have the leverage to negotiate iron-clad scope to keep those jobs at the major level. YOU, General, have the leverage to initiate a work-action that will directly affect your company's future, rather that just force them to outsource to another lift-provider. YOU, General, have the full support of ALPA, without any conflict of interest, to coerce your company into establishing a precedent that the industry can follow.

Regional airlines, my dear, are just better paid commuter airlines with jets instead of turboprops.

We're all waiting for you guys to make a stand to protect your jobs, because just as those who came before you, you protect yourself by providing for those who follow...

 

[General Lee]

Might I be so bold, oh glorious General, to suggest that you might not have any idea as to what you are talking about with respect to me and my fellow SkyWesters? Almost every Captain I know that has 1,000 hours PIC is beating down every door they can to make their move to the next level, and many are moving on: to jetBlue, to CAL, to SWA...

But might I also be so bold as to suggest that times currently are not so prosperous as they were when you made you giant leap to the majors? Perhaps the pilots at SkyWest are not moving just as quick as they may choose because just maybe, there are not so many jobs at the majors to be had as there once were before.

PLEASE do us all the favor of holding back you condescension in your attempts to tell us that jobs gained at the regionals are jobs lost at the majors. We all know this: you are not some enlightened messiah come down from on high at the Majors board to enlighten us lowly regional pilots.

We get it guy, thanks for the update.

Here's another one for you: We can't do anything to stop it.

Who can? YOU, General.

YOU, General, have the leverage to negotiate iron-clad scope to keep those jobs at the major level. YOU, General, have the leverage to initiate a work-action that will directly affect your company's future, rather that just force them to outsource to another lift-provider. YOU, General, have the full support of ALPA, without any conflict of interest, to coerce your company into establishing a precedent that the industry can follow.

Regional airlines, my dear, are just better paid commuter airlines with jets instead of turboprops.

We're all waiting for you guys to make a stand to protect your jobs, because just as those who came before you, you protect yourself by providing for those who follow...

Finally, someone understands the situation. You are right. We do have the power(somewhat) to control our own destiny. So do you though. You guys voted intially to give them the farm---because your junior pilots wanted the upgrade at all costs, while the junior Captains wanted more lines for better QOL. Only the senior pilots saw the writing on the wall. You created this mess.

As far as us making a stand--we have so far---inside our ability during a Chap 11 restructuring. We knew there would be some more pay cuts---there had to be. We are now back to reality when it comes to our pay. We actually took a big stand back in 2000---and got the BEST CONTRACT EVER. Some might say that that contract led to our demise--which I disagree--since we were a fixed cost. We took that 33% pay cut last December (bringing us down a lot and closer to the others)---and it still didn't help us avoid Chap 11---due to high oil costs. Now we are still fighting for what is fair, and at the same time trying to help this company--without being their ATM. We are also fighting for scope protection to fight for planes that would directly replace our 737-200s.

So, I am glad you finally are seeing what is going on here. I hope you do go for CAL, UPS, Fedex, or Southwest---and something bites. Good luck.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[V1andgo]

General
Why should a pilot receive higher pay for bigger equipment?

In order for your airline to become more profitable, and consequently improve your long-term job security, I believe a one fits all pay scale would be better. Is it not the network's overall pax yield, what ultimately determines the amount an airline can afford to pay its employees?
Delta plans on using 100 seater to feed your future 787 in ATL, why should you be entitled to more pay then the guy who flies the 190, bring the connecting pax to ATL?
Let's say you head over to Europe with the 787 and 250 pax, some of which connected within the network, in 7 hrs and a 2 hrs turn. In this case, the airplane's revenue opportunity equals 250 seats in 9 hrs. On the other hand, the 190 flies 2.5 hrs legs with 30 minutes turns. In theory the revenue opportunities between the two is about equal, give or take a few. Of course, I do understand that the set-up cost and operational cost for a short haul operation are higher ----- this here is strictly a conceptional comparison. Also, when pax travel on Delta their decision to do so is most likely a function of network size and convenience. They may consider frequency, destination options, and the cost value they attach to they personal time. At the end, it is the value package of time, convenience, and price that make pax buy tickets on Delta as opposed to United etc.
I believe, all airplanes, regardless of sizes, within the network are interdependent and contribute jointly to the value package which pax want and will pay for. Furthermore, the network size and scope, according to experts, are the most visible differentiation in the airline industry.
Let's assume all Pilots are paid the same regardless of equipment. Pilots would not need to train and jump between equipments just to make more money. Consequently the huge costs and productivity inefficiencies of training would disappear. Making the cost structure more competitive and may allow for more investments in network growth. Just a thought. As a side note, it may also improve unity within the pilot group as a whole. No more selling the young or the small. Or in other words, wouldn't that be fair.
No flame bait and no insults --- I really would like to hear your educated opinion.
Thanks

