SKYWEST Pilots: SAY NO TO ALPA!!

[atrdriver]

What's ALPA going to do? How are the guys at Mesaba doing? I think Duane Worthless described it as "indentured servitude". Is that the help ALPA gave them?

Or how about Comair, Delta, United, or any other carrier that went into BK.

And what do you think would have happened to ANY of these carriers had the pilots NOT been represented by a union? They would have voided the contracts without having to go to court, and there would have been no recourse. As it is there is a legal process, and an unhappy outcome for the union can be appealed. Without a union there is nothing stopping management from doing exactly as they please.

 

[atrdriver]

ALPA pissed in my wheaties every day for the last year! Everyone knows ASA pilots are dropping out like flies. I tried to believe ALPA was going to do something..I was optimistic just like the rest of you ASA guys still holding out for your dream contract...wake up and smell the coffee..When I resigned on the 9th of a previous month..I was the 40th person to have left THAT MONTH. ASA's chief pilots and secretaries told me I'd be an idiot to stay here (at ASA)...Now not everyone of those people leaving are going to SkyWest..but there were 7 in the class ahead, and several in mine, and several who couldn't make it. Thats just in the last 3 weeks worth of classes...just keep watching your pilot group get smaller and smaller over there...then you'll hire just to keep the planes flying, not to grow..Hey I'm not trying to piss anyone off..I'm just saying..ALPA doesn't do crap for you...

No moron, management pissed in your wheaties. ALPA tried it's best to protect you from it, yet all you did was bitch and moan and call them the enemy. You are so blinded by your hate for a bunch of hard working volunteers that you can't see that it is management who has run this airline into the ground.

 

[Bizjet]

If you are saying that the only alternative is either " play dead" or ALPA, then I'd say you're wrong. From what you are saying is there is no way to have a working relationship with management without a CBA, again, I'd say you are wrong. Managment will do only what they have to do to sustain the business, until it becomes a battle. Then it becomes a fight, and, by human nature it becomes a fight they want to win. If you want to negotiate, do it on a local level. If you want to fight then bring in LEC's, MEC's, CNC's, he!! bring in the whole alphabet, but don't expect to have a harmonious relationship with management.

It's like bringing a lawyer with a pre-nup on your first date.

And there is no way ALPA can look after the regionals and the majors with the same intrest, they may say "trust us" but their hands are on your hips.....

You are not unlike spinless whimps at any airline union or nonunion. I guess when JA decided not to negotiate a 70 seat rate you were first in line to praise him and say that he had his fingers crossed when he made that promise. If you came home early from a trip and walked into your bedroom and found your wife in bed with JA you would apologize to him for not knocking first. "Yesser boss man I knew you were only giving her a first class flight physical--I justa hoping that yo physicals are covered by the company insurance! I understand why you are so upset with me because I have not read the employment contract that give you da rite to screw with everything I have. I hope my anti-union postings over on Flight Info make up for my stupidity."

 

[hoover]

HMMM. Doesn't it take 2 or more to communicate.

SWA seems to do a good job and they are union.

Yes it does. But if communication isn't happening in a non-union situation, it sure as hell isn't going to happen if a union is involved.

Another observation I have made during my career is, at the best companies, management and labor have a genuine interest in working together for the betterment of all. Each party may have its own personal agenda, but both sides recognize that it is better to work with the other side, rather than against them. Southwest is a perfect example of that

The worse companies to work for are companies where management and labor put their own interests ahead, rather than alongside, the common agenda of having a successful profitable company.

As far as Skywest goes, I have no idea what it is like there. But it seems to me that it has lasted over 30 years and been very succesfull. It continues to be a desired place to work for many. For 30 years pilots have chosen not to unionize. There must be a reason for that.

One last thought. The main drive for a union seems to be because they have a single pay rate for 50, 70, and 90 seaters. At most we are talking a few bucks an hour. Is that one issue really that big a deal, in the grand scheme of things?

 

[Dubya]

Yes, I believe that SWA would be successful today regardless of who their union was, simply because their management learned long ago that treating employees as their greatest assets is the way to success. A union, regardless of which one, is only an adversary to management if management wants them to be.

It's really hard sitting on the fence with this issue. I think it's an electric fence. Reading all of the rants for one side or the other doesn't help at all. In my eyes it's obvious we need representation at SkyWest...but I look at ALPA and see nothing but problems. What is the union at Southwest..inhouse? Why is it that they are not chastised for not being ALPA? This whole issue stinks like a dead skunk.

