Skywest, Republic, and ALPA

[rfa]

So arguably the two biggest regionals now, Skywest and Republic, have either no Union at all (Skypest) or a worthless union (Repuke-lic). It seems as maybe the majors have decided not to do as much business with the stronger regionals, and have slowly given more flying to these two scumbag outfits.
Maybe we (ALPA regionals) are our own worst enemy by becoming too strong?

Uhmm, I don't follow much of this board, and do not know too much about the working conditions at other regionals - including Republic. Still, correct me if I am wrong, but SKW seems to be at the top of the pyramid (or at least close to it) when it comes to working conditions. What do you mean by "stronger regionals" by the way? Mesa? PSA? AW? Colgan? GJ?

 

[sweptback]

That's all warm and fuzzy but how many Skywest pilots are on the FAA ARC deciding on new rest regulations?

There's not a SkyWest pilot to be found, but there is an ASA pilot on the ARC. Funny how ASA pilots continue to do the heavy lifting for the SkyWest pilots...

 

[Dubya]

There's not a SkyWest pilot to be found, but there is an ASA pilot on the ARC. Funny how ASA pilots continue to do the heavy lifting for the SkyWest pilots...

Funny how ASA was a horrible place to work (directly from the mouths of ASA pilots) until Skywest took over. Funny how all that happened under the professional watch of ALPA and it's ASA representatives.

This isn't the Chicago meat packing industry in 1920. ALPA is what is broken. Fix it, then come back without your giant excuse/justification book.

W

 

[JoeMerchant]

Funny how ASA was a horrible place to work (directly from the mouths of ASA pilots) until Skywest took over. Funny how all that happened under the professional watch of ALPA and it's ASA representatives.
W

That's very true...Sweptback is one of our ALPA "insiders"....The fact is, Skywest has done more to save ASA than ALPA has....If anyone doubts that fact, they can look at Comair to see how ALPA has done vs. how Skywest has done....There is no comparison.

ALPA could not guarantee us a certain percentage of Atlanta Delta flying....ALPA refused at one time to even allow ASA and CMR pilots to negotiate for Delta flying...Jerry is the one that secured this flying....

 

[sweptback]

That's very true...Sweptback is one of our ALPA "insiders"....

Just a line pilot! But I do read the Fastread emails and keep in touch with what is going on. Actually, I guess that does make me an insider, after all it's more than most do to stay current in their industry.

ALPA could not guarantee us a certain percentage of Atlanta Delta flying....ALPA refused at one time to even allow ASA and CMR pilots to negotiate for Delta flying...Jerry is the one that secured this flying....

You seem to confuse ALPA's role. Last I checked, a union doesn't make business decisions. In fact, if the union was truly running this company like you want them to, then something is horribly out of whack.

 

[JoeMerchant]

You seem to confuse ALPA's role. Last I checked, a union doesn't make business decisions. In fact, if the union was truly running this company like you want them to, then something is horribly out of whack.

Ahhh yes...The ALPA talking point with regards to regional job protection.

Either way, you can't win this debate....There are two ways to go about refuting this point:

1. "ALPA doesn't make business decisions": If that is true, then what is section 1 of the contract about? What if Delta wants to make a "business decision" to run 737s at ASA or CMR?

2. If your above point is true, then it gives the ALPA cheerleaders even less to cheer about....In essence, you are admitting that Jerry will make the business decisions regarding ASA....Is it really smart to then pi$$ off the person who can make those decisions? After all, as you point out, ALPA won't make those decisions....Jerry will.

You help make my point about how impotent ALPA really is....Thank you....

It's not me that is confused about what ALPA can and cannot do....I am well aware of the fact that they can't do much....

 

[JoeMerchant]

You are creating a downward pressure on other regional airline pilot pay.

This is incorrect....Most downward pressure on regional airline pay comes from fellow ALPA pilots at BOTH the regional and major level...

Every MEC will do what is best for their pilots. And they should. Your example of fences around 747s and 777s is exactly the point I try to make to people when they bring up conflict of interest. There is no conflict of interest because EVERY MEC will do what is best for their pilots, whether they are regional pilots or 747/777 pilots.

