Shuttle/Chautauqua Integration Official

[Cardinal]

There should be some consolation in this for the Shuttlecraft pilots.

I'm a captain at an all turboprop regional. Myself and a number of pilots in both seats at my airline have applied to the RAH family. The pilots I interviewed with at RAH were almost exclusively flying turboprops under Part 121. Myself and all these other pilots think that RAH is such a good deal that we are willing to give up years an years of seniority to join your team. We're willing to surrender our captains seats and regress to being first officers again. Voluntarily.

Through fortuitous events your little airline got purchased, and you've ended up thrown on the CHQ list at various places, with the majority of your pilot group months, not years, from upgrade. Change is always hard, but consider this: Many of us who are flying at airlines not very different from yours would sell our own mothers to have been thrust into the seniority list where you ended up. We're so convinced that your future is bright, that we're willing to start at the bottom. See you on the line.

 

[brew3departure]

Tindriver72 et al...

Why is NOBODY talking about what Habib said earlier?

Tindriver - I understand your frustration, but the truth lies somewhere in the middle, right? I don't have a clue what went on during the merger talks -- we heard a lot of banter from both sides...but if, in fact, 12:1 was offered before it went to arbitration, get mad at your EC and the people making the decisions for Local 264. If someone can back up the fact that it (12:1) was offered, your anger should be directed at your union leadership. Not ours.

That being said, it's all in the past and back to reality. I wish no animosity or ill will towards any -- everyone knew it was a gamble going to arbitration. It's easy to Monday morning quarterback, but maybe someone who knows can interject about "playing nicely."

People are getting screwed here, no question about it. If you really want to get down to it, though, it wasn't up to you or me...when the courts get involved, it's really never a good thing, is it?

-brew3

 

[I.P. Freley]

It ain't a good decision unless NOBODY is happy, right?

Well, certainly nobody at Shuttle America is happy about it, except perhaps the people at the very bottom of the SA list, who are losing essentially nothing and are going to have the same relative seniority they had when they got hired. Also unhappy, and rightly so, are the present CHQ pilots who populate the 900-1000 numbers (or thereabouts) on the old list, knowing that they take the worst hit of anyone on the pre-integration list.

Happier than a pig in his own filth are the top 900 people on the old CHQ list, for whom everything stays exactly the same.

And they shouldn't be happy about it. This deal just plain stinks on many levels... The top 2/3 of the previously-existing CHQ list are totally unaffected by this decision (!!!), and the lower 1/3 take it in the shorts. The guys/gals below the spot where the SA captains are being slotted are REALLY in a position to be angry! You've gotta really feel for the first person on the old CHQ list after where those captains are going... Magically having 45 (give or take) people appear IMMEDIATELY above them on the list (no piont in spreading them out over a larger portion of the list, that's CRAZY TALK!!). Of course, go another 200 spots on down and now it's 70 people, which really isn't all that different, but WOW.

Of course I'm sure it never occurred to you that any of the SA people are on their second, third, fourth airline themselves, or at least they are NOW... And that many who are still there (not to mention former pilots that gave up and left, myself included) put up with a lot of garbage at SA, gambling that the payoff would be that they'd "do something" with the company, much like they did with CHQ back in the day. For those that worked their tails off under some of the worst conditions imaginable, for relatively meager pay, under threats of closure and honest-to-God pay cuts, hoping that there was going to be a light at the end of the tunnel, this is a kick in the teeth.

IMHO, you guys ended up about where you should have on the list condisdering you didn't bring any airplanes with you.

No, they didn't end up "where (they) should have". When captains (some with six or more years in the left seat at Shuttle America) become FO's with 175 places between them and the most junior captain on the master list (and his/her whopping 18 months of company experience before upgrade), they most certainly didn't end up where they should've.

Had the airplanes come over as well, this woulda been an entirly different ballgame.

Does this mean that you are going to happily offer all the plum spots on the seniority list to MDA pilots if and when the MDA pilots come on over to RAH? 747 fought to keep FELLOW TEAMSTERS at the bottom of the list, why are you going to smile and wave the ALPA MDA people on by if they come with their airplanes?

