SkyWest takes Delta for Everything It's Got

[Ralgha]

Even if SkyWest had a 99 seat aircraft, a captain on that aircraft would be making more money per seat than the Delta 767-300 captain.

 

[General Lee]

Generally Dull,

I don't like to call you an a-hole often, only once in a while. I don't even see that adjective used to describe you in the post quoted.

SKYW never agreed to fly "any plane for X amount of pay." If I'm not mistaken the scale referred to turbojet aircraft with 50-99 seats. Furthermore I think there was another payscale covering airframes with 100-1xx seats.

I don't think the 18 month SKYW TA did anywhere near the damage that PFT did. I'm not defending the TA, just stating my perception as someone who had to get out of the industry when all the regionals with few exceptions went to PFT. SKYW did without PFT.

You claim SKYW pilots could have had an extra $5 / hour to fly the CR7. Were you involved with the negotiations? Quite frankly I'm amazed because I doubt you'd have the time for it. Between flying for DAL and penning 6000+ posts you're a busy guy. Isn't it a bit more likely that SKYW pilots were told that the only way they'd see more pay on the CR7 would be a paycut on the CR2? Weren't most of the other UAX carriers taking paycuts on the CR2 at the time? I know Air Whisky did. Seems like ACA did for a while before they went independent.

Your final observation is intriguing.


Now I can't decide whether you're ignorant, hypocritical, or both.
You've accepted huge paycuts and will likely sacrifice your pension. You might be getting a new airframe (E-190) and you're rabidly defending the POS rates on it by telling us that's what you have to do to get the aircraft on the property. Yet you give SKYW guys a huge ration of $hit for taking what they were told was an 18 month deal on airframes that weren't even on the property. There were no paycuts. No reduction in other compensation.

You always like to bring up that combined 757/767 rate. How's that compare to what a Southwest guy makes flying a smaller airplane? Are those 777 rates lower than Southwest too? I think you went overboard with those paycuts General. What were you thinking? Maybe the same thoughts that the SKYW guys were thinking - that they might not have a job because of a bankrupt legacy carrier taking it away from them?

Dave,

Calm down a bit. If this were a highschool debate match, you already would be back home popping the zits on your face and back. Try not to get personal.

You are right, SkyWest does have a pay increase if you go from the E120 to the CRJ. But, any jet over 50 seats is where your future growth could be, and even a large turboprop like the Q400 would fall into the "up to 99 seat" range. It was a bad thing to agree to. Every other large regional out there pays more for larger RJs. Even Mesa pays more to their Captains for the CR9 and CR7. Look at Horizon, ASA(your new friends), Comair, CHQ (REP/SHUT), Mesaba, etc. Your company told you of an possible scenario, and then used $400 million to buy ASA---and will now whipsaw them against you. I think they could have used some of that money to keep the CR2 rates the same, and given something (anything) more on the CR7. Instead, you now have senior guys NOT flying the CR7 (due to the pay), and new upgrades flying them (thanks to extra training in upgrade)---which is what the company wanted all along. They have newer (cheaper--due to longevity) Captains flying larger planes. It would cost them more if they had more senior captians flying that CR7---due to higher year pay scale. It is a win-win for Ron Reber.

As far as our pay cuts, yes, they were deep. It stings, no doubt. But, if you take away our large raise from C2K that we gave back (33% pay cut) in DEC of 04---we went back to about our pre C2K contract. Now, we are in bankruptcy, and we all expect another pay cut. We got 14%, and now we are finalizing the deal with some other cost savings. It is about what we expected, even though it stings. But, another thing happened too----2300 captains left. We all have moved up, regaining some pay and many furloughs have returned. If we get another small round of retirements (end of March)--hopefully more furloughed pilots will return too.

Southwest has a great payscale. And, they deserve it. Their company is doing well, and it behooves us to have higher pay above us, so we can ask for it again someday. Yes, they fly smaller planes, but they are profitable. You guys at SkyWest are profitable too, but for some reason gave up the farm and now will get CR2 pay for anything up to 99 seats. Our pay cut is understandable. Why didn't they use a fraction of that $400 million to buy ASA to give you a $5 an hour raise on that CR7? Are you worth it? Not according to Brad Holt and Ron Reber. Our 777 rates are in line with AA, NW, CAL, UAL, etc----and we can eventually go higher if we ever become profitable. Can you ask for the same? You turned down your TA. Now what? What is next for you guys?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Even if SkyWest had a 99 seat aircraft, a captain on that aircraft would be making more money per seat than the Delta 767-300 captain.