That IS a conflict of interest and is what pits one group against another...That builds walls...not bridges...You aren't winning any points for ALPA.....

I worked for a non union company. And the vast majority of us were professional. As a matter of fact, most pilots are professional.

When ALPA cheerleaders like Rez. accuse Skywest pilots of not being professional because they aren't ALPA....don't be surprised if Skywest pilots think even less of ALPA....You can't insult people like Rez does and then expect them to agree with you or want to join with you....You ALPA cheerleaders just can't seem to grasp that very simple concept....

Why does he think ALPA is broken beyond repair? I mean, we put men on the moon right? Can we not fix whatever ails ALPA? Sounds like a weak cop out if you ask me. This guy seems talented enough to become a leader at the Teamsters. Why couldn't he put his effort in helping the only union of pilots for pilots? Anyways, ALPA does not have any conflicts of interests. Every MEC will do what is best for themselves regardless of what any other MEC does. MECs just pool their resources to help the profession. This is thee biggest misconception of ALPA out there. Its a bottom up organization. Its run by line pilots that direct the president what to do. Not the other way around.

Dan B. did try as did many others...Every member of the RJDC leadership at both ASA and CMR were former ALPA MEC officers, MEC members, or committee members. Former ALPA EVP Cress Bernard had to sue ALPA to fairly represent him in the Alaska/Jet America merger. The two senior members of the ASA MEC admit "off the record" that RJDC helped us here at ASA....It is broken for the very reason you said above....

"Every MEC will do what is best for their pilots. And they should"


That won't build unity...Without unity...ALPA cannot be fixed.....

 

[Tarzan]

J
You seem to confuse ALPA's role. Last I checked, a union doesn't make business decisions. In fact, if the union was truly running this company like you want them to, then something is horribly out of whack.

Fail! They dictate a huge amount of business choices a company makes. The threat of one also drives choices a company makes. You've missed the mark dramatically on that one, Sir.

 

[bmpilot2003]

When ALPA cheerleaders like Rez. accuse Skywest pilots of not being professional because they aren't ALPA....don't be surprised if Skywest pilots think even less of ALPA....You can't insult people like Rez does and then expect them to agree with you or want to join with you....You ALPA cheerleaders just can't seem to grasp that very simple concept....

This could not be more true in regards to the last union drive.

 

[sweptback]

1. "ALPA doesn't make business decisions": If that is true, then what is section 1 of the contract about? What if Delta wants to make a "business decision" to run 737s at ASA or CMR?

Any way I answer this you're going to twist my words and fit them to your agenda, but for the sake of argument, consider a collective bargaining agreement as a check and balance upon management greed.

Delta can still make that decision to run narrowbodies at the regionals, but they will have to placate their pilots first. If the pilots believe that outsourcing that flying is beneficial to both Delta and the pilot group, they will cut a deal.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Any way I answer this you're going to twist my words and fit them to your agenda, but for the sake of argument, consider a collective bargaining agreement as a check and balance upon management greed.

Delta can still make that decision to run narrowbodies at the regionals, but they will have to placate their pilots first. If the pilots believe that outsourcing that flying is beneficial to both Delta and the pilot group, they will cut a deal.

How does that differ from what I said about ALPA and ASA/CMR securing Delta flying? I said:

"ALPA could not guarantee us a certain percentage of Atlanta Delta flying....ALPA refused at one time to even allow ASA and CMR pilots to negotiate for Delta flying...Jerry is the one that secured this flying.... "

You responded by saying that I was confused about what ALPA can do, and that was a management decision...Sounds like you are doing the ALPA two step....Wouldn't the same apply to securing a percentage of Delta flying, or brand scope?

I'm not "twisting" your words....I'm holding you and the other ALPA cheerleaders accountable for your claims....Something ALPA cheerleaders absolutely hate.....

By the way, what exactly do you think my "agenda" is? Just curious......

 

[BrickTop]

ALPA couldn't negotiate their way out a paper bag with a machete and a book of matches.

 

[JoeMerchant]

ALPA couldn't negotiate their way out a paper bag with a machete and a book of matches.

