Seniority by Date of Hire

[cactusboy53]

And you are on the "Lucky Side" of things!

?? Going on 8 years now. Had AWA been left as is, I would have been a captain on reserve for the past 1.5 years, and US Air would have gone the way of Eastern, Pan Am, Braniff (1&2), etc. I count myself blessed that I presently get to keep my job (with 100% DH & Mechanical ).

Could you explain how an AWA pilot hired prior to the acquisition will be lucky if he is furloughed BEFORE a former US Air FURLOUGHED PILOT (with NO hope of returning to the ORIGINAL US Air EVER ...because they were 4 DAYS away from COMPLETE LIQUIDATION)??

When this acquisition occurred, I thought ....surely these US Air folks are reasonable...surely we can get this merger stuff done and put behind us so that we can concentrate on a new joint contract....surely this will go no further than the ALP merger process. Pretty funny, huh??

Our industry is under attack by greedy oil people and speculators. In fact, our entire US economy is being held hostage by these greedy people. So we are all being attacked externally. The AWA group is being attacked internally by their own "union" (and sued...albiet unsuccessfully at this time). Now where did I see that "beating a dead horse" icon????

 

[cactusboy53]

The bottom East guy was just the bottom guy for a short snap shot in 2005. It was not like he got hired in 1988 a was at the bottom his whole career like Dave Odell.

The 1988 DOH had almost 2000 pilots below them in 2001 and they are now are all line holders in 2008. Times change but not your DOH.

M

Final, meet Binding. Binding, meet Final.

M;
Is it true that you did not work for mainline prior to the acquisition??

 

[MCDU]

True. I was Mesa.

M

 

[MCDU]

Quote from Dave: Could you explain how an AWA pilot hired prior to the acquisition will be lucky if he is furloughed BEFORE a former US Air FURLOUGHED PILOT (with NO hope of returning to the ORIGINAL US Air EVER ...because they were 4 DAYS away from COMPLETE LIQUIDATION)??

Dave, that is B.S. No one would have loan us any money and we did not even start selling off assets. You do not loan money unless you see value in something. Try again. The fact is that with out this USAIR merger AWA would be history. Look where all the flying is being cut and where all the money was made.

M

 

[eaglesview]

Way to much weight put on a snapshot taken back in 2005. DOH is the only non subjective method. If USAPA puts up a fence to protect the west flying that should be it, end of story.

 

[pipejockey]

Thats right.. I don't. You guys merge with an airline and then destroy that airlines pilot group!!

Leave all those peeps out on the street. How does that feel?

Out on the street? What are you talking about? I heard about 400 of them went to Eagle and ended up doing to those guys what they were pissed AA was doing to them. Sheesh, talk about wanting your cake and eating it to.

 

[MCDU]

Thanks Eaglesview.
Its nice to see your support. Anybody who would have been in our situation would understand why the Nic would never work. ALPA or not. It does not matter. Alpa could have done nothing to get the list implemented anyway. Prater told me that the Nic would never see the light due the fact that it has to be approved my both groups.

M

 

[JetMonkey]

15 Year guy that was Recalled! Exactly My Point. This guy put 15 years of his life into USAIR and just because he was furloughed a New Hire at AWA should be senior to him? Get Real !!

USAIR had already made the tuff furloughs to try to be profitable. Their pilots gave up cold hard cash too. DOH is the way to go with this USAIR AWA deal.

There is no more AWA. Its all US Airways. Its one company. There should be one sensible seniority list.

You just answered your own question and didn't even realized it because your misinformed. Your right about there is no more AWA, well guess what? There's no more USAir neither. It's a totally new company with the same name that those 15 year guys came back to. That's why they were put behind actives, they didn't have any expectations to come back to the old USAir, and following ALPA merger policy, Nicalou placed them accordingly.

The list is fair.

 

[eaglesview]

Thanks Eaglesview.
Its nice to see your support. Anybody who would have been in our situation would understand why the Nic would never work. ALPA or not. It does not matter. Alpa could have done nothing to get the list implemented anyway. Prater told me that the Nic would never see the light due the fact that it has to be approved my both groups.

