Skywest TA??? Pay??

[hawkowl88]

vote no

roblawton,

What part of this don't you understand?

Vote yes=your pay stays the same

Vote no= your pay stays the same

Vote yes= we get bigger planes (whoopee $hit! batman!) your pay stays the same.

Oh we can renegotiate in 18 months for industry standard.

Oh crap!! I forgot we set the industry standard by ratifying this POS TA. Your pay continues to stay the same.

VOTE NO! & Vote often.

 

[Skyward]

Originally posted by Pee_nuss

Im personally voting yes.

The race to the bottom is in full swing!

 

[trip]

vote yes and we will be stuck with a 50 seat scale for the rest of our days at SKYW. In 18 months we will have a few 70 seaters but when we renegoiate our pay we might see a dollar or two raise if we are lucky. The 50 seat scale will stick like glue.

 

[Pee_nuss]

The race to the bottom is in full swing!

You and your buddies will be in line to join skyward!!!


If you even consider the rest of our "contract" the bottom you are sorely mistaken. So are you telling me what we have now is the bottom? Not much changes...


Plus maybe we will be at the bottom, but we have never furloughed.

 

[General Lee]

Pee_Nuss is obviously an FO with a narrow view of the situation--he wants that fast upgrade, regardless of the cost. I predicted that it might pass if all the FO's wanted quick upgrades and the junior Capts wanted better schedules and more domicile choices. Only the senior or mid level Capts would see the light. If this passes it will set the new standard and the other regionals will ask for it too.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Pee_nuss]

As in my previous post general,

The likely hood of us getting more than 10 70 seat aircraft is unrealistic. For the 70 seat pay to increase, 50 seat pay will decrease. I just dont see that as a win win. Sure, the company made money last year, but remember that was on a insulated pay for departure basis. The money we made was on the backs of bankrupt carriers. The bubble will pop, and if the company can't compete, we may all be working for mesa in 18 months anyways.

Except for the few senior pilots who will be flying the 50 seat at a lower rate, because they want a higher scale for the 70's that never came to be. Just be careful guys, its a tough economy, and I honestly think that SAPA did the best they could. I think the next TA will be much worse.

 

[Skyward]

Not the rehash the whole thread, but agreeing to this TA would set a bad precedent. I’m surprised that anyone would agree to this without a fight. Nuss, you’re rolling over for no reason. SkyWest is making money, why on earth would you agree to a concretionary contract. By doing this you’re leading the way to the bottom, at least Mesa put up a small fight.

By the way; we may have guy on furlough, but when they come back it will be to a good contract. We're not participating in the race. Let me know who wins.

 

[skypine27]

"I think the next TA will be much worse"

Then vote NO to that one too. And if the one after that isn't good enough, vote NO again.

I'd much rather vote NO to the next 10 TA's SAPA comes up with then agree to this terrible one. It doesn't cost us 1 cent to vote NO. Let those SAPA guys actually "earn" their 105 hours of pay a month.

 

[AWACoff]

Does it really matter whether you vote "yes" or "no"? You don't have a union. Even if you had a union, I'm sure Skywest would roll over just like AWAC did (yeah). There are too many people running scared. As far as the statement about where would Mesa get aircraft from...there are plenty of airplanes already in United colors that they could pick up from carriers they would put out of business (Skywest, AWAC, ACA). It certainly wouldn't take 5 years to rub out a small name on the side and paint in Most Easily Suckered Airlinepilots.

 

[George Jetson]

Your union, and I'm not talking about the ACA group, I'm talking about ALPA, has a concessionary mindset right now. It is focused on the needs of the majors (like everything else in ALPA). If "the majors" have to take concessions, then of course YOU have to take concessionS too, because that is in "their" interest.

....

Whom do you think recommended to your MEC that concessions were a "good idea"? Any chance it was the same people that "recommended" the Mesa contract? Who "recommended" what happened at ALG/PSA/PDT? Who "recommended" the 16-year Eagle contract? Who is there in the road shows (besides ACA pilots) "recommending" that you should take the deal? Will they be affected by it?

...

Bottom line .... little by little we are all being led like lemmings down the primrose path to making more and more concessions to profitable companies, none of which have so far benefited one single regional pilot and none of which is likely to do so. Meanwhile we race merrily along undermining each other, giving up our seniority to furloughed mainline pilots, sabotaging the negotiations at ASA and COEX and CHQ and benefiting whom? Management ... and a "labor union" with little if any concern for the welfare of its second class members.

