SkyWest takes Delta for Everything It's Got

[Dave Benjamin]

But, any jet over 50 seats is where your future growth could be, and even a large turboprop like the Q400 would fall into the "up to 99 seat" range. It was a bad thing to agree to. Every other large regional out there pays more for larger RJs.

The Q-400 has props. Thus it doesn't quite fit into the "turbojet aircraft w/ 50-99 seat" description now does it? Since noone at the airline is trained on the Q-400 they can't be forced to fly it unless the rate is acceptable. In the event those airframes show up there will probably be a new rate established.

Yes the 50-99 seat pay deal was a bad thing to agree to. For some it appeared a better alternative than possibly losing the UAX contract that even you agreed was at risk.

Last I checked you agreed to bad things as well.

Pick your poison. You gave away so much that guys are leaving in droves freeing up that left seat for you. You've got the bar lowered to the "low end LCC" position. I don't see much of a future for DAL pilots with the exception of the ones like yourself who have been there a while.

Both pilot groups gave up something because of a bankrupt legacy carrier threatening them. It's unfortunate you're blind to that fact.

 

[General Lee]

The Q-400 has props. Thus it doesn't quite fit into the "turbojet aircraft w/ 50-99 seat" description now does it? Since noone at the airline is trained on the Q-400 they can't be forced to fly it unless the rate is acceptable. In the event those airframes show up there will probably be a new rate established.

Yes the 50-99 seat pay deal was a bad thing to agree to. For some it appeared a better alternative than possibly losing the UAX contract that even you agreed was at risk.

Last I checked you agreed to bad things as well.

Pick your poison. You gave away so much that guys are leaving in droves freeing up that left seat for you. You've got the bar lowered to the "low end LCC" position. I don't see much of a future for DAL pilots with the exception of the ones like yourself who have been there a while.

Both pilot groups gave up something because of a bankrupt legacy carrier threatening them. It's unfortunate you're blind to that fact.

Dave,

Again, don't get testy, it shows weakness. I know what a Q400 is, and it would pay less or equal to your CR7. And, you don't understand why we lost 2300 pilots. We never gave anything away there, we actually ALLOWED via our contract to take half of the "promised" pension in a lump sum. That is something the NW guys WISH they had. Those guys cannot leave early, and many probably planned on having some sort of pension. Now, they have to stay until 60, and then they still might not have a pension. Atleast some of our guys got half, and if they stayed over 25 years, got $1 million. (above their 401Ks) The rest of us have to fend for ourselves, but most of us have more than 10 years to go until 60. Having 2300 guys leave was great for the rest of us under 50 years old. Understand yet?

You don't see much of a future for the rest of us? Compared to your future at SkyWest? You have got to be kidding me. I still can move up to larger aircraft FOR MORE PAY. And, look at United's new "pension" type plan. They are given a 15% match on their monthly pay checks for their 401Ks. That could be a lot eventually--given 15 to 20 years at that rate. We should get the same at least. How about you guys there at SkyWest?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Rogue5]

You don't see much of a future for the rest of us? Compared to your future at SkyWest? You have got to be kidding me.

General,

Again: apples and oranges.

SkyWest is not a career airline. The average age of the pilots here (Captains and F.O.s combined) has got to be somewhere right around 30.

The aviation gods willing, we have long careers at major airlines ahead of us...

 

[goodto50meters]

It doesn't look like much progress in your negotiations and from what I've read on these boards it looks like some fairly serious concessions you're facing. A lot of people talk tough on the board but I have to wonder how it will play out in reality. A lot of ASA pilots have expressed a desire for a package comparable to SkyWest.

Given the lack of paycuts or serious concessions at SkyWest one could argue that SkyWest pilots have fared far better than their counterparts elesewhere. Although the 18 month TA is long expired pilots with more than 2 years of service have been getting a bonus in the 6-7.5% range. So anyone who was on the property when the TA was voted on has enjoyed a raise of sorts, but nothing that can be relied upon indefinitely since it's tied to profit margin. Due to the strong stock performance almost all employees are seeing a 73.8% return on a figure as high as 15% of their gross earnings over the last 6 months. So for an RJ Captain that's about 5 or 6 bucks an hour more before taxes and that's on top of profit sharing. It's not all bad. I'd be willing to bet a C-note that if you compared 1040's between 2 CR7 qualified captains with the same hire date the guy at SKYW would have more to show especially if he did the stock plan.

Although many would like to see the pilot groups merged it's not going to happen. The guys in SGU are far smarter than Ornstein. They have insured a single carrier petition will fail. The recent TSA-G0-Jets debacle illustrates that point. So unless SGU decides to merge the 2 groups it won't happen.