(And don't gimme any sh!t about the certificate. There are more than a few out and available.)

Care to clue us all in on this raft full o' certs that are floating around, waiting to be bought, for a measly million dollars and a smile and a nod from the FAA? Do you SERIOUSLY believe that buying a certificate is that easy? Were you paying attention to how long it took the Republic certificate to be approved?

Overall, I guess I'm not totally surprised that the SA people got screwed... I'm just surprised at how BADLY they were screwed... And at how readily the bottom 1/3 of the old CHQ list were screwed, for that matter. Gotta love the Teamsters, and gotta love 747 most of all. I know it's not the individual pilots (mostly) that campaigned for this, and in the end it was an arbitrator that made the final decision, but it's absolutely HEARTBREAKING to see what a filthy end this has come to.

 

[Mike man]

Originally Posted by sleddriver77
Had the airplanes come over as well, this woulda been an entirly different ballgame.

Does this mean that you are going to happily offer all the plum spots on the seniority list to MDA pilots if and when the MDA pilots come on over to RAH? 747 fought to keep FELLOW TEAMSTERS at the bottom of the list, why are you going to smile and wave the ALPA MDA people on by if they come with their airplanes?

When you buy a used car the previous owners don't come with the car...do they?

 

[tindriver72]

...but if, in fact, 12:1 was offered before it went to arbitration, get mad at your EC and the people making the decisions for Local 264. If someone can back up the fact that it (12:1) was offered, your anger should be directed at your union leadership. Not ours.


-brew3

I have not heard either way, but I find it very hard to imagine that a 12:1 was offered, let alone turned down. If it was, then the SA Mec is probably to blame. It is quite improbable that is was actually offered.

I just don't understand some peoples devotion to the notion that THEY PERSONALLY RESCUED all the shuttle pilots from certain doom, and, because of said rescue, mearly deserve to see the bottom of the list, regardless of there time put in.

Flip the scenerio around. Imagine shuttle was chq, and you just got stuck on the bottom of the list after putting in 7 years???

Just makes no sense to me.

 

[I.P. Freley]

When you buy a used car the previous owners don't come with the car...do they?

No, and when you buy a house the previous owners don't live there, either.

Unfortunately, neither of these two comparisons mean squat when talking about airlines.

 

[Jester1092]

It's over and done with now. Why keep complaining about what can no longer be changed? We're all on the CHQ list now. Lets go back to work.

 

[BendOverAgain?]

Why is NOBODY talking about what Habib said earlier?

Tindriver - I understand your frustration, but the truth lies somewhere in the middle, right? I don't have a clue what went on during the merger talks -- we heard a lot of banter from both sides...but if, in fact, 12:1 was offered before it went to arbitration, get mad at your EC and the people making the decisions for Local 264. If someone can back up the fact that it (12:1) was offered, your anger should be directed at your union leadership. Not ours.

That being said, it's all in the past and back to reality. I wish no animosity or ill will towards any -- everyone knew it was a gamble going to arbitration. It's easy to Monday morning quarterback, but maybe someone who knows can interject about "playing nicely."

People are getting screwed here, no question about it. If you really want to get down to it, though, it wasn't up to you or me...when the courts get involved, it's really never a good thing, is it?

-brew3

Well you are right, 12:1 was one of the suggestions offered - By the Shuttle MEC not the Chq MEC and Chq turned it down immediately. Every offer from the Chq MEC was different wording of forms of staple. And EVERY offer from Shuttle was rejected.

For what it's worth that is what went down. Now it's over and the only fight now is how those (some with over 7 years with Shuttle) are going to make their house payments if by some chance we don't get to keep our Shuttle pay and longevity.

So our fight is no longer with any from Chq, but possibly with the bank. Thanks.

 

[Mike man]

For what it's worth that is what went down. Now it's over and the only fight now is how those (some with over 7 years with Shuttle) are going to make their house payments if by some chance we don't get to keep our Shuttle pay and longevity.

