Skywest, Republic, and ALPA

[PCL_128]

Really, when was the last time you ever talked to your CEO?

Frequently.

I've called mine on many occasions and had very constuctive talks with him. I also see him in my jumpseat regularly. to say I don't have a voice in my career is extremely ignorant.

Skywest isn't the only thing affecting your career. The flight/duty time ARC in DC is going to significantly affect your career. You don't have a voice there. Cabotage will have a huge affect on your career. You don't have a voice in DC or on the international stage for that, either. Congress is currently debating new training, background check, and minimum hiring guidelines for pilots. Where's your voice there?

There's a hell of a lot more to an air line pilot's career than what happens within his own company. Time to pull your head out of the sand and join the rest of us in the fight for our profession.

In fact, the majority of ASA pilots would vote ALPA off the property today...

In that case, why aren't your pushing for a representational election, Joey? If it's so certain, then get off your ass and make democracy work for you! But of course, the real truth is that you're just a little whiner in the extreme minority that couldn't survive in the political process, so you just attack ALPA to make yourself feel better.

Of course you don't know Dan B....

I know him.....unfortunately. One of the sleaziest people I have ever had the displeasure of meeting. I was about to file Article VIII charges against him for his attempts to interfere with our organizing drive at AirTran, but he resigned his ALPA membership a few days before I could file. I feel sorry for the IBT guys that have to deal with him now.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I don't see that as a problem. Whats the difference of making a career in at regional airline flying an RJ versus flying that same aircraft for the actual brand on the tail?

I'm going to limit our discussion to this issue, because I actually believe you want a solution....The ASA and CMR pilots, including myself, tried this in 2001....We filed a PID request to do this very thing with ALPA/DALPA...It was denied because the fact of the matter is that there is a double standard within ALPA....Little airplanes are beneath those who have become "real airline pilots".....

I have no problem with what you said....I think it should be one seniority list from Saab to 747....but it isn't me who is the problem....

Now, that being said, can a mainline pilot bump me out of my RJ position in a single list? That is another problem we have.....

Again, I honestly believe you want a solution, but I also think you don't fully appreciate the position of the typical 15+ year regional pilot who has been trying to achieve a solution while ALPA has fought the solution....

 

[JoeMerchant]

In that case, why aren't your pushing for a representational election, Joey? If it's so certain, then get off your ass and make democracy work for you! But of course, the real truth is that you're just a little whiner in the extreme minority that couldn't survive in the political process, so you just attack ALPA to make yourself feel better.

As you know, it is very difficult to vote a union off the property...That being said, there is a group that is getting ready to run who aren't big ALPA fans...and I'm not one of them....

I know him.....unfortunately. One of the sleaziest people I have ever had the displeasure of meeting. I was about to file Article VIII charges against him for his attempts to interfere with our organizing drive at AirTran, but he resigned his ALPA membership a few days before I could file. I feel sorry for the IBT guys that have to deal with him now.

Ahhh yes....The "Article VIII" threat...I have been threatened with that for years now....yet none of you have the stones to follow thru....Please somebody....file article VIII against me.....It's an empty threat, and frankly none of care if you file article VIII chargers...

 

[Digger Dude]

Who is this Rez Retard.

 

[PCL_128]

I'm going to limit our discussion to this issue, because I actually believe you want a solution....The ASA and CMR pilots, including myself, tried this in 2001....We filed a PID request to do this very thing with ALPA/DALPA...It was denied because the fact of the matter is that there is a double standard within ALPA....Little airplanes are beneath those who have become "real airline pilots".....

No, it was denied because the companies weren't being merged, something required by ALPA Merger Policy. You can't force a merger when your contracts don't require it.

As you know, it is very difficult to vote a union off the property...

As someone who recently did it, I can tell you that that's certainly not the case. I got it done in about six months. Pretty simple, really. All you need is just a tad bit of political acumen, Joey. I guess that rules you out.