Dave,

True that some pilots are saying that SkyWest work rules are attractive, the payrates are not. If a TA came through with modified SkyWest workrules and COLA pay increases with backpay, it would probably fly. If it were to be contigent on going non union, dead on arrival. There is no way we would go forward without the enforcement safeguards of the union. One could argue that your group has fared well due too management wanting to keep unions away by bootsrapping your rules and pay generally to the union carriers that set them rendering the percieved value of a union as less. I'm not saying it was bad for them to do that, but it is what it is. They have messed up though in renegging on the promise of a CR7 rate, this has fueled the pro union flames from what i hear from friends of mine there.

On the Single Carrier issue, I wouldnt be too sure it would fail, many of the reasons the TSA-GJA petition failed do not apply in our situation and most would favor a merging based on the precedents set. The more they consolidate management functions at INC like the new benefits guy along with CEO and CFO, all blow a hole in a denial of a petition. Combined management functions are essential in a successful petition and unfortunately did not exist at TSA-GJA, and Hulas didnt participate in either, he simply owned. Atkin participates accross the board, so does the CFO guy and now more and more lesser managers like Higgins. Also Lisa Larue of ASA was moved to an INC position.

 

[General Lee]

General,

Again: apples and oranges.

SkyWest is not a career airline. The average age of the pilots here (Captains and F.O.s combined) has got to be somewhere right around 30.

The aviation gods willing, we have long careers at major airlines ahead of us...

I hope so. If some people want to stay in the regionals, that is fine, except they shouldn't expect non-regional pay or benefits. But, some do, and they are called the RJDC.

And Rogue 5, you seem to have a good attitude. I bet you will get whatever you want eventually.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ReportCanoa]

I hope so. If some people want to stay in the regionals, that is fine, except they shouldn't expect non-regional pay or benefits. But, some do, and they are called the RJDC.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Whatever, General. Every employee in the United States of America has the right to fight for better pay and working conditions. Who are you to dictate what lifestyle a regional pilot lives? Maybe you have visions of cracking RJ pilot kneecaps or something. Or maybe you're just coming to terms that your dick hasn't grown like you'd hoped.

 

[Halo_RJdriver]

weepy GL flea

Southwest has a great payscale. And, they deserve it. Their company is doing well, and it behooves us to have higher pay above us, so we can ask for it again someday. Yes, they fly smaller planes, but they are profitable. You guys at SkyWest are profitable too, but for some reason gave up the farm and now will get CR2 pay for anything up to 99 seats. Our pay cut is understandable. Why didn't they use a fraction of that $400 million to buy ASA to give you a $5 an hour raise on that CR7? Are you worth it? Not according to Brad Holt and Ron Reber. Our 777 rates are in line with AA, NW, CAL, UAL, etc----and we can eventually go higher if we ever become profitable. Can you ask for the same? You turned down your TA. Now what? What is next for you guys?
Bye Bye--General Lee

[FONT=&quot]Wow...I can't believe mine eyes!!! You think wn deserves their great payscale? Why don't you tell us why? you think because they sell cheap seats they deserve more $$$. I don't think they deserve any more pay than a valuejet capt. (sarcasm) wn started the slide we are all facing. What do you think of the company wal-mart? Do you know DAL's history in the early 90's? I know a handful of retired DAL CA. that would chew you up and throw you down the stairs for some of the GL trailer gospel you spew. DAL's problem is mangement 101. Business minds of ATL have crapped the bed and don't seem to want to get a new mattress. Besides the Pilots, the rest of the company is treated like a bunch of railroad pioneers.


Anyone with 2.5 years at Skywest was not around to vote on the worthless 18 month TA. That means about 1/2 the pilot group didn't vote on it. Most of us agree that they should pay $5 or more an hour for the CR7. I haven't heard you comment on ASA's 50 seat pay. IT SUX!! After COMair's demise SKYW will be at least 3rd in pay if not 2nd as far as Regionals go. Horizon, ASA/SKYW and whats left of XJT. SkyW pilots are continually informed how we need to stay competitive or we will fall by the way side. 70% is BS, the other 30% is true. Meanwhile you jab at SKYW while they have been keeping your trash afloat for the last decade. DAL may rise again but you better be grateful for some quality regionals (ASA/SKYW/Comair) that are carrying you there.[/FONT]

 

[General Lee]

Whatever, General. Every employee in the United States of America has the right to fight for better pay and working conditions. Who are you to dictate what lifestyle a regional pilot lives? Maybe you have visions of cracking RJ pilot kneecaps or something. Or maybe you're just coming to terms that your dick hasn't grown like you'd hoped.