 

[Uppercrust]

Dave,

Even though you like to call me an A hole often, you seem like you really want to debate this. Ok then. You were the first airline to agree to the "any plane for X amount of pay" scheme. That in itself has changed the regional industry. Out of nowhere management types jumped up for joy, high fiving eachother. You didn't even get a $5 difference an hour in pay for your larger aircraft. That is bad. As I said before, we brought our 757 pay UP TO the 767 pay. Big difference. Now jetblue management sets a rate for the 100 seater, and everyone has to take notice. They are profitable and are expanding, and the rest of us are NOT. IF we want to compete, we have to negotiate to fly at something close. You guys really just gave up the farm. You went all the way to 99 seats---not just 70. We aren't agreeing to one pay rate fits all, just a 100 seat rate close to the Jetblue rate. (although USAir/AWA just negotiated a rate a bit higher--$98 an hour for 12 year captain---even though Jetblue goes 1 1/2 pay after 70 hours).

Again---you didn't have to go up to 99 seats for one pay rate. You could have had a $5 difference an hour for the larger plane (CR7), but did not. I am not ignorant---I can see what happened. Sure, you were faced with possible expulsion from UAL had you not taken pay cuts or pay limits---but you went overboard with the "anything up to 99 seats for the same pay."

Neither hypocritical nor ignorant.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Have to agree here. Selling out the whole industry.

 

[Heavy Set]

General
Why should a pilot receive higher pay for bigger equipment?

In order for your airline to become more profitable, and consequently improve your long-term job security, I believe a one fits all pay scale would be better. Is it not the network's overall pax yield, what ultimately determines the amount an airline can afford to pay its employees?
Delta plans on using 100 seater to feed your future 787 in ATL, why should you be entitled to more pay then the guy who flies the 190, bring the connecting pax to ATL?
Let's say you head over to Europe with the 787 and 250 pax, some of which connected within the network, in 7 hrs and a 2 hrs turn. In this case, the airplane's revenue opportunity equals 250 seats in 9 hrs. On the other hand, the 190 flies 2.5 hrs legs with 30 minutes turns. In theory the revenue opportunities between the two is about equal, give or take a few. Of course, I do understand that the set-up cost and operational cost for a short haul operation are higher ----- this here is strictly a conceptional comparison. Also, when pax travel on Delta their decision to do so is most likely a function of network size and convenience. They may consider frequency, destination options, and the cost value they attach to they personal time. At the end, it is the value package of time, convenience, and price that make pax buy tickets on Delta as opposed to United etc.
I believe, all airplanes, regardless of sizes, within the network are interdependent and contribute jointly to the value package which pax want and will pay for. Furthermore, the network size and scope, according to experts, are the most visible differentiation in the airline industry.
Let's assume all Pilots are paid the same regardless of equipment. Pilots would not need to train and jump between equipments just to make more money. Consequently the huge costs and productivity inefficiencies of training would disappear. Making the cost structure more competitive and may allow for more investments in network growth. Just a thought. As a side note, it may also improve unity within the pilot group as a whole. No more selling the young or the small. Or in other words, wouldn't that be fair.
No flame bait and no insults --- I really would like to hear your educated opinion.
Thanks

You would be advocating lower pay for ALL PILOTS. Let's start with the RJ. If you pay pilots a rate higher than the "average" rate on an RJ you would make RJ flights less profitable for the airline on a per flight basis - especially with so many low cost carriers and their low fares. FlyI could not justify high regional wages on its CRJs because its fare were so low that it was losing money on most flights (primarily due to high fuel costs).

For the 100 seater, the wage bar has already been set by JetBlue and USAirways/AWA. Not surprisingly, it is much lower than what a Delta 777 or 767 pilot would make - so, it is unrealistic that any of those pilots would ever accept a reduction in wages to that level. This is a case where theory and realism do not agree. If airline managers had there way of course, your idea would become reality to the detriment of all pilots who strive to earn more over the course of their careers...