Mr. D (I mean Surplus),

While your messages are certainly well written and prophetic, I must say that I sense an enormous amount of paranoia in what you write, especially with respect to your opinions about Herndon. I mean no disrespect with what I am saying here, but everything that you write has to do with how ALPA is screwing over the regional pilots and how there is some Wizard of Oz who controls everything. Get over it dude. ALPA National deals with national issues and supplies each individual MEC's with resources and tools. You know that.

ALPA National is not forcing concessions down ACA's throats. Give me a break. ACA is dealing with their predicament on their own. ALPA National didn't suggest concessions. If ACA votes no and they don't lower their costs, then they will watch their UAL flying go to Mesa, etc. Ask the Bain Group about it. It's a horrible situation...and I am glad I don't have to vote on their TA.

Fortunately my airline is negotiating for increases (contrary to what you said above)...not being led down a path like lemmings, as you say. There is no harming of seniority as you say either...and our situation has nothing to do with ALPA. Both the FTA as well as the flying opportunities we've secured over at Commutair and Skywest for our furloughed pilots.

I'm sure you'll write a long drawn out esoteric email full of rhetoric lambasting me for supporting my MEC and ALPA National. I eagerly await it. In the meantime, I will support my fellow ACA pilots and friends and hope that they can maintain their status as UAX carrier. What a pickle they are in....it sucks.

GJ

 

[maddog805]

Plus maybe we will be at the bottom, but we have never furloughed.

Dude, shut up

Just voted NO!

 

[Russ]

I just joined you in a no vote

 

[Rogue5]

Close, but no cigar.

SkyWest: Great company.

Management and Pilots: Great relationship.

New TA: Not so great.

Just voted NO.

 

[Jeepman]

After reading Ron Reber & Brad Holt's post about how "We need to lower our costs because MESA & Chataqua have both submitted bids to take over our entire UEX flying" I almost voted yes. Then I thought, if I vote yes to this am I continuing the downward slope to poverty?

VOTED N.O. (a.k.a. No Ornstein)

P.S. Pee nus, change your name to Pee on. It's more appropriate.

 

[SKYWRJGUY]

Me too

Also voted no for a variety of reasons--namely there should be more to this TA than simply a "per hour" wage concession.

 

[Skyward]

When does the vote close??

 

[Skull-One]

Re: Lower Pay Hurts Everyone!

The regional airline industry appears to be going down the tubes with regard to pay.... Mesa, Chit-Talk, and NOW SKYWEST will be lowering the bar for all regional pilots in the future.
...
Don't give away the farm and lower the bar for the rest of the industry like Mesa and Chit-Talk have....

I don't know what the heck you are smoking, dude. Chautauqua isn't lowering any bar. It would be stupid to threaten a strike to take a pay cut. DUH....

Then you claim that CHQ has *already* lowered the bar? CHQ? You're nuts. We have some very good items in our long-expired contract that most Regionals don't, and when it expired it was above-average in many areas. Get a grip man and use extreme caution when casting aspersions.

 

[DougCorp-9]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again...

Why does everyone seem to accept that mesa and other regional carriers who agree to fly for less than industry standard put undue pressure on the profession and the contracts of their competition, but when I point out the same effect at aai, luv, or jetblue, my comments are dismissed as the rantings of an "arrogant a-hole Delta pilot."

I fail to see the difference.

And yes, the race to the bottom is most certainly underway.

FDJ,

The difference is the cost structure that AAI, Jetblue, and Luv are based on. The salaries at these airlines are lower in all job catagories from pilots to ramper to the CEOs. We simply do things for less money. This is one reason that we are turning profit and the "Majors" are not. We don't sell any 2000 dollar busines class tickets, ours cost 400-500. It is a simple matter of revenue. We are not the reason that salaries are coming down at the "Majors". The reason for that is the fact that the consumer is no longer willing to pay the ticket prices that support your high salaries. Don't blame us, blame the economy. We don't have fancy crown rooms. Are corporate headquarters is a litlle old building at MCO not a sprawling complex on Virginia Ave. We don't have fancy flat screen TVs at our gates that tell nonrevs when they have a seat. Little stuff like this adds up and adds to the overall cost of an operation. Ad the last time I checked a 12 year B-717 pilot making 152 bucks an hour is not exactly poverty level. You express captains were paid less that that up until your last contract. A CAL 737 captain is making 158 and an America West Captain on any aircraft make 124 so I don't think that we are the "killers" of the industry. Well thought out rebuttals accepted.

