Seniority by Date of Hire

[michael707767]

Why should CAL and Expressjet not be date of hire with fences? Do you think that flying a bigger plane makes you a better pilot? If you have date of hire with fences and a trickle type bidding process there is no immediate windfall. This is the heart of all problems within Alpa, we all fly for a living, and I make more money flying an Rj than some do flying a 747. In this case size does not matter!!!

Are you kidding me? No immediate windfall? A windfall is a windfall, whether it happens now or twenty years down the road. In this example, to put an XJet pilot ahead of a CAL pilot, you may as well have just hired someone off the street and put them ahead of the CAL pilot. The affect on his career is the same.

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

The point of the exercise with CAL and XJT has nothing to do with size of airplane but, with size of paycheck and career expectations.

Here is another one. SWA merges with United. A five year captain at SWA makes more than a 747 captain at UAL. A three year SWA copilot makes more than a A320 captain at UAL. How do you merge that list?

Where that example gets even more fun is that UAL will be furoughing guys back to 1999 hires. Add that to the mix. So, almost all furloughs would be from SWA.

It was said that "Thats how it should always be when two union pilot groups merge! Period !" So, with my CAL/XJT example it is not apples to grapes using your own logic.

 

[outtahere]

So why is Delta and Northwest merger any different? If you put a Delta guy ahead of a Northwest guy is the effect not the same? Let me guess "but we are MAJOR airline pilots". The fact of the matter is we are all in this together, and just like a Delta guy doesn't want an Rj pilot to jump in his seat neither would I like to have a MD88 pilot jump into my left seat. So, IF, a merger of a major and a regional were to happen there should be fences, but not only that, the regional pilots senority should count as much as the major guys senority. Ask fins to tell you the sequence of events that transpired when Delta bought ASA and Comair. Those actions by Alpa put us where we are today, no question.

 

[MCDU]

And I certainly would not have put any furloughed pilots ahead of any actively flying West pilots.[/quote]



The NIC award would put the upcoming west furloughees ahead of active East pilots. Even though all the flying is being cut out West.
Anyway, the Nic is dead and does not have to be accepted by the company. It is a bargaining position of ALPA. With ALPA gone so is the NIC. Trust me. Its dead. It will be DOH with fences and protections to your flying. No one with a 2005 hire date will be able to bid ahead of a 1988 DOH in East bases.

M

 

[rajflyboy]

And I certainly would not have put any furloughed pilots ahead of any actively flying West pilots.

The NIC award would put the upcoming west furloughees ahead of active East pilots. Even though all the flying is being cut out West.
Anyway, the Nic is dead and does not have to be accepted by the company. It is a bargaining position of ALPA. With ALPA gone so is the NIC. Trust me. Its dead. It will be DOH with fences and protections to your flying. No one with a 2005 hire date will be able to bid ahead of a 1988 DOH in East bases.

M[/quote]

Thumbs up to the "East" guys

 

[cactusboy53]

Thats how it should always be when two union pilot groups merge! Period !

Raj;
The good guys at AWA agreed, it should have been a date of hire of September 27, 2005 for our counter parts. The arbitrator ruled otherwise with a final and binding list. Oh well........Final is Final, and Binding is Binding.

That is a good thing with the ALPA Merger policy (and now the new legislation). It makes the parties attempt to negotiate a fair list, and failing that they go through mediation....then to binding arbitration. Date of Hire used to be in the ALPA bylaws, but was legislated out some 15-16 years ago.

Best of luck.

 

[rajflyboy]

Raj;
The good guys at AWA agreed, it should have been a date of hire of September 27, 2005 for our counter parts. The arbitrator ruled otherwise with a final and binding list. Oh well........Final is Final, and Binding is Binding.

And you are on the "Lucky Side" of things!

 

[licorice]

Ok. I can certainly see your point. Tell me how you feel about the way the USAIR deal went down? (East vs West) deal? I'm not a USAIR guy but I know a lot of those guys.

