Senate, House Agree to Sixfold Boost in Airline Pilots' Flight Experience

[resetjet]

So, if you were paid more, you'd be more safe?

Simple answer: YES. Commuting to a base you can't afford to live in or working 2 jobs takes a toll!

 

[JustaNumber]

Although, this has already been stated time and again...The real issue at-hand with regional airline pilots isn't the experience level or training. It's quality of life, pay, benefits, etc...

I believe you are confusing the primary problem with the regional airline industry with your primary problem with the regional airline industry. From your perspective the compensation is your biggest problem, but from a passenger's perspective the experience and maturity of the guys up front is paramount. Are the two related? Probably. But there are plenty of industries that prove that poorly compensated individuals can be the best in the world at what they do, if they just have the right attitude. Think police, military, graduate research students, etc. I agree with livin'thesim's understanding that attitude is far more important than any compensation could ever be. (Not that I don't want a bigger paycheck!) Overall, even though there will be unintended consequences to this bill, I think it is appropriate and will overall be helpful.

By the way, hats off to all the intelligent, well-articulated posts here. Am I still on FI, or did we accidentally get sent to some other website?

 

[johnpeace]

Think police

Are you serious?

Dude, if we had the same success rate as the police, the landscape would be littered with smoking craters!

 

[Poahi]

So, if you were paid more, you'd be more safe?

It's a fair question although if you aren't safe you shouldn't fly.

But keep in mind, there are a lot of highly paid pilots with not such great schedules who commute. If you were given a huge raise would you move to EWR, IAD, ORD etc...? To me, the more I earn, the more likely I'm going to live where I want. The bottom line for the regionals is do you want to bid for a career or a lifestyle? Because most in cases, you can't have both.

 

[livin'thesim]

So, if you were paid more, you'd be more safe?

Absolutely.

I was paid more, I could afford to work less. Eventually i would be so rich that I would never have to fly.

Now what's safer than that?

 

[Motown]

So, if you were paid more, you'd be more safe?

I think you're missing the point.

When wages and benefits are high, the career attracts a higher caliber of applicant. Employers can afford to reject a higher percentage of applicants and cherry-pick the best ones.

The industry competes with other industries with similar compensation & lifestyles for applicants-- a career that pays six figures will attract entrants who have the skill set and aptitude to earn six figures in other disciplines, but a career that pays in the low five figures will attract entrants who have the skill set and aptitude to earn low five figures in other disciplines.

 

[CX880]

I think you're missing the point.

When wages and benefits are high, the career attracts a higher caliber of applicant. Employers can afford to reject a higher percentage of applicants and cherry-pick the best ones.

The industry competes with other industries with similar compensation & lifestyles for applicants-- a career that pays six figures will attract entrants who have the skill set and aptitude to earn six figures in other disciplines, but a career that pays in the low five figures will attract entrants who have the skill set and aptitude to earn low five figures in other disciplines.

If what you're saying is true then airplanes should be falling out of the sky right now.

It's called supply and demand, the only way pay will go up is if there's high demand and little supply. The good news is that supply will dwindle in the future if compensation levels stay the same.

 

[Long Time Gone]

So, if you were paid more, you'd be more safe?

I was just thinking the same thing. Obviously being paid more, having a better quality of life, better schedules, slicker hair, and pants pulled down to your butt yet hemmed appropriately make you a better and safer pilot. As long as you have $100K to fork out for that DC-9 type rating at CAPT or FSI, that's ALL that matters.

 

[Long Time Gone]

Simple answer: YES. Commuting to a base you can't afford to live in or working 2 jobs takes a toll!

Then find a local job so you won't have to commute. Either that, or quit whining. Commuting is ALWAYS an option, not a necessity. If you do commute, then commute with a brain. IOW, leave the day prior to your reserve or trip period, as to get enough sleep the night prior to your trip or reserve period. Red-eyeing in has to be one of the most irresponsible things I have ever heard of, especially with a 7am duty in time.