M

hopefully it gets worked out. I would not put any weight in what Prater says or any other ALPA exec.

PS any moment now someone will accuse us of being the same person.

 

[licorice]

15 Year guy that was Recalled! Exactly My Point. This guy put 15 years of his life into USAIR and just because he was furloughed a New Hire at AWA should be senior to him? Get Real !!

USAIR had already made the tuff furloughs to try to be profitable. Their pilots gave up cold hard cash too. DOH is the way to go with this USAIR AWA deal.

There is no more AWA. Its all US Airways. Its one company. There should be one sensible seniority list.

--just because--your husband was shot doesn't mean you shouldn't have enjoyed the play, Mrs. Lincoln. Raj, you seem to have ignored the rest of my post.... You make a pure emotional argument, which is no argument at all. DOH is an emotional argument.. answer this: Do the USAir pilots actually "deserve" (for whatever reason under the sun) better flying positions than they would have had prior to the merger BECAUSE of airplanes, routes, etc. that neither THEY nor their company brought to the merger? Do the AMWEST pilots, who have been flying their positions for years now, and have had every reasonable expectation to continue to do so, "deserve" now to fly lesser positions? Fences? It's funny, the only time I hear 'fences' is in conjunction with a DOH fanatic...DOH/with fences --seem to be joined at the hip. I ask all you DOH guys...why fences? ..Why not just go for the gold right out of the box!!...I mean..it's fair, right?DOH? --Fences are an ENTICEMENT, implicitly acknowledging the unfairness and unreasonableness of DOH. You can run but you can't hide from crappy seniority. DOH guys, the only reason you support DOH is because it will give you an advantage or windfall over a completely equivalent (or sometimes more than equivalent in terms of pay and benefits) pilot group..a pilot group that only expects to continue to fly what they can currently fly. (as should be everyones' REASONABLE expectation)

 

[cactusboy53]

Oh...oh...where am I?? I thought I was at flightinfo.com but it feels like US Aviation......oh...oh...the room is spinning out of control (and me w/o my first beer??!!)!!!!:beer:

So, Marty.
We AWA folks have many Mesa pilot's in our ranks. Could we have counted on your support if you had been even one number senior to Dave Odell??

That would have been funny. MCDU...."Those rat B#######'s Eastie's are ruining everything!!"

 

[Bringupthebird]

Actually USAPA can thank ALPA policy requiring a joint contract prior to SLI for their existance. Had the horse been put ahead of the cart and the SLI been determined and implemented first, the joint contract could have been judged truly on it's merits alone, not on how it could be used to circumvent the arbitrated award.

The AWA pilots need to take some of the responsibility for being in the position they are by choosing to be wimps on the high road than fighting the guerilla war which was necessary.

As they always say, "We'll get 'em next time" (but we'll use exactly the same failed strategy).

 

[MCDU]

Oh...oh...where am I?? I thought I was at flightinfo.com but it feels like US Aviation......oh...oh...the room is spinning out of control (and me w/o my first beer??!!)!!!!:beer:

So, Marty.
We AWA folks have many Mesa pilot's in our ranks. Could we have counted on your support if you had been even one number senior to Dave Odell??

That would have been funny. MCDU...."Those rat B#######'s Eastie's are ruining everything!!"

Thats why we call AWA=Mesa Grande. Same mentality. The apple does not fall far from the tree.


M

 

[Fubijaakr]

Troll alert!

 

[Soulfly]

Nevermind.....

 

[MCDU]

Come on Soulfly. Give it a shot. You need to vent. I know debating this does not get us anywhere. But it is good to lay it all out. This Topic is like debating pro-life or pro-choice. One side thinks DOH and the other relative seniority. But its all good. In 10 years most of us Easties will be gone and you will have your airline.

M

 

[ASADFW7]

Air Canada use be a part of ALPA then know as CALPA. Their parent company bought all the Regionals flying for them. When they were furloughing they want common employer to go backwards into the regionals. The problem was on the other direction with a common carrier petition. It was so bad they broke out of CALPA. The problem is that when CALPA merged with ALPA, all the legal expenses are still paid by ALPA in reference to the common carrier petition. It doesn't matter apples to grapes. Common carrier is common carrier! Be careful what you wish for and file lawsuits for.