That being said, there is a group that is getting ready to run who aren't big ALPA fans...and I'm not one of them....

Ahh, that old trick again. If I remember correctly, we called a similar group the "Jackson 5" last go-around in '06. I'm sure the results will be similar again.

 

[JoeMerchant]

No, it was denied because the companies weren't being merged, something required by ALPA Merger Policy. You can't force a merger when your contracts don't require it.

The PID could have been approved without the companies being merged....You know that...ALPA merger policy does not require the companies being merged....You can have a single list with seperate certificates...and you know it....Just another excuse....

As someone who recently did it, I can tell you that that's certainly not the case. I got it done in about six months. Pretty simple, really. All you need is just a tad bit of political acumen, Joey. I guess that rules you out.

You changed union reps..That is easier than flat out decertification....You will see a change of unions here at ASA....Decertification is tougher than changing unions...Do some research...

Ahh, that old trick again. If I remember correctly, we called a similar group the "Jackson 5" last go-around in '06. I'm sure the results will be similar again.

Actually, this group has nothing to do with me....They are taking the ball and running with it on their own....I have no connection.....

 

[Nevets]

I'm going to limit our discussion to this issue, because I actually believe you want a solution....The ASA and CMR pilots, including myself, tried this in 2001....We filed a PID request to do this very thing with ALPA/DALPA...It was denied because the fact of the matter is that there is a double standard within ALPA....Little airplanes are beneath those who have become "real airline pilots".....

I have no problem with what you said....I think it should be one seniority list from Saab to 747....but it isn't me who is the problem....

Now, that being said, can a mainline pilot bump me out of my RJ position in a single list? That is another problem we have.....

Again, I honestly believe you want a solution, but I also think you don't fully appreciate the position of the typical 15+ year regional pilot who has been trying to achieve a solution while ALPA has fought the solution....

Of course I want a solution to problems. That is why I get involved rather than just complain and lament.

I think that ALPA has turned the corner on this issue with 20/20 hindsight. Its not hard to see how this has been a detriment to our profession. But since this is a Skywest Republic ALPA thread, how does Skywest or even Republic help ALPA in this issue?

By the way, I don't think that a mainline pilot should be able to bid an onto an RJ unless there was a vacancy. That would be my solution to that.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Of course I want a solution to problems. That is why I get involved rather than just complain and lament.

I and others who "complain and lament" have been involved....probably before you got to this game....The first ASA and CMR pilots warned of this problem 15 years ago....It was ignored by ALPA and the mainline elitists....Sorry if we don't expect much to change.....but we don't see much change....

I think that ALPA has turned the corner on this issue with 20/20 hindsight. Its not hard to see how this has been a detriment to our profession. But since this is a Skywest Republic ALPA thread, how does Skywest or even Republic help ALPA in this issue?

It's not Skywest nor Republic's job to help ALPA in this issue...It's ALPA's job to help if they are going to claim that they are necessary...Can't you see that...It is YOU who is selling ALPA...The burden of proof is on ALPA, and they have failed up until this point...Even you admit that....ALPA has to earn it's respect and job....It hasn't as of yet....

By the way, I don't think that a mainline pilot should be able to bid an onto an RJ unless there was a vacancy. That would be my solution to that.

But should that mainline pilot come in senior to me if there is a vacancy?

 

[Positive Rate]

Maybe APLA is the problem, representing a mainline group and a group that is taking the jobs of the mainline group...if you look up conflict of interest in the dictionary it gives this example.

Unfortunately, the group isnt taking the job...it was given by mainline...seems as though the mainline folks have tunnel vision of only flying the "big" stuff and not trying to make a business model work...If the company wants to fly smaller birds...the mainline guys should...to keep the power of a pilot group....but "its not worth it to them".....

I was in a jumpseat...and that was the impression given to me.....basically, they have no clue at mainline of whats going on at the regional level, or how the regionals got this way....in my eyes, they are to stubborn and blind to a big picture....so they blame the regionals for taking "their" flying when it seems its them as a pilot group(their MEC) gave it away.....