 

[doh]

I would also be very vocal with my union reps if allow new hires to receive huge raises or bonuses with out more senior pilots getting theirs. [/QUOTE]

This my friend is why this industry sucks..You can't have yours unless I get mine.

What about the guys that had to PFT to get on in the late 90's-00's. Should the old guys get their training money back? Different times, different market.[/QUOTE]

Collective bargaining means that management can't just selectively bump pay for one group. The CBA has to be amended if they want to hand out bonuses or otherwise increase compensation. If management believes the compensation is too low, then it is too low for everyone. Do you really believe that a first year FO should make more than a third year FO?

 

[JoeMerchant]

And the point is that if WE, AS EXPERIENCED PILOTS owned our own jets, we wouldn't do what these owners and small operators are doing. This legislation would put the regulations in line with what a SMART owner operator should be doing. If those owners and business owners want to plop a 250 hour pilot in their cockpits to save a buck and let our future airline pilots practice with their lives in the cabin, so be it.

ualdriver...Didn't United hire some 350 hour pilots to "check a box"? This is a step in the right direction, but I doubt ALPA will dare bring this issue up with regards to affirmative action and political correctness...

 

[Motown]

If what you're saying is true then airplanes should be falling out of the sky right now.

I disagree. I never said that the career isn't attracting entrants capable of doing the job. I said the career is attracting entrants who have the skill set and aptitude to earn low five figures in other disciplines.


There are different levels of capability:

1. When the career is attracting applicants who could otherwise be earning $150,000 to $300,000 practicing law, medicine, executive management, etc., the applicants' skill sets & aptitudes will be such that they have the capability to be great pilots. Conversely, when the career is attracting applicants who could otherwise be earning $35,000 to $65,000 as a civil servant, sales account manager, distribution supervisor, etc., the applicants' skill sets & aptitudes will be such that they have the capability to be mediocre pilots.
2. When an employer can afford to reject 90% of their applicants, they will hire mostly great pilots (the top 10%). When an employer can only afford to reject 25% of their applicants, they will hire mostly mediocre pilots (the middle 50%).

Note that mediocre does not equal planes falling out of the sky. It simply means that there is a reduced margin of safety. If the career ever got to the point where it was attracting applicants who could otherwise be earning $15,000 to $19,000 as a part time cashiers, day laborers, etc., (possibly by hiring pilots to be part time, such as being hired-- and paid-- to only fly a single round trip one day a week with no benefits) the applicants' skill sets & aptitudes will be such that they have the capability to be poor pilots. This is when we would likely see planes falling out of the skies... or more likely pilots who quit rather than working holiday weekends or during bad weather because they could replace their income quickly & easily.

Again, I theorized that low pay & benefits & lifestyle = lower caliber pilots, not incapable pilots.

 

[ualdriver]

ualdriver...Didn't United hire some 350 hour pilots to "check a box"? This is a step in the right direction, but I doubt ALPA will dare bring this issue up with regards to affirmative action and political correctness...

Yup, they did (and probably will in the future) hire pilots to check a box. They also hired low time interns as well, some with only a few hundred hours. The interns generally went through several layers of screening however, unlike the other categories.

ALPA does not control hiring at UAL although they do participate. ALPA could bring up the fact that they don't like "check the box" hiring, but I suspect the company would prefer to avoid another lawsuit than to listen to ALPA or anyone else.

http://articles.latimes.com/1988-09-13/news/mn-2083_1_united-airlines

 

[pilotyip]

I disagree. I never said that the career isn't attracting entrants capable of doing the job. I said the career is attracting entrants who have the skill set and aptitude to earn low five figures in other discipline.........ey could replace their income quickly & easily.

Again, I theorized that low pay & benefits & lifestyle = lower caliber pilots, not incapable pilots.

So we should make an ACT score of 28 or SAT of 1200 as mins to hold an ATP. These are the kind of guys who become Doc's Engineers, etc. Then nothing but serious gray matter in the cockpit, most likely cause a real shortage that would have to drive up wages.