That is a tough one, alright. But ask this: The bottom guy at USAir had approx. 15 yrs. active service before having been recalled 3 mos. prior to the merger...but he was still the bottom guy who "brought a job" to the merger. Did he have a rightful or reasonable expectation to catapult from theBOTTOM of his (USAir) list to where he would be vs. DOH at AMWEST...?...approx. 50% on the list and possibly a capt. position?--that would be a windfall for him and that is not allowed under ALPA merger policy. To go from the bottom to 50% overnight is a windfall, no matter when you were hired or what your length of service is! Now, the bottom AMWEST guy paired next to him (the USAir guy above) was a 3 mos. new hire and guess what he got...?...the bottom....no controversy there. So I don't know, neither bottom guy had any expectations of being anywhere but near the bottom of their respective seniority lists. To say that the bottom USAir guy "deserved" more based on DOH....I don't know.. I don't think so...DOES HE DESERVE A BETTER (or windfall) POSITION BECAUSE OF AIRPLANES, ROUTES ETC. THAT NEITHER HE NOR HIS PILOT GROUP NOR HIS COMPANY BROUGHT TO THE MERGER?-namely, the AMWEST airplanes and routes? Each airline brought roughly equivalent assets (except for international widebody, which was accounted for) to the merger...each should fly equivalent positions after the merger...

 

[rajflyboy]

That is a tough one, alright. But ask this: The bottom guy at USAir had approx. 15 yrs. active service before having been recalled 3 mos. prior to the merger...but he was still the bottom guy who "brought a job" to the merger. Did he have a rightful or reasonable expectation to catapult from theBOTTOM of his (USAir) list to where he would be vs. DOH at AMWEST...?...approx. 50% on the list and possibly a capt. position?--that would be a windfall for him and that is not allowed under ALPA merger policy. To go from the bottom to 50% overnight is a windfall, no matter when you were hired or what your length of service is! Now, the bottom AMWEST guy paired next to him (the USAir guy above) was a 3 mos. new hire and guess what he got...?...the bottom....no controversy there. So I don't know, neither bottom guy had any expectations of being anywhere but near the bottom of their respective seniority lists. To say that the bottom USAir guy "deserved" more based on DOH....I don't know.. I don't think so...DOES HE DESERVE A BETTER (or windfall) POSITION BECAUSE OF AIRPLANES, ROUTES ETC. THAT NEITHER HE NOR HIS PILOT GROUP NOR HIS COMPANY BROUGHT TO THE MERGER?-namely, the AMWEST airplanes and routes? Each airline brought roughly equivalent assets (except for international widebody, which was accounted for) to the merger...each should fly equivalent positions after the merger...

15 Year guy that was Recalled! Exactly My Point. This guy put 15 years of his life into USAIR and just because he was furloughed a New Hire at AWA should be senior to him? Get Real !!

USAIR had already made the tuff furloughs to try to be profitable. Their pilots gave up cold hard cash too. DOH is the way to go with this USAIR AWA deal.

There is no more AWA. Its all US Airways. Its one company. There should be one sensible seniority list.

 

[MCDU]

The bottom East guy was just the bottom guy for a short snap shot in 2005. It was not like he got hired in 1988 and was at the bottom his whole career like Dave Odell.

The 1988 DOH had almost 2000 pilots below them in 2001 and they are now are all line holders in 2008. Times change but not your DOH.

Good tread by the way.
I hope becket chimes in. He is my fav 2005 AWA New hire.

M

 

[cactusboy53]

And you are on the "Lucky Side" of things!

?? Going on 8 years now. Had AWA been left as is, I would have been a captain on reserve for the past 1.5 years, and US Air would have gone the way of Eastern, Pan Am, Braniff (1&2), etc. I count myself blessed that I presently get to keep my job (with 100% DH & Mechanical ).

Could you explain how an AWA pilot hired prior to the acquisition will be lucky if he is furloughed BEFORE a former US Air FURLOUGHED PILOT (with NO hope of returning to the ORIGINAL US Air EVER ...because they were 4 DAYS away from COMPLETE LIQUIDATION)??

When this acquisition occurred, I thought ....surely these US Air folks are reasonable...surely we can get this merger stuff done and put behind us so that we can concentrate on a new joint contract....surely this will go no further than the ALP merger process. Pretty funny, huh??

Our industry is under attack by greedy oil people and speculators. In fact, our entire US economy is being held hostage by these greedy people. So we are all being attacked externally. The AWA group is being attacked internally by their own "union" (and sued...albiet unsuccessfully at this time). Now where did I see that "beating a dead horse" icon????

 

[cactusboy53]

The bottom East guy was just the bottom guy for a short snap shot in 2005. It was not like he got hired in 1988 a was at the bottom his whole career like Dave Odell.

The 1988 DOH had almost 2000 pilots below them in 2001 and they are now are all line holders in 2008. Times change but not your DOH.

M

Final, meet Binding. Binding, meet Final.