Great comeback--- "Whatever." Hey, I don't mind employees fighting for better pay and working conditions. I think that is great. That is not what the RJDC is doing. They are full of senior jerks that are too lazy to start over with a new company, so they try to bring larger planes DOWN to their own company. They don't want to fly in the right seat again, and they don't want to start flying weekends again. They like their 4 weeks vacation in Myrtle Beach. Get the picture yet? They need to apply to CAL---they are hiring.(unless they are afraid of the interview...) And, my wife is happy.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

[FONT=&quot]Wow...I can't believe mine eyes!!! You think wn deserves their great payscale? Why don't you tell us why? you think because they sell cheap seats they deserve more $$$. I don't think they deserve any more pay than a valuejet capt. (sarcasm) wn started the slide we are all facing. What do you think of the company wal-mart? Do you know DAL's history in the early 90's? I know a handful of retired DAL CA. that would chew you up and throw you down the stairs for some of the GL trailer gospel you spew. DAL's problem is mangement 101. Business minds of ATL have crapped the bed and don't seem to want to get a new mattress. Besides the Pilots, the rest of the company is treated like a bunch of railroad pioneers.


Anyone with 2.5 years at Skywest was not around to vote on the worthless 18 month TA. That means about 1/2 the pilot group didn't vote on it. Most of us agree that they should pay $5 or more an hour for the CR7. I haven't heard you comment on ASA's 50 seat pay. IT SUX!! After COMair's demise SKYW will be at least 3rd in pay if not 2nd as far as Regionals go. Horizon, ASA/SKYW and whats left of XJT. SkyW pilots are continually informed how we need to stay competitive or we will fall by the way side. 70% is BS, the other 30% is true. Meanwhile you jab at SKYW while they have been keeping your trash afloat for the last decade. DAL may rise again but you better be grateful for some quality regionals (ASA/SKYW/Comair) that are carrying you there.[/FONT]

Ok, here we go again. Do I know DL's history? Of course I do, and I would easily debate and then kick your ex DL captains butts. I know our managment team was not stellar to say the least. But, Southwest has had solid management, and when things are good, people should get paid well. That is of course, except at SkyWest. Oh man, you fell right into that one. SNAP! Too easy.

I am sure ASA 50 seat pay suks. IT all suks. That is why you should WANT to move on eventually. That may be easier said than done, but it will take a lot longer if your senior guys want and get larger RJs. Those senior guys have NO plan to leave SkyWest or any other regional--so they are louder at the meetings and intimidate the junior guys. Seniority is everything to some of those guys, and that should make you nervous. I know you want higher pay, but it really isn't in the cards at most regionals. SkyWest will supress any request you have to raise your pay significantly, and hide under the guise that you may lose everything if you try--when behind your back they are buying up airlines like ASA to whipsaw against you. Our management actually filed for bankruptcy, so now the creditors are watching them. Your management is jumping up and down, laughing the whole time. What can you do about it now? Anything?

And, I am sure we have some quality feed out there. But, don't believe that you guys are "carrying" us out of bankruptcy. Look at the name of this thread. Does it sound like HELP to us? And, good old Fred Betrayl at Comair spelled it out clearly when he said Comair was actually operating at a loss for us. And Ron Reber says you guys are "insulated" from high fuel costs---actually giving us the bill to pay for it. Thanks a lot.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Dave Benjamin]

You don't see much of a future for the rest of us? Compared to your future at SkyWest? You have got to be kidding me. I still can move up to larger aircraft FOR MORE PAY. And, look at United's new "pension" type plan. They are given a 15% match on their monthly pay checks for their 401Ks. That could be a lot eventually--given 15 to 20 years at that rate. We should get the same at least. How about you guys there at SkyWest?

If the future is so bright at legacy carriers why are so many guys bypassing recall? Why do my friends at some majors wish they had gone to work for a different airline or in a different industry? You don't know me but you make a lot of presumptions. One of them is that I'm obsessed with pay and/or bigger aircraft. I 've got news for you. Flying isn't my only source of income. I've got a growing business that I hope to eventually sell for a boatload of money. Maybe it will pan out and maybe it won't. I do make a nice side income from it though. I live in a great area and have enjoyed healthy gains in real estate. My commute is 25 minutes by car. Why would I want to ruin my life with a paycut that would take 3 or 4 years to recover from and to spend the rest of my career commuting? I'm watching a lot of guys go to CO. Good on them. If they find the domiciles appealing or don't mind spending the rest of their career commuting I hope they find happiness and career satisfaction. There are one or two major airlines that I'd consider jumping ship for. However what I've got isn't too bad. 99.9% of the people I work with are awesome and although it's never that fun to be on the road I enjoy my work.