That's not true...They would use the machete to cut their nose to spite their face....Then they would burn up as they use the matches to burn their way out of the bag...

 

[Nevets]

I have 4 letters for you ALPA hounds..... M E S A (sucks despite ALPA representation)

And imagine how much worse JO would make it for their pilots if ALPA wasn't there!

Skywest does not need a union. I hear a lot of "wait till MGT needs something or times get rough. Then the hammer will come down on you." Has this happened in the last what, 35 years at SKYW? Friends of mine have become fairly senior at SKYW and I have seen mind boggling support for pilots from their MGT. Where other carriers would have fired their employees and let the union get the jobs back SKYW has decided to stand behind the pilot. The way the company treats them is far above par. How they are treated by crew scheduling is far better than any other regional I know of. I can't speak for the futute. As for now, Skywest does not need a union.

Skywest fires many pilots without their pilots having the due process that a union recognized by the NMB. They just don't announce it to their employees every time some pilots is given a pink slip. I have friends there that have not been treated fairly, one was even a long time checkairman. Who knows what they felt "fair" was. But they didn't have any recourse to prove the unfairness. It was either put up or shut up. I can't speak for the futute. As for now, I think Skywest does need a union. If for at least to participate in the furtherance of their profession and acknowledge the safety improvements gained by unions in our profession.

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it an ALPA carrier's mishap that is directly affecting this change in training rules?

There will always be mishaps because we are human. ALPA has always been there so that the rules that go into effect because of them, make sense.

Really, when was the last time you ever talked to your CEO? I've called mine on many occasions and had very constuctive talks with him. I also see him in my jumpseat regularly. to say I don't have a voice in my career is extremely ignorant. Any problem most pilots have is quickly remedied and they normally (except for nondisclosure agreements) communicate pretty well with us on current company events. ALPA isn't right for skywest, and thry are a good company.

Maybe APLA is the problem, representing a mainline group and a group that is taking the jobs of the mainline group...if you look up conflict of interest in the dictionary it gives this example.

I had a constructive talk with your CEO as well. Yes, he made it clear to me and others how much you don't have a voice in your Skywest career, much less your profession as a whole.

I have never heard of Skywest putting out memos every time someone is disciplined, fired, reprimanded, counseled, etc. It only comes out from public court records. At union carriers we all know the grievances and their outcomes.

Uhmm, I don't follow much of this board, and do not know too much about the working conditions at other regionals - including Republic. Still, correct me if I am wrong, but SKW seems to be at the top of the pyramid (or at least close to it) when it comes to working conditions. What do you mean by "stronger regionals" by the way? Mesa? PSA? AW? Colgan? GJ?

How does Skywest decide what to pay their pilots? How do they decide what work rules their pilots work under?

Funny how ASA was a horrible place to work (directly from the mouths of ASA pilots) until Skywest took over. Funny how all that happened under the professional watch of ALPA and it's ASA representatives.

This isn't the Chicago meat packing industry in 1920. ALPA is what is broken. Fix it, then come back without your giant excuse/justification book.

W

That's because Skywest has good management in that they know how to run a good operation. The pilots can only do so much from the flight deck.

Ahhh yes...The ALPA talking point with regards to regional job protection.

Either way, you can't win this debate....There are two ways to go about refuting this point:

1. "ALPA doesn't make business decisions": If that is true, then what is section 1 of the contract about? What if Delta wants to make a "business decision" to run 737s at ASA or CMR?

2. If your above point is true, then it gives the ALPA cheerleaders even less to cheer about....In essence, you are admitting that Jerry will make the business decisions regarding ASA....Is it really smart to then pi$$ off the person who can make those decisions? After all, as you point out, ALPA won't make those decisions....Jerry will.

You help make my point about how impotent ALPA really is....Thank you....

It's not me that is confused about what ALPA can and cannot do....I am well aware of the fact that they can't do much....

You are getting two things mixed up. Operationally, management runs the company however competently it can. Pilots can do as much as they can but ultimately, its up to management to put the other pieces of the pie to together to make an airline run efficiently. ALPA has very little say in the operation of the airline. How management decides to make an ontime airline is management's rights.