 

[General Lee]

General
Why should a pilot receive higher pay for bigger equipment?

In order for your airline to become more profitable, and consequently improve your long-term job security, I believe a one fits all pay scale would be better. Is it not the network's overall pax yield, what ultimately determines the amount an airline can afford to pay its employees?
Delta plans on using 100 seater to feed your future 787 in ATL, why should you be entitled to more pay then the guy who flies the 190, bring the connecting pax to ATL?
Let's say you head over to Europe with the 787 and 250 pax, some of which connected within the network, in 7 hrs and a 2 hrs turn. In this case, the airplane's revenue opportunity equals 250 seats in 9 hrs. On the other hand, the 190 flies 2.5 hrs legs with 30 minutes turns. In theory the revenue opportunities between the two is about equal, give or take a few. Of course, I do understand that the set-up cost and operational cost for a short haul operation are higher ----- this here is strictly a conceptional comparison. Also, when pax travel on Delta their decision to do so is most likely a function of network size and convenience. They may consider frequency, destination options, and the cost value they attach to they personal time. At the end, it is the value package of time, convenience, and price that make pax buy tickets on Delta as opposed to United etc.
I believe, all airplanes, regardless of sizes, within the network are interdependent and contribute jointly to the value package which pax want and will pay for. Furthermore, the network size and scope, according to experts, are the most visible differentiation in the airline industry.
Let's assume all Pilots are paid the same regardless of equipment. Pilots would not need to train and jump between equipments just to make more money. Consequently the huge costs and productivity inefficiencies of training would disappear. Making the cost structure more competitive and may allow for more investments in network growth. Just a thought. As a side note, it may also improve unity within the pilot group as a whole. No more selling the young or the small. Or in other words, wouldn't that be fair.
No flame bait and no insults --- I really would like to hear your educated opinion.
Thanks

Lufthansa and UPS do that. The most senior Lufthansa pilots are the 737 pilots that fly around Europe and are home more often or less tired. That is ok to offer that, but you would have to be paid very well on all types. That's not really how we in the States do it (except UPS--but they pay well). If we did that though---we would have to pay the same high rate for the 100 seater as we do for the 777, and that would not be competitive to Jetblue's E190. I am sure that if the money was right, some senior guy would rather not get jetlag once a week and look even older than he is, and fly domestically if the trips were nice. But, managment looks at the competition and they are the ones who saw the new Jetblue 100 seat rate and offered it to us. No senior pilot (making 777 Captain pay) would bid down to fly that plane making half the money. As I said before, at UPS the 727 is very senior. Could that happen at Delta with an E190 at the same rate as a 777? (for longevity--12 year Captain makes the same on any plane) I don't think so. I personally think you should be paid by the amount of revenue you bring in. The bigger the payload, the more pay you should make. I know you can say a regional jet could do 6 legs and bring in the same amount of pax, but so can a 764 in ATL doing 4 FLA legs (2 turns). That could be close to 1000 pax.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ReverseSensing]

That's not really how we in the States do it (except UPS...).

And, except for the U.S. Military.

I personally think you should be paid by the amount of revenue you bring in. The bigger the payload, the more pay you should make.

But it's the airline's revenue, not the aircraft's. I know it's virtually sacrilege, but in some ways, I wonder if it would be better to pay solely based on longevity/seniority (like the military), and let people bid QOL, even if it is in a smaller aircraft. Think of the training costs that could be saved.

 

[goahead]

Jen lea,

You really are an idiot....... just give up on good ole DAL and go to UPS if that is what your wife want's. Of course you probably have less 121 PIC time then I do .

Good luck. C-YA at the interview....

Dream on hooker.........................that's you the "hooker"

ASA CR2 CA

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Dave,

Even though you like to call me an A hole often, you seem like you really want to debate this. Ok then. You were the first airline to agree to the "any plane for X amount of pay" scheme. That in itself has changed the regional industry. Out of nowhere management types jumped up for joy, high fiving eachother. You didn't even get a $5 difference an hour in pay for your larger aircraft. That is bad. As I said before, we brought our 757 pay UP TO the 767 pay. Big difference. Now jetblue management sets a rate for the 100 seater, and everyone has to take notice. They are profitable and are expanding, and the rest of us are NOT. IF we want to compete, we have to negotiate to fly at something close. You guys really just gave up the farm. You went all the way to 99 seats---not just 70. We aren't agreeing to one pay rate fits all, just a 100 seat rate close to the Jetblue rate. (although USAir/AWA just negotiated a rate a bit higher--$98 an hour for 12 year captain---even though Jetblue goes 1 1/2 pay after 70 hours).