Talk to me after you're out of bankruptcy if your company survives the process. Talk to me after they gut your work rules and narrow body guys are wishing they had work rules like SkyWest or Comair. Go ask any UAL narrowbody pilot about how things are these days. Funny how many of their furloughs don't want to return even though they are currently working for a regional.

The ball is in motion and it's coming at you downhill and fast. That ball of excrement is headed for you and getting bigger. I hope your future turns out as well as you anticipate but I wouldn't be arrogantly boasting right now. There's a lot of ground to cover between now and your exit from bankruptcy. And whether you or I like it or not regionals will be the ones undergoing the most growth in the future. That's just part of the US Wal-Mart economic model and with a bunch of union busters in political power it's probably going to get worse before it gets better. Although you and I might prefer to see larger RJ's go to mainline there's a good chance you'll see them at the DCI carriers, possibly being staffed in part by your furloughed guys.

Most of all you just need to get over yourself. Quit with the disdainful comments and slamming the regionals. You've got a hell of a superiority complex. Much of that is evidenced in the content and quantity of your posts. Is your self esteem so low you have to make yourself feel better by making belittling comments on this forum? I'm sure DAL has an Employee Assistance Program. You might want to check into some counselling. I'm sure it's free and confidential. Have a nice life.

 

[Jon Rivoli]

I made $90K last year and this month I will sleep in my own bed all but five nights. I've only been here six years, why should I be in a hurry to go somewhere else? I'm scratching my head and am having a hard time thinking of a good reason. Lazy? Maybe. Fat, dumb, and happy. OK. Tell me why I should start over somewhere else.

 

[WSurf]

I am moving up seats---to the LEFT seat on the next bid---I will make up for that loss. Ever think of that? No, because you guys are PAID THE SAME FOR ALL AIRCRAFT, and only get paid differently if you upgrade----like I WILL. Thanks for playing dumba$$. You need to think first. We have more than one plane type, and we get paid more to fly BIGGER AIRCRAFT. (if I get 738 Captain in NYC I will get paid more than MD88 in ATL----738 is bigger) How about you CFIT? DUMBA$$. THINK FIRST. HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHA

Bye Bye--General Lee

I won't blow my horn so early General! I don't think Delta Management is done with you folks yet! Look what happened at US Airways! (Same Pay on 319/320/321) Careful what you say, could come back and bit ya in the arse!

 

[~~~^~~~]

I hope so. If some people want to stay in the regionals, that is fine, except they shouldn't expect non-regional pay or benefits. But, some do, and they are called the RJDC.

Bye Bye--General Lee

General: So do you advocate a two tiered profession? The RJDC's battle is over representation, but I do believe that if all pilots in ALPA were provided equal representation, the effect would be a broad based restoration of our profession. General, you can draw lines across narrow and wide body, domestic and international, two engines or more, date of hire, and alter ego carriers, but these lines only divide and lower our profession, because as you have noticed, the more entrants you have, the tougher the competition for pole position on the race for the bottom.

My regional now does the work that airlines like Southern and Delta used to do. Back then both Delta and Southern paid "regional" wages compared to Eastern and Pan Am. However, our union was different then and the National agenda was to raise the standards of all pilots, so that pay was not a deciding factor in the success, or failure, of airlines.

 

[On Your Six]

General: So do you advocate a two tiered profession? The RJDC's battle is over representation, but I do believe that if all pilots in ALPA were provided equal representation, the effect would be a broad based restoration of our profession. General, you can draw lines across narrow and wide body, domestic and international, two engines or more, date of hire, and alter ego carriers, but these lines only divide and lower our profession, because as you have noticed, the more entrants you have, the tougher the competition for pole position on the race for the bottom.

My regional now does the work that airlines like Southern and Delta used to do. Back then both Delta and Southern paid "regional" wages compared to Eastern and Pan Am. However, our union was different then and the National agenda was to raise the standards of all pilots, so that pay was not a deciding factor in the success, or failure, of airlines.

I think GL is making some great points. The wage bar needs to stay high vs. decline. Moving bigger airplanes down to the regionals will only force wages down at both the majors and the regionals. Look at JetBlue and its E190 wages - do the regional pilots expect to earn more than JetBlue E190 wages given the new E190 benchmark? It's logical to think that if you keep the E190 at the majors and you move to the majors, you will eventually upgrade to something that pays better than the E190. True that eventual E190 pilots at the majors will likely now earn JetBlue E190 rates, but at least you can move up to something else.

