Shutdown

[Diesel]

Ahhh so this is the fear part? fewer owners=fewer aircraft=furlough pilots. lets make sure we get it right.

How about this. You must be using your vast flying knowledge, ATP or A&P and a few thousand hours in command to decide what writeup broken item is insignificant vs non.

A writeup is a writeup. Carrying broken aircraft is illegal. You want a higher percentage of availability in aircraft? Maintain them better and more often.

Yes older airplanes do break less. I know the older X's I fly perform much better and break less than the newer ones. Okay 1000 hrs whatever. Cessna never built these planes to do that. Ask them. They don't build airline type equipment. They build corporate aircraft that is able to see a crew chief every week.

 

[XTW]

Just curious, is a dispatcher required for a fractional operator? Does the FAA require a dispatcher to sign off on a release for 91k or 135 flights as they are with a 121 operation?

No

X

 

[El Chupacabra]

are you prepared to accept the business ramifcations of these actions?

Yes.

What part of 93% voting in favor of a Strike did you not understand?

I want the union to walk out of the SHAM negotiations right now.

Last word is management has offered 5th yr pay about 7 k lower than last yrs rejected TA ... with NO INSURANCE. No Retro , No Scope.

I am happier continuing just as we are now...

 

[AA717driver]

Chup--You guys are in the same boat as every other group out there today. Until there is a flood of people out the door, taking their valuable (in dollar terms--that's the only way management views it) training with them, nothing will change.

Right now, whether it's due to lack of opportunity, lethargy or QOL v. pay people aren't leaving.

I make below NBAA pay. Sure I'd like a $30k raise to get me there. But I don't want to have to move to HPN to get it. That's my choice and my employer has no reason to bump me up because he can't move around his office because of the piles of resumes he gets.

I hope you get what you are after. I'm just not optimistic at this time. Good luck.TC

 

[Ultra Grump]

...Again, fewer owners = fewer aircraft = fewer pilots
...There is culpability on both sides of this TEAM, and both sides will pay a large price if the equation above plays out...

This is true. What managament fails to accept is that if they give what we're asking now, the "large price" later can be avoided.

The true equation is: fewer owners = less money = goodbye NetJets. There is one simple way to avoid this. Can you guess what it is?

 

[FAcFriend]

This is true. What managament fails to accept is that if they give what we're asking now, the "large price" later can be avoided.

The true equation is: fewer owners = less money = goodbye NetJets. There is one simple way to avoid this. Can you guess what it is?

ok ultragrump,

I give up...lets bury this company...lets all get unemployed together...

You win..the pilots win...YAHOO.....the pilots win....

NetJets is out of business....

 

[Diesel]

aa17

I don't know if you remember it but you and g200 and G4G5 were talking about how corparate flight departments don't lose money they actually make money for the flight department.

It was an excellent post and is dead on. problem i can't find it. It was in the corp section. Do you remember it?

 

[dukeofdub]

This is true. What managament fails to accept is that if they give what we're asking now, the "large price" later can be avoided.

The true equation is: fewer owners = less money = goodbye NetJets. There is one simple way to avoid this. Can you guess what it is?

Lockout the Union and bring in pilots who want to work and build a good company? How can a company survive going 400 million in dept just to pay a portion of it's workforce? And the excuse that the Company wastes money doesn't buy it. If it could be easily fixed, it would be.

 

[CMHTroll]

Lockout the Union and bring in pilots who want to work and build a good company? How can a company survive going 400 million in dept just to pay a portion of it's workforce? And the excuse that the Company wastes money doesn't buy it. If it could be easily fixed, it would be.

Duke, I don't think it will ever come to that, but you are right about the cost savings. Low hanging fruit has been easily picked, and the travel committe, (a JOINT venture of management and pilots,) has saved the company a lot of money. When or if the contract is done and the pilots decide to want to be part of a team, then we can get back to working on cost savings. But until then we will watch money fly out the window as pilots ground aircraft and show their solidarity.

 

[Ultra Grump]

ok ultragrump,

I give up...lets bury this company...lets all get unemployed together...

You win..the pilots win...YAHOO.....the pilots win....

NetJets is out of business....

I've never said "let's bury the company." You fail to realize that management has the ability to bring this to a close. How much do all the selloffs cost the company? How much does losing owners because of OS and lack of aircraft cost? I would venture a guess that the pay we're asking for is a drop in the bucket in comparison. Management has the ability to change ALL of this. The question is, when will they?

 

[FAcFriend]

I've never said "let's bury the company." You fail to realize that management has the ability to bring this to a close. How much do all the selloffs cost the company? How much does losing owners because of OS and lack of aircraft cost? I would venture a guess that the pay we're asking for is a drop in the bucket in comparison. Management has the ability to change ALL of this. The question is, when will they?

Many have said lets bury the co.

But you guys know it all- you know that it is mismangement causing all your monetary problems. You know that raising fees will cure all your ills, and you know you are at an impasse and some pilots blame the mediation board.

/You think everything revolves around you guys- guess what...everyone feels that way- dispatch, CS, sales.....
without sales, we would have no NJA.
Without pilots we would have no NJA-
Without billing, we would have no NJA-

Everyone wants more--

 

[dukeofdub]

The Union has the ability to make it end now!

I've never said "let's bury the company." You fail to realize that management has the ability to bring this to a close. How much do all the selloffs cost the company? How much does losing owners because of OS and lack of aircraft cost? I would venture a guess that the pay we're asking for is a drop in the bucket in comparison. Management has the ability to change ALL of this. The question is, when will they?