M;
Is it true that you did not work for mainline prior to the acquisition??

 

[MCDU]

True. I was Mesa.

M

 

[MCDU]

Quote from Dave: Could you explain how an AWA pilot hired prior to the acquisition will be lucky if he is furloughed BEFORE a former US Air FURLOUGHED PILOT (with NO hope of returning to the ORIGINAL US Air EVER ...because they were 4 DAYS away from COMPLETE LIQUIDATION)??

Dave, that is B.S. No one would have loan us any money and we did not even start selling off assets. You do not loan money unless you see value in something. Try again. The fact is that with out this USAIR merger AWA would be history. Look where all the flying is being cut and where all the money was made.

M

 

[eaglesview]

Way to much weight put on a snapshot taken back in 2005. DOH is the only non subjective method. If USAPA puts up a fence to protect the west flying that should be it, end of story.

 

[pipejockey]

Thats right.. I don't. You guys merge with an airline and then destroy that airlines pilot group!!

Leave all those peeps out on the street. How does that feel?

Out on the street? What are you talking about? I heard about 400 of them went to Eagle and ended up doing to those guys what they were pissed AA was doing to them. Sheesh, talk about wanting your cake and eating it to.

 

[MCDU]

Thanks Eaglesview.
Its nice to see your support. Anybody who would have been in our situation would understand why the Nic would never work. ALPA or not. It does not matter. Alpa could have done nothing to get the list implemented anyway. Prater told me that the Nic would never see the light due the fact that it has to be approved my both groups.

M

 

[JetMonkey]

15 Year guy that was Recalled! Exactly My Point. This guy put 15 years of his life into USAIR and just because he was furloughed a New Hire at AWA should be senior to him? Get Real !!

USAIR had already made the tuff furloughs to try to be profitable. Their pilots gave up cold hard cash too. DOH is the way to go with this USAIR AWA deal.

There is no more AWA. Its all US Airways. Its one company. There should be one sensible seniority list.

You just answered your own question and didn't even realized it because your misinformed. Your right about there is no more AWA, well guess what? There's no more USAir neither. It's a totally new company with the same name that those 15 year guys came back to. That's why they were put behind actives, they didn't have any expectations to come back to the old USAir, and following ALPA merger policy, Nicalou placed them accordingly.

The list is fair.

 

[eaglesview]

Thanks Eaglesview.
Its nice to see your support. Anybody who would have been in our situation would understand why the Nic would never work. ALPA or not. It does not matter. Alpa could have done nothing to get the list implemented anyway. Prater told me that the Nic would never see the light due the fact that it has to be approved my both groups.

M

hopefully it gets worked out. I would not put any weight in what Prater says or any other ALPA exec.

PS any moment now someone will accuse us of being the same person.

 

[licorice]

15 Year guy that was Recalled! Exactly My Point. This guy put 15 years of his life into USAIR and just because he was furloughed a New Hire at AWA should be senior to him? Get Real !!

USAIR had already made the tuff furloughs to try to be profitable. Their pilots gave up cold hard cash too. DOH is the way to go with this USAIR AWA deal.

There is no more AWA. Its all US Airways. Its one company. There should be one sensible seniority list.

--just because--your husband was shot doesn't mean you shouldn't have enjoyed the play, Mrs. Lincoln. Raj, you seem to have ignored the rest of my post.... You make a pure emotional argument, which is no argument at all. DOH is an emotional argument.. answer this: Do the USAir pilots actually "deserve" (for whatever reason under the sun) better flying positions than they would have had prior to the merger BECAUSE of airplanes, routes, etc. that neither THEY nor their company brought to the merger? Do the AMWEST pilots, who have been flying their positions for years now, and have had every reasonable expectation to continue to do so, "deserve" now to fly lesser positions? Fences? It's funny, the only time I hear 'fences' is in conjunction with a DOH fanatic...DOH/with fences --seem to be joined at the hip. I ask all you DOH guys...why fences? ..Why not just go for the gold right out of the box!!...I mean..it's fair, right?DOH? --Fences are an ENTICEMENT, implicitly acknowledging the unfairness and unreasonableness of DOH. You can run but you can't hide from crappy seniority. DOH guys, the only reason you support DOH is because it will give you an advantage or windfall over a completely equivalent (or sometimes more than equivalent in terms of pay and benefits) pilot group..a pilot group that only expects to continue to fly what they can currently fly. (as should be everyones' REASONABLE expectation)