Unfortunately, with vulture companies like Mesa, TSA, CHQ and Pinnacle out there, regional pilots have too many low-paying benchmarks to expect many wage increases in the future - that's the SAD FACT. Look at Expressjet's situation - it will be forced from an economic cost basis to reduce its operating costs (and therefore pilot salaries) to compete for capacity at CO. Now Mesa wants to compete for that capacity with its lower cost model. It's pretty clear - if you want to earn more money, move to WN or Fedex or an airline where the wage trend is positive (and don't expect to earn higher wages by bringing larger aircraft to the regional fleets - the JetBlue E190 wages or lower are very likely in order to "compete" more effectively). Sad but true...

 

[General Lee]

If the future is so bright at legacy carriers why are so many guys bypassing recall? Why do my friends at some majors wish they had gone to work for a different airline or in a different industry? You don't know me but you make a lot of presumptions. One of them is that I'm obsessed with pay and/or bigger aircraft. I 've got news for you. Flying isn't my only source of income. I've got a growing business that I hope to eventually sell for a boatload of money. Maybe it will pan out and maybe it won't. I do make a nice side income from it though. I live in a great area and have enjoyed healthy gains in real estate. My commute is 25 minutes by car. Why would I want to ruin my life with a paycut that would take 3 or 4 years to recover from and to spend the rest of my career commuting? I'm watching a lot of guys go to CO. Good on them. If they find the domiciles appealing or don't mind spending the rest of their career commuting I hope they find happiness and career satisfaction. There are one or two major airlines that I'd consider jumping ship for. However what I've got isn't too bad. 99.9% of the people I work with are awesome and although it's never that fun to be on the road I enjoy my work.

Talk to me after you're out of bankruptcy if your company survives the process. Talk to me after they gut your work rules and narrow body guys are wishing they had work rules like SkyWest or Comair. Go ask any UAL narrowbody pilot about how things are these days. Funny how many of their furloughs don't want to return even though they are currently working for a regional.

The ball is in motion and it's coming at you downhill and fast. That ball of excrement is headed for you and getting bigger. I hope your future turns out as well as you anticipate but I wouldn't be arrogantly boasting right now. There's a lot of ground to cover between now and your exit from bankruptcy. And whether you or I like it or not regionals will be the ones undergoing the most growth in the future. That's just part of the US Wal-Mart economic model and with a bunch of union busters in political power it's probably going to get worse before it gets better. Although you and I might prefer to see larger RJ's go to mainline there's a good chance you'll see them at the DCI carriers, possibly being staffed in part by your furloughed guys.

Most of all you just need to get over yourself. Quit with the disdainful comments and slamming the regionals. You've got a hell of a superiority complex. Much of that is evidenced in the content and quantity of your posts. Is your self esteem so low you have to make yourself feel better by making belittling comments on this forum? I'm sure DAL has an Employee Assistance Program. You might want to check into some counselling. I'm sure it's free and confidential. Have a nice life.

Dave,

The difference here is that even if we get a pay cut now (or more of a pay cut), chances are that we will eventually raise it back towards where it used to be. You guys are pretty much stuck. I am glad it only takes you 25 minutes to drive to work. That is awesome. Traffic here in ATL probably is worse than there in Salt Lake. Somedays it takes me an hour, depending on the time of the duty in. (they all don't happen at rush hour) And you have a growing business---that is wonderful. I am dabbling in some of that too. IF you don't want to move on to another larger airline, good for you. Stay there by all means. But, don't start crying if the regional airline pay and benefits start to come down like the rest of us. How about your QOL in the decreasing line numbers there in SLC? My buddy there said your lines fell to 160 from 220. That could hurt.

I am glad you KNOW that the "ball of excriment" is coming at us fast. We have taken the majority of our cuts---there may be a few more coming our way--but if you do the math--they said they needed $325 million a year to the judge---we have hit half and the other half will likely be in the form of a credit if the pension is dumped, which is likely with $10.6 billion owed. The majority of that poop ball has hit us, and now I will be bidding for Captain on the next bid probably.

And lastly, I guess I need to stop slamming the regionals---like the name of this thread. What was it again? SkyWest takes Delta for everything its got? Titles like that make me want to respond. There are some really cocky regional pilots that think they have it made, when they really DON'T. With titles like that, it doesn't make me or any other pilot flying at a legacy feel too sympathetic when we hear about the continuing decline of your regional industry pay or QOL. If you want better, you may want to look into applying elsewhere. CAL is hiring.

Bye Bye--General Lee