The problem is that you guess. Management is constantly working to improve operations, and there will always be a percentage of sell-offs because it makes economic sense. You Union is basing it's demands on guesses. Use facts and not guesses. The Union has the ability to bring this to a close tomorrow. The questions is, when will Union bring it to a close? Management has solid proposals on the table. And don't forget that the last TA, the one voted down was called the richest in the aviation industry in recent years by the head of the IBT Airline division. So lets get back to being realistic and when is the Union going to bring this to a close?

 

[You're right]

Ultra Grump, et al

Here are a few interesting excerpts from an article regarding the "rise and fall" of United Airlines.

The article is entitled "The Legacy Airlines have lost $33 Billion, since the beginning of 2001"

"(the union management) preached that all the union employees had to do was to maintain "solidarity," and they could expand their own economic prosperity simply by demanding that United Airlines capitulate to their every demand. The gullible rank-n-file actually believed.... that the customers would keep flocking to their doors, no matter how much they abused those loyal customers, no matter how high the ticket prices had to go to support all those obscene labor union costs, hanging like millstones about United's neck.

The Summer From Hell, reveals how Frederick Dubinsky (labor representative) was directly responsible for the beginning of the end, at United Airlines.

Of all the 25,000 canceled flights, of all the customers stranded by United Airlines' summer of delays and disservice three years ago
Dubinsky promised hard-nosed tactics. Dubinsky in one meeting repeated his oft-stated philosophy of negotiations. "We don't want to kill the golden goose,'' he said. "We just want to choke it by the neck until it gives us every last egg." With United "awash in cash," in Dubinsky's words, he figured the goose had plenty of eggs to spare.

As long as anyone is willing to accept the idea that wealth and abundance can be produced, just by union "solidarity" forcing the employer to capitulate to every irrational demand of the union bosses----without any regard to the realities in the Free Market Place----then union jobs will continue to go the way of the Dodo Bird. Loyalty to one's peer group is a poor substitute for understanding the basic laws and fundamental facts of economics."

Anyone heard of this Fred "Jim Jones" Dubinksky guy? How did it work out for United? (what was it again? About $215/share before Dubinsky and $1.70/share after Dubinsky). I wonder what he's doing now?

If you do know him, and don't care, perfect, let's all just "put on our white sneakers and drink the koolaid" together.

The "chicken game" is almost over fellas. The market will demand it.

 

[Diesel]

you're right the market is demanding it.

owners are moving to CS (great for them they have taken customer service to the next level) NJ doesn't even have a customer service class anymore. smmmmmmmaaaart

NJA can't recruit pilots. NewHire classes are being cancelled

The list goes on and on.

 

[You're right]

Surprise--Surprise--Diesel missed the point.

However, your comment about the "service class" is spot on. This is actually a constructive comment. This class should be integrated with pilots, Bridgeway folks, managers, etc. in an attempt to push forward/work together. I hope we can find a way (after the contract).

 

[squonk]

your right:

All I'm asking, is that when some pilots post on here, "tick tock", "Red October", "Black November", "Happy Holidays", etc are you prepared to accept the business ramifcations of these actions?

Is the company prepared to accept the ramifications of dragging this out? We have already shown we can play chicken with the best.

The ball is in your court. What will you do?

 

[Diesel]

But why was the class taken away in the first place. God knows I hated the class to death but it did a great job of trying to get everybody on the same page. There were all types of people in the class not just the pilots.

Too bad it could have been a good way of getting people back on the same page. Both the company and the pilots.

Problem is I fear that this is no longer a service company. It is a sales company. That's where CS is going to kick A$$

 

[You're right]

God knows I hated the class to death but it did a great job of trying to get everybody on the same page. There were all types of people in the class not just the pilots.

Too bad it could have been a good way of getting people back on the same page. Both the company and the pilots.

You know, I think back on the times that the pilots and Bridgeway teams worked together best and it was for reasons like you state above. I too "hated" the class, but the class content wasn't really what "sunk in", it was the conversation and relationship building between the pilot and support teams that I remember most. Not certain if this class would be affective before the contract, but it would certainly help in beginning to tear down the walls after the contract.

ps We should stop conversing like this---people will talk

 

[squonk]

cmhtroll:

When or if the contract is done and the pilots decide to want to be part of a team, then we can get back to working on cost savings. But until then we will watch money fly out the window as pilots ground aircraft and show their solidarity.

WE are part of a team. That is what you fail to see.

If you could get around your condescending attitude long enough to look at the facts.

I guess you think we didn't have these problems before? You fail to realize how much 2200 pilots putting their fingers in the dike helped out over the last eight years. It is a leaking levee that can't be plugged from your white tower. You have to get out on the line to fix certain problems.

Do you see the light now? You need to remove your blinders.

There is a way to stop watching the money fly out the window and actually plug that leak. It doesn't look like you or your ilk want to stop it though.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Ultra Grump, et al

Here are a few interesting excerpts from an article regarding the "rise and fall" of United Airlines.

This "article" was obviously written by someone with an axe to grind. The "fall" of all of the current ailing airlines is their refusal to charge the customer what the service costs to provide. Instead their solution is to charge the employees the cost of doing business through concessions. And still they lose more money. If every employee in the most troubled airlines worked for free, at the current airfares they'd still lose money. Airfares must increase. It's not rocket science, and it's not applicable to the NetJets situation.