 

[aa73]

Thats how it should always be when two union pilot groups merge! Period !

You obviously don't work for SWA.

 

[UALjan15]

Yeah, we needed this thread like a bad case of crabs. What an utter waste of time...

 

[Flybet3]

Thats how it should always be when two union pilot groups merge! Period !

That's what I've always said. Merge them and give them a number based on date of hire and DON'T MOVE ANYONE!! Everyone stays in their current seat. And then when vacancies come out things are awarded by seniority. That's fair.

 

[Deadalus]

You are not comparing apples to apples. You are comparing Apples to grapes!

With an Apple to Apple Merge >> Seniorty should be "Date of hire"

What if one apple is profitable with good credit and the other one is rotten with worms crawling around in it? In other words, get a clue dufus.

 

[scoreboardII]

Thats how it should always be when two union pilot groups merge! Period !

You really don't think before you post do you?

 

[waka]

Thats how it should always be when two union pilot groups merge! Period !

Screw that! Relative seniority....no if's and's or but's/

 

[waveflyer]

horrible you found yourself at the bottom of the list after 15 years- but you did. you refused to move- sorry- you can't leapfrog from bottom to 50% overnight and make the purchasing carrier your furlough fodder.

NIC was right and addressed every issue you all have brought up. You just disagree w/ his decision. Can't wait for the process to be done and you all end up in your proper positions.

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

raj,

I know exactly how that feels... I was in that pilot group that got kicked to the street...

I guess you didn't get the sarcasm in my first post.

I'm just a "Kmart pilot". Always will be....

TV9Driver,

I have heard that quote kicked around quite often over the years. I believe it was attributable to APA’s negotiator Ed White. I don’t know if Capt White ever really said that or if it’s just urban legion. Anyways, and I do fly with former TWA Captains that are flying our most senior HNL trips in the left seat, and most native AAer’s do not believe that quote you are trying pin to the AA pilots. There are always a couple of bad apples, but by and large, it’s a pretty good professional relationship between the two groups.


Most here are smart enough to know, it only takes an economic hit or some bad management to end up on the pilot short end of the stick.


Bottom line, date of hire is way too simplistic an approach. The reality is that not all airlines are created equal. Next bring in the attorneys and negotiators and you’ve got a full blown battle. It is what it is.


Now, can we all put aside our petty differences to create a “national seniority list?” It’s the only long-term solution to protect our profession or else our managements will just continue to play us off against one another.

AA767AV8TOR

 

[charlie2]

I always had trouble with the "bringing a job to the merger" and the "career expectations" concepts because these change so quickly with managements' mismanagement. But we as pilots hold this mismanagement against the furloughed pilot for "not bringing a job to the merger.." or hold it against another pilot in a merger with "my management ordered a bzillion 777's so I have a career expectation to be a 777 capt next year and for the next 35 years of my career." Lets at least agree that it is not a pilots fault for being furloughed and that seniority number they have may be worth something in the future. My buddy at United had a career expectation to be a 737 capt at year 3 and a wide body capt at year 15. That was in 96 when he was hired but now here he is at year 11 looking at narrow body FO. So much for career expectations.

 

[JetMonkey]

It's career expectations at time of merger.

 

[imacdog]

Now, can we all put aside our petty differences to create a “national seniority list?” It’s the only long-term solution to protect our profession or else our managements will just continue to play us off against one another.

AA767AV8TOR

Yeah good luck on that one. As can be seen with USAPA, pilots will sink to new lows all the time in order to screw other pilots. There is no unity in this industry.

 

[vprMatrix]

Screw that! Relative seniority....no if's and's or but's/

:uzi:

Thanks but no thanks, how about Relative Position.

 

[charlie2]

It's career expectations at time of merger.

I know...a management created expectation that you will gladly use against another pilot at your first opportunity. Hope your management doesn't change your expectations at the wrong moment.