That would be the same with my chartered C182---I can make $500 an hour flying someone from Atlanta Fulton County to Daytona Beach. What is your point? The Delta 767-300 Captain will ALWAYS make more than a SkyWest Captain. Maybe that 767-300 Captain is also being paid more for the cargo we carry too. You should see what we haul to Europe and S. America.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Rogue5]

That would be the same with my chartered C182---I can make $500 an hour flying someone from Atlanta Fulton County to Daytona Beach. What is your point? The Delta 767-300 Captain will ALWAYS make more than a SkyWest Captain. Maybe that 767-300 Captain is also being paid more for the cargo we carry too. You should see what we haul to Europe and S. America.

Bye Bye--General Lee

General,

For the life of me I still can't see why you insist on comparing apples to oranges by pointing out the fact that (GASP!) a major airline pilot makes more money and generally has a better quality of life than a regional airline pilot.

Yes, we all know that.

This is why civilian pilots generally start out in G.A., go to a cargo or 135 operator, then to a regional 121 outfit, then if the aviation gods have smiled on them they make it to the majors. Its called career progression.

Thanks for your input...

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Dave,

While I agree with some of the things that you post, lets be honest, there is no such thing as "negotiations" at SkyWest between the pilots and management. There is no official NMB recognized bargaining entity there, therefore any "negotiations" are just a favor by management or worse a kangaroo political stunt.

While you may get a semblance of "say" in the process, management retains the power to do whatever they want, with no recourse by the pilots.

Not trying to slam you or anything, just sayin. Kinda like "Truth In Posting".

Looking forward to our groups becoming one!

I know some of the guys involved with "negotiations", discussions, or whatever you want to call it. There is a lot of back and forth and although there is no union involved there is some form of negotiation happening. More than anything it comes down to how to divvy up whatever is being offered.

Management can do whatever they want at a non-union carrier. Unfortunately management seems to be doing whatever it wants at union carriers like yours as well. It doesn't look like much progress in your negotiations and from what I've read on these boards it looks like some fairly serious concessions you're facing. A lot of people talk tough on the board but I have to wonder how it will play out in reality. A lot of ASA pilots have expressed a desire for a package comparable to SkyWest.

Given the lack of paycuts or serious concessions at SkyWest one could argue that SkyWest pilots have fared far better than their counterparts elesewhere. Although the 18 month TA is long expired pilots with more than 2 years of service have been getting a bonus in the 6-7.5% range. So anyone who was on the property when the TA was voted on has enjoyed a raise of sorts, but nothing that can be relied upon indefinitely since it's tied to profit margin. Due to the strong stock performance almost all employees are seeing a 73.8% return on a figure as high as 15% of their gross earnings over the last 6 months. So for an RJ Captain that's about 5 or 6 bucks an hour more before taxes and that's on top of profit sharing. It's not all bad. I'd be willing to bet a C-note that if you compared 1040's between 2 CR7 qualified captains with the same hire date the guy at SKYW would have more to show especially if he did the stock plan.

Although many would like to see the pilot groups merged it's not going to happen. The guys in SGU are far smarter than Ornstein. They have insured a single carrier petition will fail. The recent TSA-G0-Jets debacle illustrates that point. So unless SGU decides to merge the 2 groups it won't happen.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

But, any jet over 50 seats is where your future growth could be, and even a large turboprop like the Q400 would fall into the "up to 99 seat" range. It was a bad thing to agree to. Every other large regional out there pays more for larger RJs.

The Q-400 has props. Thus it doesn't quite fit into the "turbojet aircraft w/ 50-99 seat" description now does it? Since noone at the airline is trained on the Q-400 they can't be forced to fly it unless the rate is acceptable. In the event those airframes show up there will probably be a new rate established.

Yes the 50-99 seat pay deal was a bad thing to agree to. For some it appeared a better alternative than possibly losing the UAX contract that even you agreed was at risk.

Last I checked you agreed to bad things as well.

Pick your poison. You gave away so much that guys are leaving in droves freeing up that left seat for you. You've got the bar lowered to the "low end LCC" position. I don't see much of a future for DAL pilots with the exception of the ones like yourself who have been there a while.

Both pilot groups gave up something because of a bankrupt legacy carrier threatening them. It's unfortunate you're blind to that fact.

 

[General Lee]

The Q-400 has props. Thus it doesn't quite fit into the "turbojet aircraft w/ 50-99 seat" description now does it? Since noone at the airline is trained on the Q-400 they can't be forced to fly it unless the rate is acceptable. In the event those airframes show up there will probably be a new rate established.

Yes the 50-99 seat pay deal was a bad thing to agree to. For some it appeared a better alternative than possibly losing the UAX contract that even you agreed was at risk.

Last I checked you agreed to bad things as well.