By the way, DAL wants to run 737 at ASA, they can. Nothing stops them from giving DAL pilots whatever they would trade for that. And you are right, ALPA can only do what its empowered to defend in their contract or can lobby for in congress, or the executive branch, or what they can successfully argue before a judge/jury. Everything else, is by definition, management's rights.

This is incorrect....Most downward pressure on regional airline pay comes from fellow ALPA pilots at BOTH the regional and major level...

Well it was JA that put downward pressure on XJT using SKW pilot's total compensation, not ASA's.

That IS a conflict of interest and is what pits one group against another...That builds walls...not bridges...You aren't winning any points for ALPA.....

I guess we disagree in what is a conflict of interest. Personally, if the CAL MEC wants to scope in all jet flying, that is good for all pilots. My point is that MECs will do what is best for their pilot that doesn't always mean that they are different.

Dan B. did try as did many others...Every member of the RJDC leadership at both ASA and CMR were former ALPA MEC officers, MEC members, or committee members. Former ALPA EVP Cress Bernard had to sue ALPA to fairly represent him in the Alaska/Jet America merger. The two senior members of the ASA MEC admit "off the record" that RJDC helped us here at ASA....It is broken for the very reason you said above....

"Every MEC will do what is best for their pilots. And they should"


That won't build unity...Without unity...ALPA cannot be fixed.....

I don't know who Dan is. But seems as though you are more influential from the inside rather than by quitting.

There is unity in every MEC doing what is best for their pilots. There will always be differences at the fringes of issues. But ultimately, policy is only made when there is enough unity for it.

Fail! They dictate a huge amount of business choices a company makes. The threat of one also drives choices a company makes. You've missed the mark dramatically on that one, Sir.

The company will do whatever they think its best for the shareholders. A contract is a two way street. The DAL/NWA merger is an example of that. Their managements said they wanted an agreement on SLI before the merger. The pilots couldn't come to an agreement so the deal was off. Management came back and said we are going to merge anyways. This sort of stuff happens all the time. And most of the time, the company comes to an agreement with the union. Its not like innovation, expansion, change in business model, mergers, acquisitions stop because there is a union in the house.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Fail! They dictate a huge amount of business choices a company makes. The threat of one also drives choices a company makes. You've missed the mark dramatically on that one, Sir.

Negative.........

pilots and labor are stakeholders in a company... how dare a union force a company to consider the stakeholders.... the reason why companies don't care about labor is because they are not legally obligated to..... Companies only care about shareholders.... that means labor is to be disposable and recycled.... the investors don't care about labor.

Everyone on here claiming that OO treats them fair is right... and they get to believe what they want....

Skywest is doing so to keep ALPA off the property. They aren't doing it because Jerry has corporate social responsibilites....

Don't worry guys.... ALPA will lobby on the 2009 pilot act for you, talk to Babbitt for you and work the rest/duty rules for you..... All you have to do is fly around in your slick ties.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

This could not be more true in regards to the last union drive.

The Skywest pilots weren't ready for ALPA last drive. ALPA should have stood down.... if a moniker on a message board stops one from making a professional decision.........

Was voting ALPA down a feel good decision? Emotional? The reasoning for representation is clear.


Maybe the OO pilots need to stop being treated professionally at the airport. But that won't happen... we'll still continue to help you with your jumpseat problems, smile and acknowledge you... and you'll think you are liked and maybe even respected.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Negative.........

pilots and labor are stakeholders in a company... how dare a union force a company to consider the stakeholders.... the reason why companies don't care about labor is because they are not legally obligated to..... Companies only care about shareholders.... that means labor is to be disposable and recycled.... the investors don't care about labor.

The pilots and labor are stakeholders...We need our company to make money and survive...Otherwise we are screwed....We compete with our fellow "union brothers" based on cost because your beloved ALPA screwed the pooch....Now us stakeholders need to look out for ourselves as ALPA clearly isn't...

 

[JoeMerchant]

The Skywest pilots weren't ready for ALPA last drive. ALPA should have stood down.... if a moniker on a message board stops one from making a professional decision.........

The Skywest pilots will never be ready for ALPA...In fact, the majority of ASA pilots would vote ALPA off the property today...