W

 

[CFIT]

And what do you think would have happened to ANY of these carriers had the pilots NOT been represented by a union? They would have voided the contracts without having to go to court, and there would have been no recourse. As it is there is a legal process, and an unhappy outcome for the union can be appealed. Without a union there is nothing stopping management from doing exactly as they please.

Same thing happened with a union, so what's your point?

 

[CFIT]

Bizjet,

This thread started about ALPA, usefull or not, leave my family out of this or I will respond in like.

So when somebody comes up with something you don't like you have to go personal, so petty.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

ALPA pissed in my wheaties every day for the last year! Everyone knows ASA pilots are dropping out like flies. I tried to believe ALPA was going to do something..I was optimistic just like the rest of you ASA guys still holding out for your dream contract...wake up and smell the coffee..When I resigned on the 9th of a previous month..I was the 40th person to have left THAT MONTH. ASA's chief pilots and secretaries told me I'd be an idiot to stay here (at ASA)...

Hey junior...as a rookie over at ASA and only 2000 hours, how is it that you have ratings in the ATR and the CL65?

I know you ain't be'in senior enough to be holdin' no upgrade.

So what's the story angry little feller?

 

[ATR Pirate]

There is nothing wrong with representation and we are not getting that now...so I say again...if not ALPA then what. I am all ears.

Doberman..have you ever worked for an ALPA unionized carrier? All of us from ASA have read through your work rules and compared them with ours..Management here actually has a relationship with the pilots here...they don't at ASA..There are so many huge differences here at skywest than ALPA carriers. I thought I was going to cry when I was reading through that stuff, going through skywestonline, and all the other things here because it was so freakin awesome. We have a mix of a ton of different 121 carriers (all alpa)in my class now, and we just can't believe the things we now have at skywest. I'm not opposed to an in house union..but we don't need to take things to a national level. ALPA just can't represent us, Delta, United, etc..and do it fairly to us...What type of representation are you looking for that you can't get here already? If you get ALPA..you're going to build a communication barriar between the pilots and management..and they will eventually hate each other. You may get a slightly nicer contract with ALPA..but industry standard conctract revisions are a minimum of 3 years..its been 7 years since ASA got a new contract...4+ of those years was (IS) in negotiations...ALPA will fight tooth and nail for nickels and dimes, and slowly drive your chances to grow into the ground...

 

[ATR Pirate]

Hey junior...as a rookie over at ASA and only 2000 hours, how is it that you have ratings in the ATR and the CL65?

I know you ain't be'in senior enough to be holdin' no upgrade.

no you're right..they are SIC ratings..and of course i haven't had the chance to upgrade..thats like six years in the making at ASA..you don't have to be a ******************************

 

[ATR Pirate]

No moron, management pissed in your wheaties. ALPA tried it's best to protect you from it, yet all you did was bitch and moan and call them the enemy. You are so blinded by your hate for a bunch of hard working volunteers that you can't see that it is management who has run this airline into the ground.

first off grow up..we don't have to call each other names...but you're right..ASA management pissed in my wheaties too..Here at skywest, there is a great (great means existant) relationship between pilots and management...and i'm not blinded by hate for a hard working bunch of volunteers..i'm sick of a bunch of greedy reps fighting over nickels and dimes...the longer the negotiations go on..the more management and alpa hates each other...what are you guys gonna do? strike? you'd get canned so fast it wouldn't be funny...and please don't think i'm on managements side..i hated management too..they are the worst i've ever seen anywhere..but the difference between skywest and - asa, comair, mesaba, tsa...is great management and no alpa...we're growing...who else is?

 

[Morning Wood]

What are the skywest pilots going to do about bankruptcy laws?
What are Skywest pilots going to do about globlization and brand alliances?

What are SkyWest's pilots going to do that others haven't been able to do? How are SkyWest's pilots going to stop what legacy pilots been unable to stop?

 

[DrewBlows]

One last thought. The main drive for a union seems to be because they have a single pay rate for 50, 70, and 90 seaters. At most we are talking a few bucks an hour. Is that one issue really that big a deal, in the grand scheme of things?

12 year 90 seat Captain at Skywest: $78
12 year 70 seat Captain at Comair: $99

Yeah, that's a couple of bucks.

 

[Lazy8]

The only conceivable reason I could see why SkyWest should vote for ALPA is for protection if ASA pilots strike. If SKYW management made their pilot's fly the ASA routes and the pilots chose not to, then you've simply lost your job. There's no question that any SkyWest pilot flying ASA routes, while ASA is striking, will be placed on the notorious scab list. That is something you do not want to be on.