Allegheny-Mohawk

Section 4. (a) Subject to the applicable conditions set forth. Herein, no employee of either of the carriers involved in the merger who is continued in service shall as a result of the merger be placed in worse position with respect to compensation than he occupied immediately prior to his displacement so long as he is unable in the normal exercise of his said seniority rights under existing agreements, rules, and practices to obtain a position producing compensation equal to or exceeding the compensation of the position held by him immediately prior to such date, except, however, that if he fails to exercise his seniority rights to secure another available position, which does not require a change in residence, to which he is entitled under the working agreement and which carries a rate of pay an compensation exceeding those of the position which he elects to retain, he shall thereafter be treated for the purposes of this section as occupying the position which he elects to decline.

 

[chromeshawn]

Read the Arbitration Results

I feel that the reasoning in the arbitrators letter covers the outcome pretty clearly. I feel that his reasoning is very fair and equitable. (Note: I am in one of the "WORSE" groups, and I still feel that the results were fair, though they did not benefit me at all.) Following are the reasons:

SAAB FO's -40- MUCH BETTER - These guys are moving up the food chain quite a bit. Going from a struggling Turbo-Prop operator to a booming Jet operator has its advantages... Better work rules and better pay don't hurt much to start with. They'll soon find out that their peers in the EMB170's right seat have mostly come from, or been furloughed from (like me) from, other regional carriers. (ACA/Independence, Chicago Express, Colgan, Piedmont, PSA, and even a few guys furloughed out of the majors seems to comprise the majority of our origins.) And none of these guys got any seniority when they started here. The SAAB FO's got a really good deal!

Junior SAAB CA -10+- FAIR - Though downgraded, they will upgrade again soon. Their upgrade will be into a jet aircraft with better work rules, better pay, better career marketability, and definitely better QOL, at least in the long run. These guys seem to have gotten a "Fair Shake." Some better, some worse = fair.

EMB 145 FO #906+ -200- WORSE - These guys have had their CA upgrade delayed by +/-14 months. Yeah, so what, right? Wrong. These guys made a good choice of where to come, and expected to reap the benefits of "going where the smart money was." So, ten months at 1/2 the pay = $25,000. That will be their realized cost. Nothing gained but a few colligues above you instead of below you on the list. (BTW these guys are looking a furlough staring them in the face. Voluntary request is out... These might be the guys on the street when it is all said and done.)

Senior SAAB CA -40- WORSE - These seem to be the guys that most everyone is crying about. Well, short term worse, long term better. That's how I call it. These guys might be taking 10-14 months in the right seat, and may be junior to some guys that have less experience than they do, but thier job outlook/security has just greatly improved. These guys are now with a much more stable company, with much better work rules. Yes, the 10-14 months of downgrade sucks, but talk to the guys at my former PSA that have been downgraded up to four times over the past 5 years... As for the monetary loss for these guys, who knows. That is still to be determined by the company. There are alot of rumors floating, who knows which ones are true. I saw one guy on here saying he was in this group, and he was going to lose his house, car, wife, dog, and the rest of the country song... Well, welcome to the airlines. You can choose to look at the glass either way, and for that guy, I guess its half empty...

EMB 170 FO -200- WORSE - Delayed Upgrade +/-14 months again = roughly $25,000, in addition these guys are losing a heck of a lot of QOL. These guys have lost their monthly bidding power. Yes, they had it good, and may have got lucky... ...but "luck favors the prepaired mind," and most of them came from other 121 operators, with fairly good knowledge of this operation, and the success that they should expect.

EMB pilots #905 & Above -900- UNAFFECTED - same growth either way, only effect could have been negative, so UNAFFECTED IS GOOD. Though some people want them to "have a bad day, because we're all having a bad day..." These guys are no better or worse than the were when RP purchased S5, hence: UNAFFECTED.

So the way I call it:
-40 SAAB drivers better off
-------------------------------------900 EMB drivers are unaffected
-------------------------------------10+ SAAB drivers break even
-40 SAAB drivers worse off FOR NOW, depending on what WH decides on pay.
-400 EMB drivers worse off, regardless.