I hope they wake up and stop trying to stop it by scope...but do the flying themselves...after all they have plenty on furlough that are very capable.

 

[Nevets]

I and others who "complain and lament" have been involved....probably before you got to this game....The first ASA and CMR pilots warned of this problem 15 years ago....It was ignored by ALPA and the mainline elitists....Sorry if we don't expect much to change.....but we don't see much change....

I'm glad our founding fathers didn't have the attitude you have. If its worth doing, its going to take a lot of hard work for a long time to start to see change. I think we are starting to see the hints of change already. And don't make such a big deal about my inexperience. I'm on your side on this. We just disagree on how and who can fix it.

It's not Skywest nor Republic's job to help ALPA in this issue...It's ALPA's job to help if they are going to claim that they are necessary...Can't you see that...It is YOU who is selling ALPA...The burden of proof is on ALPA, and they have failed up until this point...Even you admit that....ALPA has to earn it's respect and job....It hasn't as of yet....

I feel that its our whole profession's job to fix this regardless of who's fault it was to begin with. We wont get anywhere if we continue to just look to put blame on someone. Its done and I think that its behind us, as far as those who were to "blame." That is how I'm trying to "sell" ALPA. We need to bring everyone together, whether it be ALPA, APA, etc (I just happen to be ALPA but I would feel the same if I was a member of another pilot union) so that we can continue to fix this. How can Skywest, jetBlue, Allegiant, and even RAH pilots since they aren't even part of CAPA, do ANYTHING without having a voice? That was the point of my comment.

But should that mainline pilot come in senior to me if there is a vacancy?

Depends on where that pilot would fall in an integrated seniority list.

 

[duck_killer]

Translation: "F-ck the profession, what's in it for me?"

Coming from the guy that paid to be a first officer. Good one.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Unfortunately, the group isnt taking the job...it was given by mainline...seems as though the mainline folks have tunnel vision of only flying the "big" stuff and not trying to make a business model work...If the company wants to fly smaller birds...the mainline guys should...to keep the power of a pilot group....but "its not worth it to them".....

I was in a jumpseat...and that was the impression given to me.....basically, they have no clue at mainline of whats going on at the regional level, or how the regionals got this way....in my eyes, they are to stubborn and blind to a big picture....so they blame the regionals for taking "their" flying when it seems its them as a pilot group(their MEC) gave it away.....

I hope they wake up and stop trying to stop it by scope...but do the flying themselves...after all they have plenty on furlough that are very capable.

Would it be all right if mainline took their scope back? If they did I think regional pilots should have solid protections.... or opportunities... but if mainline gave it away... is it fair to get it back?



And this arguement about regionals and legacy both represented by ALPA as a conflict..... would it be better if the regionals were not? Would not being in the same union create more unity and harmonious relations between the labor groups?

 

[PCL_128]

The PID could have been approved without the companies being merged....You know that...ALPA merger policy does not require the companies being merged....You can have a single list with seperate certificates...and you know it....Just another excuse....

You can't have an integration when you don't have contract language that requires it. Neither Delta nor ASA had contract language that required an integration, and Delta had no intention of integrating the operations. They were always intended to be operated separately, and that's exactly with they did. Without an integration taking place, the PID was invalid, and ALPA Merger Policy was not applicable. But you know all that.

You changed union reps..That is easier than flat out decertification....

Actually, it's much harder. Convincing 50% of the pilots to vote for something is an easy task. Convincing over 50% of the independent union's leadership to dissolve the independent and merge into a national union is tough. People in leadership positions don't like change.

You will see a change of unions here at ASA....Decertification is tougher than changing unions...Do some research...

Joey, I'm an organizer. I don't need to "do some research," because I'm quite familiar with the rules. Decertification is an easy task if you truly have the pilots behind you. The truth is, you just don't.

