Senate, House Agree to Sixfold Boost in Airline Pilots' Flight Experience

[BoilerUP]

...so exactly when are those new fatigue (duty/rest) rules coming, again?

Besides, CDOs are not inherently unsafe - how their utilized by a company is what makes them unsafe.

 

[General Lee]

...so exactly when are those new fatigue (duty/rest) rules coming, again?

Besides, CDOs are not inherently unsafe - how their utilized by a company is what makes them unsafe.

It's still locked up in the aviation safety sub comittee, but just like these new hiring minimums, they will be addressed eventually. There is no doubt the ATA is lobbying the heck out of the panel members, but the friends and family of those who died on the Colgan flight will contiue to press them until it is complete.

And CDOs are liked by some, hated by others, but you can't argue with science. A min of 10 hours of rest behind the door is just safer than a CDO. If someone can't afford day care for their 3 kids and need to be home during the day while the wife works, then they should have applied to a major sooner, instead of being stuck doing CDOs for the rest of his/her life and staying poor. And if all else fails, then play Powerball. You can't win if you don't play!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[BoilerUP]

It's still locked up in the aviation safety sub comittee, but just like these new hiring minimums, they will be addressed eventually.

I'm sure folks have been saying that for the past two decades...maybe you're right and this time something will change.

Maybe.

And CDOs are liked by some, hated by others, but you can't argue with science. A min of 10 hours of rest behind the door is just safer than a CDO.

A CDO isn't any different than the flying FedEx/UPS/AirNet/etc. do, or doctors/nurses/police/firefighters do - its just night shift work.

If companies schedule CDOs solely as night shift work, then there's nothing about them that is unsafe - the human body's circadian rhythm adjusts. On the other hand, if a company backs them up to regular parings or has crews flying turns before or after the start of the CDO turn, then yes that is quite unsafe and needs to be addressed by regulation.

 

[General Lee]

I'm sure folks have been saying that for the past two decades...maybe you're right and this time something will change.

Maybe.



A CDO isn't any different than the flying FedEx/UPS/AirNet/etc. do, or doctors/nurses/police/firefighters do - its just night shift work.

If companies schedule CDOs solely as night shift work, then there's nothing about them that is unsafe - the human body's circadian rhythm adjusts. On the other hand, if a company backs them up to regular parings or has crews flying turns before or after the start of the CDO turn, then yes that is quite unsafe and needs to be addressed by regulation.

I bet Fedex and UPS don't want new rules or regs either. It will be done with science in mind, and that may help or hurt some airlines. 9 hour turns will probably be allowed, but this time with certain departure times and arrival times. Lots of interesting stuff, and these old rules were made in the 1950s when airlines weren't even doing half of what they are now. But, there are people who don't want change, and they are probably lobbying big time their views.

And I know what a CDO is, and it will be interesting to see how the panel handles that. 4 hours in a hotel at night just doesn't do it, but neither does a 6 hour break in a lounge waiting for your next flight out between flights. Science will have to show what is safest.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[pilotyip]

Unintented consquences

That will drive Regional expenses way up, and will limit their attractiveness to the legacies. The legacies will then decide to do some of the regional flying themselves flying smaller mainline planes, and that will increase mainline hiring. I also don't see foreign pilots coming into the mix. If Congress is getting tough on our US pilots, I would think it would make it hard for foreigners, like language tests and flying aptitude tests that won't be easy. One crash with a foreigner flying it, and that program would be over.

Bye Bye--General Lee

You are missing an important part of the equation. The marginal ticket buyer, you know the one who buys the 90 day advance $99 ticket, will elect not to travel on the airlines. I know it is hard to imagine anyone would elect to drive when they could fly. But a lot of people do it. The market and individual self-interest will dictate what wages should be. The airline do not have the profit margins to raise wages without raising ticket prices. It is basic economics, if you raise the price of commodity, less people will purchase that commodity. With less people purchasing there is not as much demand for that commodity, therefore there will be fewer, but better paid pilots. As with many regulations, good for senior, not so good for everyone else. BTW yea like back in the early 90's as a 10K hour pilot I could not apply at American Eagle because I did not have 500 hours in the last year, I only had 450 PIC in a AC-690.

 

[buscap]

My hope is the majors get huge pay raises in their next contract!!!

Raise the bar and rising tides!!!

 

[johnpeace]

My hope is the majors get huge pay raises in their next contract!!!

Raise the bar and rising tides!!!

That'd be great for everyone!

 

[jmreii]

The free market system at it's best. Too many pilots chasing too few jobs, minimums go up and wages go down. If there are too many job's chasing too few pilots then minimums go down and wages go up. Remove the ability to lower the minimums and that only leaves one choice. If a regional finds it can't fill new hire classes they will pay more and/or give bonuses to attract new pilots. Everyone thinks of new hire cfi type applicants being the only ones who go to the regional level. I have many friends with 1000's of hours that are flying corporate, charter, air ambulance, forest service, etc. that would be willing to jump to 121 if first year pay was a livable wage. If your airline went out of business would you start applying to every 20k airline job or try to find something that had wages comparable to what you make now?

A person who understands the business world!

 

[johnpeace]

The free market system at it's best.

Where corporations like airline holding companies hire lobbyists to dictate to congress and government administrations what the policies are going to look like?