As for those of you placing value on the "SA Certificate," Methinks Chicago Express's ticket would have covered it just as well. I also think the guys at Chicago Express would be much more satisfied with that outcome than their current position. As most of the Chicago Express guys got their new RAH DOH, and not any type of placement, I personally feel that they would be in a much better position if their cert had been purchased. I'm sure it would have been just as much of a bargan. Who knows...??? (The argument of any other cert other than S5 taking as long as the RP cert is not valad. New cert falls under different rules than modifying an old cert. That's why RP has taken so long, at least as far as I can tell.) ...enough on that rant!!!!

And finally for those of you calling us whiners.... because of our delayed upgrade... If you're talking to those of us in the 170, nearly all of us have come from other airlines, and many of us with more time in the airlines than than our new, more senior peers. We put our butts where the "smart money" was. It was not by luck, but by choice. We just didn't just throw the dice, and come to CHQ because we rolled boxcars, with the single roll bet on the table... We researched, and chose where to come. We didn't go to Eagle or Mesa, we knew better. Many people on this board seem to think it was pure luck, you are WRONG!!! We chose this company because this was "Where the smart money was!" We made an educated decision, and it was paying off.

For those of you calling the CHQ pilots unfair/greedy/whiners, I think you should know more about the situation before you go pointing fingers. CHQ pilots didn't force this, an arbitrator decided it in a court of law! Someone completely neutral, with nothing to gain, and with only fiarness in mind came up with this merger outcome. Not only was the outcome decided, but it was explained in the court documents. These are public record, as such they are available for your reading pleasure. The reasoning behind his decision is clear and honest. Yes, there were countless other suggestions/ideas of fairness out there, but this was the decided solution. It was out of our hands, and if you read the results, along with the explanation, I think the reasoning may become clear to you as well.

As for those of us here in the game, its time to accept the results, lick our wounds, and get to work. We are all on the same team now, and fortunately with both our groups, we seem to be a great, sincere, and motivated group. I am sure that we will all have a great time on the line!

Welcome Aboard. (even the 80% of you that came in above me!)
Sincerely, WELCOME ABOARD!!!

 

[Mike man]

They Get The Same Pay...he Won"t Loose His House, Car, Etc.

 

[Cardinal]

chromeshawn said exactly what I was trying to say, but more eloquently. Thanks.

 

[BendOverAgain?]

Chromeshawn:

I disagree with several of your interpretations/opinions and misinformation - but I will just leave it at that as it is a done deal. Welcome to Shuttle!

Mike Oxlong:
They Get The Same Pay...he Won"t Loose His House, Car, Etc.

Where do you get your information? As of today no official release has yet to be out on the pay from Shuttle?

 

[tindriver72]

For those of you calling the CHQ pilots unfair/greedy/whiners, I think you should know more about the situation before you go pointing fingers. CHQ pilots didn't force this, an arbitrator decided it in a court of law!

Very thorough... but you just don't get it. If those handful of CHQ pilots wouldn't have complained about a fair merger, it wouldn't have gone to an arbitrator at all!! It would have stayed in house. That would have been the right thing to do.

P.S. you may need to revise your numbers slightly. Some of the S5 senior F/O's where very close to upgrade. Now it's a ways away.

 

[I.P. Freley]

Welcome Aboard. (even the 80% of you that came in above me!)
Sincerely, WELCOME ABOARD!!!

How sincere, exactly, is that "welcome aboard" when the dozen paragraphs immediately prior to this "welcome" was basically telling the S5 people to STFU because they got a fair deal? Just curious.

And as for Mike Oxlong's comment that "they'll get the same pay", how is it that you know more than the S5 pilots, who've heard nothing official about keeping their pay? At present this is nothing more than rumor, possibly a false one intended to keep the morale at S5 from going COMPLETELY down the toilet. And if the rumors are true, even the best case scenario of them keeping their pay scale will have a very significant string attached.

 

[OUT]

There should be some consolation in this for the Shuttlecraft pilots.

