Senate, House Agree to Sixfold Boost in Airline Pilots' Flight Experience

[Time Served]

Flying when you want to versus flying when you have to are completely different levels of experience.

Quote of the year!

 

[Lynxman]

What if I want to fly when its crappy out? How is that any different?

 

[General Lee]

You've got such a raging hard-on against Comair pilots that you really can't see it, can you? Here's his first paragraph, and part of the second, again:



He makes the great point that exactly zero regional airline accidents have been attributed to FOs with less than 1500tt, and that all recent regional airline accidents have been the direct result of the captain's actions (or inactions). He uses his professional experience to advocate for additional training after hiring at regional airlines, especially for captains, as a much better means to improve operational safety than an arbitrary minimum time requirement for newhire pilots.

He mentioned nothing about his career decisions, or those of other pilots, or any inferiority or superiority of those who decide to make their career at a "regional" airline.

You're the only one here talking about that nonsense.

Which directly relates back to his very first paragraph.

Set your hatred for regional pilots (and Comair pilots in particular) aside for just a minute and consider WTF the guy is advocating - better and continued training for new captains at regional airlines. OH THE HORROR



Nope...but a newly-minted MD on their internship can kill you just as dead with the wrong medication, a bad IV insertion, slip of the scalpel, or similar mistake as somebody with 30 years on the job. Which, when you think about it, isn't a hell of a lot different than flying airplanes...

Did the Colgan crash have an FO with less than 1500 hours? Looking at the tapes, sounds like the raising of the flaps without the Captain knowing it might have not helped the situation. Are you sure about your ZERO comment?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[BoilerUP]

Did the Colgan crash have an FO with less than 1500 hours? Looking at the tapes, sounds like the raising of the flaps without the Captain knowing it might have not helped the situation. Are you sure about your ZERO comment?

Yes, I'm sure about my ZERO comment - no recent regional airline crashes have been caused by or otherwise attributed to FOs with less than 1500 hours.

In the instance of Colgan, the FO had more than 1500 hours, and while her actions certainly wouldn't have helped the situation retracting the flaps wasn't what caused the plane to auger in - the CA pulling the yoke to his chest when the shaker fired did.

 

[CX880]

"As for the Colgan accident, the FO may have been inexperienced but that had nothing to do with the accident. The problem came about due to the inexperience of the Captain, not the FO, and he had way more than 1500 hours."


While I agree and stated in my post that the captain did create this problem and didn't manage it properly, I have to disagree and say the FO did in fact have something to do with this accident. If she hadn't changed the aircraft configuration during the stall the aircraft may have powered out of it. But, by raising the flaps on her own, she basically took away lift and added about 40 to 50 knots of speed to recover the aircraft. At 1800' above the ground, at night, in the clouds with an FO doing whatever they want, I doubt even a 25 year veteran captain could pull that one off. The NTSB faulting the captain and not the FO is just reminding us all who has the ultimate responsibility for the aircraft.

Good post. It's very ovious that the CA was completely ill trained but they might have been able to power out of it. The flaps up completely sealed the fate of that airplane.

 

[CX880]

In the instance of Colgan, the FO had more than 1500 hours, and while her actions certainly wouldn't have helped the situation retracting the flaps wasn't what caused the plane to auger in - the CA pulling the yoke to his chest when the shaker fired did.

Actually that is what caused the airpalne to augure in. It's the other way around, the CA did not help but the FO did worse. The purpose of having two warm bodies in the cockpit is so that they can double check eachother, not make things worse.

 

[Ground Loop]

[/QUOTE] I would also be very vocal with my union reps if allow new hires to receive huge raises or bonuses with out more senior pilots getting theirs. [/QUOTE]

This my friend is why this industry sucks..You can't have yours unless I get mine.

What about the guys that had to PFT to get on in the late 90's-00's. Should the old guys get their training money back? Different times, different market.

 

[Long Time Gone]

Actually that is what caused the airpalne to augure in. It's the other way around, the CA did not help but the FO did worse. The purpose of having two warm bodies in the cockpit is so that they can double check eachother, not make things worse.

We can all "Monday morning Quarterback" all we want. The fact of the matter is, putting the flaps up put the nail in the coffin. It did nothing but take a horrible situation that was as close to deadly as possible and make it a deadly situation. Did she cause it? No, but she helped end it. Anyone with even a hint of understanding knows that the first rule in stall recovery is to NOT change the configuration of the aircraft until the stall is recovered. He was in a spin when she put them up.

As for the 1500 hour rule, I just flew a trip with a "250 hour wonder child" who has been with us for 3 years and on reserve the whole time. Even after 3 years, his usage of the radio sucks, his abidance with SOPs sucks, his respect for limitations sucks, and overall, his pilotage sucks. I shouldn't have to babysit someone who has been with an airline for 3 years. A 121 regional carrier is NOT the place for anyone who needs more time in a cockpit, regardless of how much money they've spent.

 

[livin'thesim]

There will almost certainly be a small amount of safety improvement from this change.

What surplus doesn't get is that when a regional job is available so soon after getting the commercial certificate, it can encourage a shortcut-oriented mindset to new pilots.

Sure, some pilots will fly in circles in a 152 for 1250 hours to get to 1500.

But the rest will need to find some experience, like most of did in the old days.

And if you think that a 500 hour pilot can't benefit from another 500 hours of teaching in a 172, then you probably were never an airline instructor.


You can throw all the training you want at a 500 hour guy.

But the ODDS are that the 1000 hour guy will absorb more of it. Not ALL of the time, but certainly MOST of the time.

 

[livin'thesim]

What boilerup does not get is that it is the weak 250-hour wonder that develops into the weak 1500 hour pilot who screws up.

Just because you place a weak airman in the cockpit at 250 hours does not mean that circumstances will occur immediately that cause an incident.

It might take a few years before they are placed in a situation where their weakness will be exposed.

Weak parts don't always fail immediately. They fail in unexpected ways, and at a lower threshold of stress.


Additionally, the maturing of airmanship skills can get severely stunted by moving someone up to an advanced airplane too quickly.

That is probably the case with Renslow. Reading about his history suggests someone too concerned with the GOAL of getting to an airline cockpit, and not concerned enough with respecting the PROCESS of becoming worthy of that position.


Raising the bar on minimum flight time is at least a start in telling these people that an airline job is SUPPOSED to be a serious thing, not a place for them to try to finish their instrument rating.