Senate, House Agree to Sixfold Boost in Airline Pilots' Flight Experience

[ratherbeflyen]

The free market system at it's best. Too many pilots chasing too few jobs, minimums go up and wages go down. If there are too many job's chasing too few pilots then minimums go down and wages go up. Remove the ability to lower the minimums and that only leaves one choice. If a regional finds it can't fill new hire classes they will pay more and/or give bonuses to attract new pilots. Everyone thinks of new hire cfi type applicants being the only ones who go to the regional level. I have many friends with 1000's of hours that are flying corporate, charter, air ambulance, forest service, etc. that would be willing to jump to 121 if first year pay was a livable wage. If your airline went out of business would you start applying to every 20k airline job or try to find something that had wages comparable to what you make now?

 

[JettBoii]

These diapers already have ******************** in em.

 

[General Lee]

I am hoping for an exemption for people coming out of accredited universites (ie: UND, SIU, Purdue, yes even Riddle...).

If there isn't one, the airlines will be hiring from overseas when the next pilot boom starts. That's something none of us want.

Not right away for foreigners. The current cargo dogs flying Caravans will be top prospects at regionals, but only if the wages go way up. I think the Fedex C208 drivers are paid fairly well, and $20,000 a year won't cut it. That will drive Regional expenses way up, and will limit their attractiveness to the legacies. The legacies will then decide to do some of the regional flying themselves flying smaller mainline planes, and that will increase mainline hiring. I also don't see foreign pilots coming into the mix. If Congress is getting tough on our US pilots, I would think it would make it hard for foreigners, like language tests and flying aptitude tests that won't be easy. One crash with a foreigner flying it, and that program would be over.

As far as the Empty Nipplers or Undies getting an exemption, that is what the lobbiests working for those Universities want, but it won't be easy. A lot of money can buy you those ratings, and that doesn't mean you are qualified to earn an ATP. When Regionals were hiring at 250 hours, those rich kids could slip in without the ATP and get "hands on experience" while flying 50 people in bad wx. That's not good. If there is an exemption, I hope it is still close to 1500 hours. That sure is better than 250 hours...


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ASApuppy]

This industry has transformed itself in the last decade. Remember when there was no puppy mill schools and you had to write a 5 figure check to get hired at a regional. As for flight time, in those days, if you did not have an ATP, you most likely did not even get an interview. Fast forward 10 years and we have 250 hr wonders who did all their training in some glass cockpit C172 which the puppy mill school owes $500k for. Obviously, flight schools need to re-fleet themselves back to low cost, reliable, used airplanes. There have to be students to teach in order for CFI's to build their time. Those new pilots have to have an economical means to continue their flying.

Now, the next big play, IMO, is what happens with mainline scope in this next round of contracts. The first round has to come from what happens in the integration of the CAL, UAL scopes. Unless you are already a widebody CA, I think your career path will be affected by how the line is redrawn in the sand.

So, where does this leave us? I would love to know how many resumes the Regionals have on file? Forever, it has been managements goal to have the Regionals be a 5 year stint. Get your time and move on. Throw in 9/11, 1st downturn, age 65, 2nd downturn and you have the average RJ driver has 12 yrs in. I made a career change a dozen years ago when wages at the top of the industry exceeded $325k/yr. With it 30% less now, there are fewer than ever willing to make a jump. 4 years at Embry Riddle and all the flight training will set you back almost a quarter of a million bucks. I don't have that coin to send my kid there nor would I allow a loan for that amount, even if you could get one. Retirements are around the corner. Attrition will once again happen. But, how many will make the jump to the majors? ASA management has recently spouted off dreams of being some "Super Regional". Combine that with a relaxed scope and this 12 year guy would be hard pressed to move on.

I would also be very vocal with my union reps if allow new hires to receive huge raises or bonuses with out more senior pilots getting theirs. So, what are the options? Does regional management want to slow down attrition when it starts, or encourage it. It all hinges on how many are out there qualified and willing.

 

[samballs]

You mean I gots to sit in a 172 for another 1000 hours?