Pick your poison. You gave away so much that guys are leaving in droves freeing up that left seat for you. You've got the bar lowered to the "low end LCC" position. I don't see much of a future for DAL pilots with the exception of the ones like yourself who have been there a while.

Both pilot groups gave up something because of a bankrupt legacy carrier threatening them. It's unfortunate you're blind to that fact.

Dave,

Again, don't get testy, it shows weakness. I know what a Q400 is, and it would pay less or equal to your CR7. And, you don't understand why we lost 2300 pilots. We never gave anything away there, we actually ALLOWED via our contract to take half of the "promised" pension in a lump sum. That is something the NW guys WISH they had. Those guys cannot leave early, and many probably planned on having some sort of pension. Now, they have to stay until 60, and then they still might not have a pension. Atleast some of our guys got half, and if they stayed over 25 years, got $1 million. (above their 401Ks) The rest of us have to fend for ourselves, but most of us have more than 10 years to go until 60. Having 2300 guys leave was great for the rest of us under 50 years old. Understand yet?

You don't see much of a future for the rest of us? Compared to your future at SkyWest? You have got to be kidding me. I still can move up to larger aircraft FOR MORE PAY. And, look at United's new "pension" type plan. They are given a 15% match on their monthly pay checks for their 401Ks. That could be a lot eventually--given 15 to 20 years at that rate. We should get the same at least. How about you guys there at SkyWest?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Rogue5]

You don't see much of a future for the rest of us? Compared to your future at SkyWest? You have got to be kidding me.

General,

Again: apples and oranges.

SkyWest is not a career airline. The average age of the pilots here (Captains and F.O.s combined) has got to be somewhere right around 30.

The aviation gods willing, we have long careers at major airlines ahead of us...

 

[goodto50meters]

It doesn't look like much progress in your negotiations and from what I've read on these boards it looks like some fairly serious concessions you're facing. A lot of people talk tough on the board but I have to wonder how it will play out in reality. A lot of ASA pilots have expressed a desire for a package comparable to SkyWest.

Given the lack of paycuts or serious concessions at SkyWest one could argue that SkyWest pilots have fared far better than their counterparts elesewhere. Although the 18 month TA is long expired pilots with more than 2 years of service have been getting a bonus in the 6-7.5% range. So anyone who was on the property when the TA was voted on has enjoyed a raise of sorts, but nothing that can be relied upon indefinitely since it's tied to profit margin. Due to the strong stock performance almost all employees are seeing a 73.8% return on a figure as high as 15% of their gross earnings over the last 6 months. So for an RJ Captain that's about 5 or 6 bucks an hour more before taxes and that's on top of profit sharing. It's not all bad. I'd be willing to bet a C-note that if you compared 1040's between 2 CR7 qualified captains with the same hire date the guy at SKYW would have more to show especially if he did the stock plan.

Although many would like to see the pilot groups merged it's not going to happen. The guys in SGU are far smarter than Ornstein. They have insured a single carrier petition will fail. The recent TSA-G0-Jets debacle illustrates that point. So unless SGU decides to merge the 2 groups it won't happen.

Dave,

True that some pilots are saying that SkyWest work rules are attractive, the payrates are not. If a TA came through with modified SkyWest workrules and COLA pay increases with backpay, it would probably fly. If it were to be contigent on going non union, dead on arrival. There is no way we would go forward without the enforcement safeguards of the union. One could argue that your group has fared well due too management wanting to keep unions away by bootsrapping your rules and pay generally to the union carriers that set them rendering the percieved value of a union as less. I'm not saying it was bad for them to do that, but it is what it is. They have messed up though in renegging on the promise of a CR7 rate, this has fueled the pro union flames from what i hear from friends of mine there.

On the Single Carrier issue, I wouldnt be too sure it would fail, many of the reasons the TSA-GJA petition failed do not apply in our situation and most would favor a merging based on the precedents set. The more they consolidate management functions at INC like the new benefits guy along with CEO and CFO, all blow a hole in a denial of a petition. Combined management functions are essential in a successful petition and unfortunately did not exist at TSA-GJA, and Hulas didnt participate in either, he simply owned. Atkin participates accross the board, so does the CFO guy and now more and more lesser managers like Higgins. Also Lisa Larue of ASA was moved to an INC position.

 

[General Lee]

General,

Again: apples and oranges.

SkyWest is not a career airline. The average age of the pilots here (Captains and F.O.s combined) has got to be somewhere right around 30.

The aviation gods willing, we have long careers at major airlines ahead of us...

I hope so. If some people want to stay in the regionals, that is fine, except they shouldn't expect non-regional pay or benefits. But, some do, and they are called the RJDC.

And Rogue 5, you seem to have a good attitude. I bet you will get whatever you want eventually.

Bye Bye--General Lee