 

[surplus1]

BoilerUP:

Thank you for reading my post and for understanding what I was trying to say – even if you don’t agree completely.

Regionals need more "lifers" like Surplus1 (who is now retired) to inform the younger pilots "what's good for them", even though the lifers (the minority) have their own agendas which often do not benefit the majority at all. Yeah, more LIFERS, that's the ticket. And while you're at it, if you see one, ask him/her why after getting the necessary PIC, they never did try to get an interview at a Major or LCC. That's always interesting.

You mean that regionals need more lifers to "LEARN" those newbies how to do things the lifers want, especially when it only benefits the lifers? Please show how I "exemplified" Surplus1's point. What we need are less RJs, more mainline, and one level of safety, rather than 240 hour Empty Nipple pilots flying RJs. We don't let recent medical school grads to do open heart surgery, do we? When lives are at stake, we need experience, and thanks to Surplus1 staying at Comair for 30 years, we had it there, until now I guess?

Bye Bye--General Lee

General Lee:

Congratulations for being your normal self - the self-centered snob who thinks that being employed by Delta Airlines somehow makes you God’s special gift to aviation; the guy who never misses a chance to say something derogatory about somebody else.

I have some recommendations for you General: 1) Once in a while try sticking to the subject matter instead of looking for ways to degrade those you consider to be inferior to you. It’s really tacky and adds little to the discourse. 2) Don’t talk about those things that you really know nothing about. If you’re just quiet most of the world won’t learn that you really have little of substance to say. 3) Stop trying to disparage regional pilots. Too many of them have as much or more to contribute than you do.

A) Yes, I retired from Comair some 10 years ago. B) No, I did not work there 30 years or anything close to that; I only worked there 12 years. C) Many of the finest airmen I’ve ever had the opportunity to meet were at Comair and many of them still are. D) I’m not ashamed of them or of having worked with them; I’m quite proud of it. So, your derogatory remarks about “lifers” and about CMR are of no avail whatever. Spare yourself the time and effort. E) While there I also met some people that were less than desirable just as I did in places where I worked before Comair. Nearly all of them left voluntarily for the majors or were run off by the good folks.

I know nothing about you other than what you write here and candidly I couldn’t care less. For all I know you’re a great pilot and will do well. On the other hand you could just as easily be a total dolt in the cockpit. Francis, I just don’t care.

However, based on what you write you come across to me as an arrogant, self-centered, know it all; a condition that often appears to reflect the culture of your airline. What’s more you seem to take pleasure in disparaging people that you consider to be less than you, many of whom are quite probably way above you. Get over yourself and make a contribution instead of just blowing your own horn louder and louder.

What’s more, most airline pilots that I have known from other airlines seem to share the general view that a great many Delta pilots are just like you: arrogant, self-centered blowhards. You’ve earned that reputation as a group, all over the industry and held it for years. .

I will qualify that by saying that I have indeed met some very fine people over the years who wore the Delta uniform. A lot of them were really Western pilots and a couple from old C & S, but mixed in there were also a few real Delta pilots. Most, like me, are now retired. What’s my point? We all have our share of people that just have to be rude to others. Unfortunately, your group’s culture seems to harbor more than its share. Perhaps that’s why you got to be the way you come across.

I have a suggestion: If every time you come in to a room full of ‘regional pilots” something smells – take a look at your own shoes.

I have no idea why you seem to be interested in whether or not I am what you call a “lifer”, or who I might have applied to work for at some point in time. It doesn’t seem to me that those things are of any interest to anyone, let alone relevant to the discussion. But, since you seem to want to know, I’ll tell you just enough to whet your appetite.
I was hired by Comair as a co-pilot in 1987. Before that year I didn’t even know they existed. I had already left my job as an ex-pat airline pilot and joined CMR because I missed wandering around in airplanes. I had already been an airline captain, in intercontinental service, for 17 years, in 4-engine equipment. I already had well over 20K hours in my logbook in a variety of transports and didn’t “need” to apply anywhere. I was also too old already. I just wanted to have some fun flying small airplanes again. I enjoyed every flying minute at CMR, but most of all I enjoyed and liked the fine pilots I met and worked with there. Hopefully I was able to help some of those I flew with to learn a few new things. They certainly were able to help me.