Just pen it in!

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

These diapers already have ******************** in em.

"we're real sorry bout that, go back there and getcha another package."

 

[Lynxman]

Just pen it in!

If I had no morals...

 

[johnpeace]

That will drive Regional expenses way up, and will limit their attractiveness to the legacies. The legacies will then decide to do some of the regional flying themselves flying smaller mainline planes, and that will increase mainline hiring.

Realistically, I don't think the kind of wage increases that will be required to attract qualified candidates (+$10K/yr?) are going to make the contract carriers so expensive that it would be more cost effective for mainline to just do the flying themselves.

- mainline pay rates for the same equipment will be higher
- mainline benefits packages are more expensive
- mainline furloughs/recalls are more expensive
- mainline maintenance on those planes is more expensive
- mainline FAs on those flights are more expensive
- those 'mainline RJ' pilots will gain seniority and become exponentially more expensive to maintain than contract carriers

...but wherever there's a 'mainline will take the domestic flying back' angle, we know we can count on you to see it...real or imagined.

New starts aren't down because regional first year pay is low...they're down because the brass ring of major airline employment has turned into a turd.

 

[Salukipilot4590]

Thanks Christ!

I was nowhere hear ready to fly a shiny jet at 700 hours...I mean come on...I just graduated from the best (non tool) flight college in the universe and there I was...flying something to mind-bogglingly advanced that my brain could have exploded.

Thank you so much for putting the roadblock in place to keep unsafe pilots like the 22 year old me from the controls of the HIGHLY complicated and advanced Embraer ERJ-145.

Oh lawdy sir I swear I shouldn't have gone an touched that there Embraer at my low time!

(seriously though...I kinda support this....should be ATP though not just 1500 hours)

 

[General Lee]

Realistically, I don't think the kind of wage increases that will be required to attract qualified candidates (+$10K/yr?) are going to make the contract carriers so expensive that it would be more cost effective for mainline to just do the flying themselves.

- mainline pay rates for the same equipment will be higher
- mainline benefits packages are more expensive
- mainline furloughs/recalls are more expensive
- mainline maintenance on those planes is more expensive
- mainline FAs on those flights are more expensive
- those 'mainline RJ' pilots will gain seniority and become exponentially more expensive to maintain than contract carriers

...but wherever there's a 'mainline will take the domestic flying back' angle, we know we can count on you to see it...real or imagined.

New starts aren't down because regional first year pay is low...they're down because the brass ring of major airline employment has turned into a turd.

This hour increase for minimums is just the beginning. Add future fatigue rules which are next, and regionals will not be able to do stand up overnights (min 10 hour layovers are rumored), etc. The Regionals will become less and less efficient, and again the mainline carriers will finally decide it is better to keep it "inhouse". As far as taking back regional flying, most of the recent givebacks by mainline pilots were due to BK, and since then 50 seaters have been deemed "too expensive", and now that most airlines aren't in BK, scope will stick. Add CAL/UAL bringing in tougher scope language in their new joint contract most likely, and DL asking ALPA for 100 seaters and not getting it, shows pilots are more serious about not losing scope, while watching 50 seaters go away. Just because you want to stay at a regional and have no other real aspirations, doesn't mean you have to keep your head in the clouds. Are you a disgruntled furlough from a legacy? If so, mount back up and find a good job. Don't settle for being disgruntled and thinking everything out there is a "turd." You sound like you are turning into one.

And I guess you haven't been paying attention to the latest financials of the airline business. Earnings are up, and if you have been around long enough you would know that this business goes in cycles. When airlines are doing well, employees do a bit better around contract time. When airlines aren't doing well, they don't. Things are currently on an upswing, and some contracts are coming due soon. That means good things for pilots. Also, new work and fatigue rules will create a need for higher paid pilots, and that helps everyone. Get off your duff Cletus and find a new job and attitude, or just leave and do something else.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[BoilerUP]

...so exactly when are those new fatigue (duty/rest) rules coming, again?