 

[Vorleron]

And please let us not forget Mr. "First to Worst" himself: Old Gordon at CAL.

1999 - $400,000
2000 - $700,000
2001 - $4,000,000
2002 - $11,000,000

That's his salary history, which clearly seems to include serious bonuses tied to number of people he has furloughed....

 

[surplus1]

While your messages are certainly well written and prophetic, I must say that I sense an enormous amount of paranoia in what you write, especially with respect to your opinions about Herndon.

Perhaps what you call my paranoia is unjustified; we shall see. I hope you will still be able to feel that way when the time comes to settle your own negotiations.

Yes sir, I do know what ALPA is doing and with all due respect, it is NOT what you seem to think. No personal offense, but the idea that ALPA National deals with "national issues" and supplies each individual MEC with "resources and tools", is nothing more than a regurgitation of ALPA's own propaganda. They sold your group (assuming you are with COEX) that BS when they wanted your vote to get CAL back into the union and you took the bait. Mark my words, it won't be too long before you discover what ALPA National really does with respect to regional carriers. We all get our "trun in the barrel" sooner or later.

Who do you think recommended the infamous 16-year disaster of a contract that burdens the Eagle pilots and rigged the ratification method to ensure its acceptance? Answer: ALPA.

What is ALPA doing today to help the Eagle pilots repel the attack on their jobs perpetrated by AMR and the APA? Perhaps you've seen a lot of protests from the Eagle MEC ... what public position have you seen from ALPA in defense of the Eagle pilots?

Who do you think recommended over and over, including telegrams to every Comair pilot, bypassing the Comair MEC, that we should accept a substandard contract after 3 years of negotiations and in the middle of a strike? Answer: ALPA.

Who do you think invented "Jets for Jobs", a program that abrogates the contracts and seniority of regional pilots in order to get work for furloughed mainline pilots, and then coerced PSA, ALG, PDT and others, into accepting it? Answer: ALPA

Who do you think established, promoted and maintained a policy that resulted in the creation of Freedom and then complained about it and then recommended that Mesa pilots accept an agreement that is nothing less than a tragedy to get rid of it and, of course, accept J4J in the process? Answer: ALPA.

Whose "policy" and J4J protocols resulted in the creation of the Republic alter ego on the Chautauqua property, to undermine their negotiations and force them to accept the abrogation of their seniority in favor of USAirways pilots? Answer: ALPA

Who do you think recommended that Air Wisconsin pilots lower the bar by giving up their hard won contract, among the best at a regional, to give unnecessary concessions and undercut other ALPA carriers, especially in aircraft types that "they" don't want regional pilots to fly? Answer: ALPA

Who do you think is currently recommending that ACA pilots give up their contract and take unnecessary concessions to "match Mesa" in the race to the bottom? Answer: ALPA

Why is SKYW now faced with a concessionary TA, and who do they believe that they have to follow into a race to the bottom? Answer: ALPA

Who is providing your group (COEX/XJT) with "resources and tools" to get a better contract, while at the same time recommending concessions at other carriers that undermine your negotiations and will make you lucky if you can simply keep what you already have? Answer: ALPA

Who is recommending concessions that undermine the current negotiations of the ASA pilots? Answer: ALPA

Who is recommending concessions at other carriers that almost certainly will result in Comair pilots, who struck for 89 days to improve their contract, being asked to give up the gains that they made only 2 years ago? Answer: ALPA. What do you think ALPA will recommend when Delta eventually asks us to make concessions?

Am I truly paranoid or is it maybe that you are naive? Can you name even one instance where ALPA has recommended that any regional not participate in this race to lower their compensation? Has ALPA requested any regional carrier that it represents to stand its ground and not join the spiral to the bottom? Has ALPA requested or advised other regionals to resist the management fear strategy?

Why hasn't ALPA done that? Are the regional carriers in dire financial straits and losing money? Which one of the regional jet carriers is operating in the red and therfore needs to enter concessionary bargaining? What is the reason why ALPA does NOT encourage us all to hold the line? Tell me please.