Now I don’t know what you were doing in the 60’s, 70’s or 80’s but my guess is you were still in diapers or if not, you didn’t even have a license when I got my first upgrade. Now that doesn’t mean that I’m smarter than you or that I know more than you do; I’m sure you’re very bright and that most, if not all of what you know now, you learned from seasoned captains, a good training department and applying yourself. If you don’t have a command as yet, hopefully you’ll get one soon and when you do, don’t let it go to your head like your job at Delta has. In the final analysis, you’re just another pilot – like the rest of us.

The point is simple: We all put our pants on one leg at a time. The most dangerous pilots are those who believe that they are too smart to learn something from a fellow airman, no matter how many “hours” he/she doesn’t have. Our clocks always start to run from zero hours, no matter where we happen to work and we all learn from others. My advice to you is simple: the first time you fly a turn and do not learn something that you didn’t know before; hang up the hat. It means you’re dangerous!

The bottom line is the same. First Officers don’t cause accidents. Captains do; especially the one’s that know too much.

 

[damnflyboy]

That...just...happened.

 

[Kaman]

I believe you are confusing the primary problem with the regional airline industry with your primary problem with the regional airline industry. From your perspective the compensation is your biggest problem, but from a passenger's perspective the experience and maturity of the guys up front is paramount. Are the two related? Probably. But there are plenty of industries that prove that poorly compensated individuals can be the best in the world at what they do, if they just have the right attitude. Think police, military, graduate research students, etc. I agree with livin'thesim's understanding that attitude is far more important than any compensation could ever be. (Not that I don't want a bigger paycheck!) Overall, even though there will be unintended consequences to this bill, I think it is appropriate and will overall be helpful.

By the way, hats off to all the intelligent, well-articulated posts here. Am I still on FI, or did we accidentally get sent to some other website?

I am not saying for one second that the level of proficiency or job performance is tied to how much I am paid. I am STILL a professional and do the job that I am trained to do to the best of my ability. At the end of the day, however, it is still the issues that I addressed in my post that truly determine the level of motivation many pilots feel toward this job, industry and vocation.
MONEY is the driving force behind business, and I am in the business of making money to support myself and my family. I don't feel that I should nor will I remain silent when I see the nonsense going on in this industry.

 

[urflyingme?!]

Anyone who says that broke, tired, angry pilots with no hope for a better future and no motivation for self-improvement are just as safe as a well-fed, rested, financially secure pilot with a bright career possible ahead of him is a dolt. I want to to kick you in the face.

 

[johnpeace]

Anyone who says that broke, tired, angry pilots with no hope for a better future and no motivation for self-improvement are just as safe as a well-fed, rested, financially secure pilot with a bright career possible ahead of him is a dolt.

So, which airline do you work for to attain 'financially secure with a bright career possible ahead of him'?

I work at ASA and am about to go back to work after being furloughed for 19 months and I am 'well-fed, rested, financially secure pilot with a bright career possible ahead of him'.

This is, at best, a really good part time job...like being a firefighter.

Have something else that you do that makes you money...this sh-it's too fickle to be your only livelihood!

 

[CX880]

Anyone who says that broke, tired, angry pilots with no hope for a better future and no motivation for self-improvement are just as safe as a well-fed, rested, financially secure pilot with a bright career possible ahead of him is a dolt. I want to to kick you in the face.

I don't agree with that, maybe at Mesa. That's why no one flys them. Management can take away your dignity but never your professionalism, at the end of the day you are still responsible for the safety of grand parents, kids, dogs, business men, beef jerky in the cargo hold etc. you owe it to them to at least stay focused and put your hardships aside for that flight even if you are hungry and on your 14th hour.