Besides, CDOs are not inherently unsafe - how their utilized by a company is what makes them unsafe.

 

[General Lee]

...so exactly when are those new fatigue (duty/rest) rules coming, again?

Besides, CDOs are not inherently unsafe - how their utilized by a company is what makes them unsafe.

It's still locked up in the aviation safety sub comittee, but just like these new hiring minimums, they will be addressed eventually. There is no doubt the ATA is lobbying the heck out of the panel members, but the friends and family of those who died on the Colgan flight will contiue to press them until it is complete.

And CDOs are liked by some, hated by others, but you can't argue with science. A min of 10 hours of rest behind the door is just safer than a CDO. If someone can't afford day care for their 3 kids and need to be home during the day while the wife works, then they should have applied to a major sooner, instead of being stuck doing CDOs for the rest of his/her life and staying poor. And if all else fails, then play Powerball. You can't win if you don't play!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[BoilerUP]

It's still locked up in the aviation safety sub comittee, but just like these new hiring minimums, they will be addressed eventually.

I'm sure folks have been saying that for the past two decades...maybe you're right and this time something will change.

Maybe.

And CDOs are liked by some, hated by others, but you can't argue with science. A min of 10 hours of rest behind the door is just safer than a CDO.

A CDO isn't any different than the flying FedEx/UPS/AirNet/etc. do, or doctors/nurses/police/firefighters do - its just night shift work.

If companies schedule CDOs solely as night shift work, then there's nothing about them that is unsafe - the human body's circadian rhythm adjusts. On the other hand, if a company backs them up to regular parings or has crews flying turns before or after the start of the CDO turn, then yes that is quite unsafe and needs to be addressed by regulation.

 

[General Lee]

I'm sure folks have been saying that for the past two decades...maybe you're right and this time something will change.

Maybe.



A CDO isn't any different than the flying FedEx/UPS/AirNet/etc. do, or doctors/nurses/police/firefighters do - its just night shift work.

If companies schedule CDOs solely as night shift work, then there's nothing about them that is unsafe - the human body's circadian rhythm adjusts. On the other hand, if a company backs them up to regular parings or has crews flying turns before or after the start of the CDO turn, then yes that is quite unsafe and needs to be addressed by regulation.

I bet Fedex and UPS don't want new rules or regs either. It will be done with science in mind, and that may help or hurt some airlines. 9 hour turns will probably be allowed, but this time with certain departure times and arrival times. Lots of interesting stuff, and these old rules were made in the 1950s when airlines weren't even doing half of what they are now. But, there are people who don't want change, and they are probably lobbying big time their views.

And I know what a CDO is, and it will be interesting to see how the panel handles that. 4 hours in a hotel at night just doesn't do it, but neither does a 6 hour break in a lounge waiting for your next flight out between flights. Science will have to show what is safest.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[pilotyip]

Unintented consquences

That will drive Regional expenses way up, and will limit their attractiveness to the legacies. The legacies will then decide to do some of the regional flying themselves flying smaller mainline planes, and that will increase mainline hiring. I also don't see foreign pilots coming into the mix. If Congress is getting tough on our US pilots, I would think it would make it hard for foreigners, like language tests and flying aptitude tests that won't be easy. One crash with a foreigner flying it, and that program would be over.

Bye Bye--General Lee

You are missing an important part of the equation. The marginal ticket buyer, you know the one who buys the 90 day advance $99 ticket, will elect not to travel on the airlines. I know it is hard to imagine anyone would elect to drive when they could fly. But a lot of people do it. The market and individual self-interest will dictate what wages should be. The airline do not have the profit margins to raise wages without raising ticket prices. It is basic economics, if you raise the price of commodity, less people will purchase that commodity. With less people purchasing there is not as much demand for that commodity, therefore there will be fewer, but better paid pilots. As with many regulations, good for senior, not so good for everyone else. BTW yea like back in the early 90's as a 10K hour pilot I could not apply at American Eagle because I did not have 500 hours in the last year, I only had 450 PIC in a AC-690.