I'm a captain at an all turboprop regional. Myself and a number of pilots in both seats at my airline have applied to the RAH family. The pilots I interviewed with at RAH were almost exclusively flying turboprops under Part 121. Myself and all these other pilots think that RAH is such a good deal that we are willing to give up years an years of seniority to join your team. We're willing to surrender our captains seats and regress to being first officers again. Voluntarily.

Through fortuitous events your little airline got purchased, and you've ended up thrown on the CHQ list at various places, with the majority of your pilot group months, not years, from upgrade. Change is always hard, but consider this: Many of us who are flying at airlines not very different from yours would sell our own mothers to have been thrust into the seniority list where you ended up. We're so convinced that your future is bright, that we're willing to start at the bottom. See you on the line.

Who are you with now? I'd love to fly there after you free up a slot. Are they hiring? What's the mins?

 

[Cracker]

Very thorough... but you just don't get it. If those handful of CHQ pilots wouldn't have complained about a fair merger, it wouldn't have gone to an arbitrator at all!! It would have stayed in house. That would have been the right thing to do.

I don't want to add anything to a past tense argument, but I would like to point out the obvious...

If those handful of S5 pilots wouldn't have complained about a fair merger, it wouldn't have gone to an arbitrator at all!! It would have stayed in house. That may have been the right thing to do.

Hey there Kettle, I'm Pot...works both ways.

I point this out with a joking bit of sarcasm and a nudge. Welcome aboard.

 

[BendOverAgain?]

If those handful of S5 pilots wouldn't have complained about a fair merger, it wouldn't have gone to an arbitrator at all!! It would have stayed in house.

Sure, the S5 pilots shouldn't have complained and accepted staple on their own certificate, Get real. I'm sorry, S5 pilots worked too long & hard just to take crap without a fight.

 

[dollacrackho]

shuttle pilots you just got f&cked up the as$ while most of our company remained unaffected. we just ripped your hearts out and served them to you on a platter.

now everyone lets just get back to work and WELCOME ABOARD!!

 

[Mike man]

Quote:

Mike Oxlong:
They Get The Same Pay...he Won"t Loose His House, Car, Etc.


Where do you get your information? As of today no official release has yet to be out on the pay from Shuttle?

See Below:

Section 4. (a) Subject to the applicable conditions set forth. Herein, no employee of either of the carriers involved in the merger who is continued in service shall as a result of the merger be placed in worse position with respect to compensation than he occupied immediately prior to his displacement so long as he is unable in the normal exercise of his said seniority rights under existing agreements, rules, and practices to obtain a position producing compensation equal to or exceeding the compensation of the position held by him immediately prior to such date, except, however, that if he fails to exercise his seniority rights to secure another available position, which does not require a change in residence, to which he is entitled under the working agreement and which carries a rate of pay an compensation exceeding those of the position which he elects to retain, he shall thereafter be treated for the purposes of this section as occupying the position which he elects to decline.

(b.) The protection afforded by the foregoing paragraph is hereby designated as "displacement allowance" which shall be determined in each instance in the manner hereinafter described. Any employee entitled to such an allowance is hereinafter referred to as a "displaced" employee.

(c) Each displacement allowance show be a monthly allowance determined by computing the total compensation received by the employee and his total time paid for during the last 12 months in which he performed service immediately preceding the date of his displacement (such 12 months being hereinafter referred to as the "test period.") and by dividing separately the total compensation and the total time paid for by 12, thereby producing the average monthly compensation and average monthly time paid for, which shall be the minimum amounts used to guarantee the displaced employee; and if his compensation in his current position is less in any month in which he performs work than the aforesaid average compensation, he shall be paid the difference, less compensation for any time lost on account of voluntary absences to the extent that he is not available for service equivalent to average monthly time during the test period, but he shall be compensated in addition thereto at the rate of the position filled for any time worked in excess of the average monthly time paid for during the test period.

(d) The protection afforded herein shall apply only to displacement occurring within a period of 3 years from the effective date of merger (referred to herein and as the claim period); and the period during which this protection is to be given (referred to herein as he protective period) shall extend for a period of 4 years from the date on which the employee is displaced.