Maybe the OO pilots need to stop being treated professionally at the airport. But that won't happen... we'll still continue to help you with your jumpseat problems, smile and acknowledge you... and you'll think you are liked and maybe even respected.....

There you have it folks....The king of ALPA cheerleaders is now threatening Skywest pilots with the jumpseat....Simply because they don't believe in his snake oil sales job.....Rez....If you ALPA folks actually carry thru on this threat, I promise that it will get really ugly....You will see a jumpseat war that you aren't going to like....

The patience of the average ASA pilot towards ALPA is getting thin....push it a little further and you really aren't going to like the result....I and many of my ASA colleagues think of the Skywest pilots as brothers....something you ALPA cheerleaders simply can't grasp....

The Skywest pilots are liked and respected by many of us...You on the other hand...not so much.....GFY!

 

[JoeMerchant]

Well it was JA that put downward pressure on XJT using SKW pilot's total compensation, not ASA's.

Mesa, PNCL, and mainline pay put downward pressure on ASA....All represented by ALPA.....

I guess we disagree in what is a conflict of interest. Personally, if the CAL MEC wants to scope in all jet flying, that is good for all pilots. My point is that MECs will do what is best for their pilot that doesn't always mean that they are different.

This is the heart of the disagreement and the reason ALPA won't succeed at the established regionals unless they change their tune.....About 30% of regional pilots (higher at the ASA/CMRs) have made a career out of the regionals....ALPA will never be supported by those pilots if that is the position of ALPA....If you don't win the hearts of the senior pilots at the regionals, then ALPA will never succeed at the regional level....

I don't know who Dan is. But seems as though you are more influential from the inside rather than by quitting.

Of course you don't know Dan B....You are a new guy who doesn't appreciate the history of how we got into this mess...Many of us have been working on this problem long before you got here....ASA and CMR pilots first warned ALPA of this mess 15 years ago...They ignored it...

There is unity in every MEC doing what is best for their pilots. There will always be differences at the fringes of issues. But ultimately, policy is only made when there is enough unity for it.

BS! Senior vs. Junior, Pension vs. pay, scope, age 60.....there is very little unity....Only an idiot or someone who is trying to protect ALPA would say anything else...Which are you?

 

[Nevets]

Mesa, PNCL, and mainline pay put downward pressure on ASA....All represented by ALPA.....

And Skywest pilots watch on the sidelines as they aren't able to try to help in this issue. They are given whatever Skywest management decides is comparable to others.

This is the heart of the disagreement and the reason ALPA won't succeed at the established regionals unless they change their tune.....About 30% of regional pilots (higher at the ASA/CMRs) have made a career out of the regionals....ALPA will never be supported by those pilots if that is the position of ALPA....If you don't win the hearts of the senior pilots at the regionals, then ALPA will never succeed at the regional level....

I don't see that as a problem. Whats the difference of making a career in at regional airline flying an RJ versus flying that same aircraft for the actual brand on the tail?

Of course you don't know Dan B....You are a new guy who doesn't appreciate the history of how we got into this mess...Many of us have been working on this problem long before you got here....ASA and CMR pilots first warned ALPA of this mess 15 years ago...They ignored it...

How do I not appreciate the history? Isn't I who always points out that we (especially those who don't contribute to it) take for granted what ALPA has done for the safety of our profession? That is THEE legacy of ALPA.

BS! Senior vs. Junior, Pension vs. pay, scope, age 60.....there is very little unity....Only an idiot or someone who is trying to protect ALPA would say anything else...Which are you?

Again, maybe just a disagreement in the definition of a word. And maybe you are right. What I'm saying is that at some level there has to be enough unity to make policy such as scope, age 60, etc. Or maybe its just the lack of interest of pilots to let their elective leaders know what unifies them? You know, apathy. Either way, it took unity to at some level to change or create any policy. And it can be changed again with further unity. Every union is an a state of dynamic unity as circumstances change. I just happen to beleive that ALPA leadership is working towards enhancing unity. Like I said, maybe you are right. I'm not afraid to say it because if I'm wrong, I'd like to know so I can work at making it right/better rather than resign/quit/pout/complain/etc.