Actually, this group has nothing to do with me....They are taking the ball and running with it on their own....I have no connection.....

That's what you said last time. Never mind the fact that your older girlfriend was leading the pack.

 

[Positive Rate]

Would it be all right if mainline took their scope back? If they did I think regional pilots should have solid protections.... or opportunities... but if mainline gave it away... is it fair to get it back?



And this arguement about regionals and legacy both represented by ALPA as a conflict..... would it be better if the regionals were not? Would not being in the same union create more unity and harmonious relations between the labor groups?

Is it "taking it back"? or just negotiating a new contract with there own company...After all, all regionals are sub contracts, and the contracts have due dates...whether we like it or not as a regional airline, our time is gonna run a course of some sort...unfortunately for us. So if they do "take it back" sure would be nice to have a spot over there...but again, its our own problem we are subcontracted with a due date...


Yes, I think the regionals should have there own union "RALPA" or something...I dont like the conflict of interest there. Thats just me though.

 

[BigLebowski]

Hey guys...keep it up. This sort of talk is exactly why the union vote failed so miserably at SkyW.

Next lets start with the "Well if you don't vote for ALPA you'll never get hired at a major."

 

[Nevets]

Yes, I think the regionals should have there own union "RALPA" or something...I dont like the conflict of interest there. Thats just me though.

No regional MEC is told what to do by mainline MECs. If mainline MECs are able to scope back their flying, good for them. We should all support that regardless of whether you work for a regional or mainline.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Babbitt, the FAA Admin, this week addressed ALPA's Safety seminar. Skywest pilots could've been there..... they choose not to.....

 

[Skywest Pylot]

Babbitt, the FAA Admin, this week addressed ALPA's Safety seminar. Skywest pilots could've been there..... they choose not to.....

SAPA was too busy chillin with Jerry on his housboat.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

SAPA was too busy chillin with Jerry on his housboat.

Meanwhile the Air Line Pilot profession is in a lifeboat... we are all trying to survive... bailing out seawater, making fresh water, fishing for food...

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'm glad our founding fathers didn't have the attitude you have. If its worth doing, its going to take a lot of hard work for a long time to start to see change. I think we are starting to see the hints of change already. And don't make such a big deal about my inexperience. I'm on your side on this. We just disagree on how and who can fix it.

1. I believe the founding fathers are spinning in their grave based on where this country is headed...but that is an issue for another thread.

2. My attitude is based on the fact that I am looking out for what is best for ASA....not what is best for you, mainline pilots, or the "profession". I think that any solution now will have "collatoral damage" including many regional pilots.

3. I'm not sure we are on the same side.

I feel that its our whole profession's job to fix this regardless of who's fault it was to begin with. We wont get anywhere if we continue to just look to put blame on someone. Its done and I think that its behind us, as far as those who were to "blame."

It's my job to do what is best for me...that's what most people are going to do...Any solution that doesn't keep that in mind is doomed to fail...As far as "blame" and getting over the past...you know the saying...Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it....I don't think we have learned from history yet....

That is how I'm trying to "sell" ALPA. We need to bring everyone together, whether it be ALPA, APA, etc (I just happen to be ALPA but I would feel the same if I was a member of another pilot union) so that we can continue to fix this. How can Skywest, jetBlue, Allegiant, and even RAH pilots since they aren't even part of CAPA, do ANYTHING without having a voice? That was the point of my comment.

You shouldn't have to "sell" ALPA...it should sell itself. I will say, you do better than you cohorts (Rez, PCL128, and waveflyer)...There constant attacks on those who disagree, and especially the Skywest pilots, makes it harder to take ALPA seriously.

Depends on where that pilot would fall in an integrated seniority list.

See, now you have lost any support from about 30-40% of regional pilots....Any deal that puts a single mainline pilot senior to a regional pilot on the aircraft we fly, is a deal breaker. You may not agree with that, but that is simply a fact.