ALPA National is not forcing concessions down ACA's throats. Give me a break. ACA is dealing with their predicament on their own. ALPA National didn't suggest concessions. If ACA votes no and they don't lower their costs, then they will watch their UAL flying go to Mesa, etc. Ask the Bain Group about it. It's a horrible situation...and I am glad I don't have to vote on their TA.

OK, I'll give you a break. You are right; ALPA is not forcing concessions down ACA's throat, they reserved that for PSA, ALG and PDT. Now what is ALPA doing to prevent concessions at ACA?ALPA is using its "resources" to recommend that ACA pilots accept the TA. ACA has no real "predicament" of its own. United has a predicament, and ACA has no reason to join in it. Neither do AWAC or SKYW.

I agree that ALPA did not suggest concessions; management did that. ALPA's role should be to resist concessions, expecially those that are not economically justified. Is ALPA doing that anywhere? The answer is NO. Is ALPA resisting concessions at ANY regional carrier that has been "asked" by management? Again the answer is NO. Why not?

Will ACA really loose its flying to Mesa if they don't make concessions? Who cares what the "Bain Group" says? Are you going to give conessions if the Bain Group tells you that you will lose all your flying to SKYW or Commutair or Gulfstream if you don't? How come you can't figure out who the Bain Group really is and why don't you understand that they are PAID to generate the fear strategy that everyone is rushing to accept?

Yes, there is a horrible situation at United, but there is no horrible situation at any of the so-called United Express carriers. The fact is that if every pilot at every UAX affiliate voted to FLY FOR FREE, it would not change United's horrible situation.

If you were to add up the entire pilot payroll at every United Express carrier, before any of these concessions, would it equal in dollars the concessions made by the UAL pilots alone? Why don't you do that and see for yourself?

Fortunately my airline is negotiating for increases (contrary to what you said above)...not being led down a path like lemmings, as you say. There is no harming of seniority as you say either...and our situation has nothing to do with ALPA. Both the FTA as well as the flying opportunities we've secured over at Commutair and Skywest for our furloughed pilots.

Yes, you're negotiating for increases. Let's see how many increases you get after every regional carrier represented by ALPA has taken concessions. Let me know please which of the "resources and tools" ALPA gives you to get the increases you want if the face of the resources and tools it is giving to the concessionary syndrome and its tacit approval of the Bain Group.

The harming of regional pilot seniority comes as a result of the ALPA's Jets for Jobs protocols. You have not harmed seniority at Commutair or Skywest, merely because they did not accept what you wanted. Many of your members were writing, in these forums, how they expected to take Captain slots at SKYW due to its code share agreement with CAL in IAH. Im glad you didn't get that, for it is wrong. You should not get and you are not entitled to any position at either airline, unless it is a vacancy that is unfilled by pilots on the seniority list of that airline who have first had the chance to bid for the vacancy.

When the vacancies are unfilled or new pilots have to be hired, then I am overjoyed that you achieved preferential hiring for your furloughed pilots at both of those airlines. Kudos to you for doing that, but shame (on at least some of you) for expecting or wanting "super seniority".

As for your FTA I'll reserve comment. It's a different subject and I'm certain you wouldn't want to know what I think of that.

If you think that's a long drawn out esoteric response, so be it. The uninitiated do need to be initiated and somebody has to try. I'm sorry if you find what I wirite difficult to understand and hope that others don't. It is my true intent to be exoteric rather that esoteric for I have grown weary of the "inner circle" at National. If you happen to be in that inner circle you should know that I have no regrets in exposing it for what it is. Regretably, I doubt I'll have much impact.

I won't lambaste you for supporting your MEC but I will remind you that it really isn't your MEC, it's CAL's MEC. Again, that's a different topic.

Like you, I too support the ACA pilots (not the Bain Group) which is precisely why I don't think they should make concessions. The same applies to the Skywest pilots. In my opinion, it is unnecessary and it will neither make or break their affiliation with United one way or the other..

The concessions proposed in the TAs at those two carriers will do two things only: 1) Ensure that ACA and SKYW pilots are paid less, and 2) Help to undermine the contracts and negotiations at other regional airlines. In my opinion that is foolish and I can only hope that both TA's will be rejected solidly. Unfortunately, I'm not optimistic that will happen.