People keep bringing up the CRJ-900's for 50 seat pay. Folks, with or without ALPA, those payrates will not budge until SkyWest (and their pilots) are darn-well ready to increase them. Everyone bringing this issue up doesn't work at SkyWest. There's is more to your annual income than your hourly wage. Benefits, reward programs, and bonuses are a big part of SkyWest's employee pay. I'd like to hear from another successful regional airline that comes close to their total compensation package.

Rez, you keep bringing up all these global laws/issues that will negatively effect SkyWest and their pilots. If SkyWest management has kept such a strong relationship with their pilot group for 29 years, why would they be totally oblivious to things on the horizon that could hurt their company and it's employees now? ALPA isn't the only association looking out for the industry. Sometimes it's the industry itself.

I think for the most part you all agree SkyWest pilots have it fairly good. They also seem to make very strong positive comments about their QOL/pay here. Is 2% of their paycheck worth additional insurances that they haven't needed for 29 years? Will the presence of ALPA negatively change their employee-management communications? Is the threat of SkyWest pilots being labeled scabs the real motivator to vote yes? Is it inevitable that management will always eventually screw it's employees? Are employees that enjoy their work, management, and pay really just drinking kool-aid because some guy at some other company hates his/her job?

There's alot of pros and cons here. I wish you folks at SkyWest the best. We're all in this together and we all effect the standards of the industry, with or without ALPA. ALPA does not set the industry standard. The pilots, union and non-union, do.

I don't pretend to have all the answers, but I'm sure the rest of you do.

Have a good 'un now!

g

 

[Lazy8]

12 year 90 seat Captain at Skywest: $78
12 year 70 seat Captain at Comair: $99

Yeah, that's a couple of bucks.

And how long does it take to upgrade to Captain at Comair? Guy #1 upgrades to captain at SkyWest on year 3 while Guy #2 sits as FO at Comair for... how long again? It's all relative. And how many people really sit at a regional for 12 years?

If you want to make a Doctor's pay you don't stay a nurse your whole life.... and you probably don't become a pilot. lol

g

 

[thebest]

Ok I have have 121 experience with ALPA and I am happy with our MEC and LEC. I would be very concerned to not have a union, especially in this industry environment. Your MEC or "your ALPA" is what you make of it. You can have a very different opinion of ALPA national. I know I do.

(I do not work for SkyWest or ASA, I'm just offering my opinion on ALPA)

Ya, Delta, United pilots, etc are glad they have alpa too? THEBEST

 

[DrewBlows]

And how long does it take to upgrade to Captain at Comair? Guy #1 upgrades to captain at SkyWest on year 3 while Guy #2 sits as FO at Comair for... how long again? It's all relative. And how many people really sit at a regional for 12 years?

I have no idea how long a 12 year Captain at Comair was a First Officer. Most of the guys I fly with were either never FOs or FOs for a few months. Growth can't continue indefinately.

Second year 70 seat FO at Comair: $41
Second year 90 seat FO at Skywest: $35

It's true that you guys are paid well, but you could do better.

 

[sweptback]

And how long does it take to upgrade to Captain at Comair? Guy #1 upgrades to captain at SkyWest on year 3 while Guy #2 sits as FO at Comair for... how long again? It's all relative. And how many people really sit at a regional for 12 years?

If you want to make a Doctor's pay you don't stay a nurse your whole life.... and you probably don't become a pilot. lol

g

That has absolutely nothing to do with it. Just because upgrades are 24 months now at SkyWest does not mean they will not be at ASA or Eagle levels someday.

This industry is cyclical. SkyWest is at the top of the heap right now, but may or may not be 5 years from now.

 

[ILOVEBEER]

If you're in trouble and fill out an ASAP report, you can't lose your job! Even with an ALPA lawyer you still run the risk of losing your case! And even now if you need a lawyer, SkyWest will provide you one for free!

Completely incorrect. Filling out an ASAP will NOT, once again, will NOT, keep you from losing your job. It only keeps the FAA from violating you. If you are an idiot, the company can still fire you.

SkyWest will only provide you with a lawyer if they want to, they are not required to do so. If they decide to fire you, I guarantee you will not receive legal help from SkyWest.

 

[Rekks Inbound]

Actually, the pilots I know from UAL are pretty happy they have ALPA, since without them, the cuts they endured would have been even worse. And, of course, without ALPA they never would have gotten contract 2000, either.

Peace.

Rekks.