Again---you didn't have to go up to 99 seats for one pay rate. You could have had a $5 difference an hour for the larger plane (CR7), but did not. I am not ignorant---I can see what happened. Sure, you were faced with possible expulsion from UAL had you not taken pay cuts or pay limits---but you went overboard with the "anything up to 99 seats for the same pay."

Neither hypocritical nor ignorant.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Generally Dull,

I don't like to call you an a-hole often, only once in a while. I don't even see that adjective used to describe you in the post quoted.

SKYW never agreed to fly "any plane for X amount of pay." If I'm not mistaken the scale referred to turbojet aircraft with 50-99 seats. Furthermore I think there was another payscale covering airframes with 100-1xx seats.

I don't think the 18 month SKYW TA did anywhere near the damage that PFT did. I'm not defending the TA, just stating my perception as someone who had to get out of the industry when all the regionals with few exceptions went to PFT. SKYW did without PFT.

You claim SKYW pilots could have had an extra $5 / hour to fly the CR7. Were you involved with the negotiations? Quite frankly I'm amazed because I doubt you'd have the time for it. Between flying for DAL and penning 6000+ posts you're a busy guy. Isn't it a bit more likely that SKYW pilots were told that the only way they'd see more pay on the CR7 would be a paycut on the CR2? Weren't most of the other UAX carriers taking paycuts on the CR2 at the time? I know Air Whisky did. Seems like ACA did for a while before they went independent.

Your final observation is intriguing.

Sure, you were faced with possible expulsion from UAL had you not taken pay cuts or pay limits---but you went overboard with the "anything up to 99 seats for the same pay."

Now I can't decide whether you're ignorant, hypocritical, or both.
You've accepted huge paycuts and will likely sacrifice your pension. You might be getting a new airframe (E-190) and you're rabidly defending the POS rates on it by telling us that's what you have to do to get the aircraft on the property. Yet you give SKYW guys a huge ration of $hit for taking what they were told was an 18 month deal on airframes that weren't even on the property. There were no paycuts. No reduction in other compensation.

You always like to bring up that combined 757/767 rate. How's that compare to what a Southwest guy makes flying a smaller airplane? Are those 777 rates lower than Southwest too? I think you went overboard with those paycuts General. What were you thinking? Maybe the same thoughts that the SKYW guys were thinking - that they might not have a job because of a bankrupt legacy carrier taking it away from them?

 

[goodto50meters]

Generally Dull,Were you involved with the negotiations?

Dave,

While I agree with some of the things that you post, lets be honest, there is no such thing as "negotiations" at SkyWest between the pilots and management. There is no official NMB recognized bargaining entity there, therefore any "negotiations" are just a favor by management or worse a kangaroo political stunt.

While you may get a semblance of "say" in the process, management retains the power to do whatever they want, with no recourse by the pilots.

Not trying to slam you or anything, just sayin. Kinda like "Truth In Posting".

Looking forward to our groups becoming one!

 

[ReverseSensing]

Dave,

While I agree with some of the things that you post, lets be honest, there is no such thing as "negotiations" at SkyWest between the pilots and management. There is no official NMB recognized bargaining entity there, therefore any "negotiations" are just a favor by management or worse a kangaroo political stunt.

While you may get a semblance of "say" in the process, management retains the power to do whatever they want, with no recourse by the pilots.

Not trying to slam you or anything, just sayin. Kinda like "Truth In Posting".

Looking forward to our groups becoming one!

You forgot to add, "I'm a lesbian."

 

[Doug Parker]

.


Dayum Dave B.,

Are you still mad at the General for leaving that Mushroom Print on your forehead?


.

 

[General Lee]

Jen lea,

You really are an idiot....... just give up on good ole DAL and go to UPS if that is what your wife want's. Of course you probably have less 121 PIC time then I do .

Good luck. C-YA at the interview....

Dream on hooker.........................that's you the "hooker"

ASA CR2 CA

Wow, that was wonderful. Amazing. Tremendous. You're cool. And, I never said I wanted to go to UPS---I just said UPS pays well on every aircraft. If you present yourself like you did here at the UPS interview there is no doubt you will be hired to clean the lavs there. Go for it.


Bye Bye--General Lee