If there are too many job's chasing too few pilots then minimums go down and wages go up. Remove the ability to lower the minimums and that only leaves one choice.

Right, lobby congress to force the FAA to allow ab-initio training for newhires.

I don't see higher pay for newhires (or anyone else) at airlines in my crystal ball. Just more back-room influence peddling to subvert the free market and manipulate the labor market into being what they need it to be in order to operate 'efficiently' and maximize their shareholder return, profits and bonuses.

A person who understands the business world!

In the most 'FoxNews' sense of the word 'understand'.

 

[CMRJetDriver]

"The National Transportation Safety Board this year said Colgan Captain Marvin Renslow caused the crash by incorrectly responding to a stall warning in the cockpit."


While Marvin Renslow did not monitor the situation after the gear was lowered and airspeed decreased it appears he did respond correctly by increasing power after the stick shaker activated. What he failed to do was control the situation after the power was increased. The transcripts show the FO changed the aircraft configuration (all by herself and without any direction from the captain) during the stall. This just made matters worse as the aircraft would need even more speed for recovery. Set maximum power, don't change the aircraft configuration and wait for an increase in speed and a positive rate of climb. The Q400 has more than enough power to recover once the stick shaker activates.

Interesting comment from the FO about four minutes before they did crash.

22:12:05.0

HOT-2

I've never seen icing conditions. I've never deiced. I've never seen any—

I've never experienced any of that. I don't want to have to experience that
and make those kinds of calls. you know I'dve freaked out. I'dve have like​

seen this much ice and thought oh my gosh we were going to crash.

22:16:21.2
HOT-2 ​

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gear's down.

22:16:23.5
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HOT-1 ​

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flaps fifteen before landing checklist.

22:16:26.0
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CAM ​

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[sound similar to flap handle movement]

22:16:26.6
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HOT-2 ​

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uhhh.

22:16:27.4
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CAM ​

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[sound similar to stick shaker lasting 6.7 seconds]

22:16:27.7​

HOT [sound similar to autopilot disconnect horn repeats until end of recording]

SOURCE CONTENT SOURCE CONTENT
DCA09MA027
CVR Factual Report
Page 12-63
22:16:27.9
CAM ​

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[sound of click]

22:16:31.1
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CAM ​

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[sound similar to increase in engine power]

22:16:34.8
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HOT-1 ​

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Jesus Christ.

22:16:35.4
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CAM ​

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[sound similar to stick shaker lasting until end of recording]

22:16:37.1
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HOT-2 ​

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I put the flaps up.

22:16:40.2
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CAM ​

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[sound of two clicks]

22:16:42.2
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HOT-1 ​

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[sound of grunt] *ther bear.

22:16:45.8
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HOT-2 ​

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should the gear up?

22:16:46.8
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HOT-1 ​

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gear up oh #.

22:16:50.1
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CAM ​

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[increase in ambient noise]

22:16:51.9
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HOT-1 ​

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we're down.

22:16:51.9
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CAM ​

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[sound of thump]

22:16:52.0​

HOT-2 we're [sound of scream]
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[CX880]

Interesting comment from the FO about four minutes before they did crash.

22:12:05.0

HOT-2

I've never seen icing conditions. I've never deiced. I've never seen any—

I've never experienced any of that. I don't want to have to experience that
and make those kinds of calls. you know I'dve freaked out. I'dve have like​

seen this much ice and thought oh my gosh we were going to crash.



​

Actually that's not exactly a bad thing for her. She's just no experienced. That's why the CA is there. We all had to experience ICE at some point and we've all had to scare ourselves at one point. She was just making a point that she would not be comfortable upgrading quickly because she wanted more experience. What's wrong with that? Now, the fact that she put the flaps up when the nose was pointed towards Saturn is another matter.

 

[A-V-8]

I’ll throw in my one cent worth. I can’t afford two cents as an F.O. at Mesa. The baby boomers are starting to retire. They represent well over half of the current legacy pilots. I have a book that I got at a Kit Darby seminar back in 2008 when he was traveling around doing the seminar thing. Half of the current major airline pilots will reach 65 by 2018. That is a lot of #s. When the attrition starts again in 2013 the flood gates will open again. It had already started back in 2008 and 6 regionals were hiring pilots with multi commercials. Mesa, Eagle, Great Lakes, Pinnacle, and two more that I don’t remember. They had lowered the standards as low as they could be lowered. When the attrition starts again regional types will move on to majors or jobs being vacated by furloughed pilots and the regionals will start to hire. If you think we have problems now wait until some guy who has been flying laps in a 172 for 5 or 6 years finally gets on with a regional. He will work practically for free if he has to just to move a step up. High time instructors salivating over a job on a jet will be our worst nightmare. They will believe the same things that we all did at some point. Go to a regional and FedEx will be begging you to work for them a year or so later. Your mail box will fill up with offers from Majors as soon as you meet their minimums. When the attrition starts it will be the tip of the iceberg for our problems. Of course Karma will come full circle. Those high time instructors are teaching mostly foreign students right now. Not a lot of guys to fill their slots as instructors right now. The high time instructors will move on and then the fun will begin. I estimate around Dec 2014. That is when the attrition at majors is roughly equal to the # of furloughed guys. The well will run dry. It will no longer take a few months for the market to produce a 121 pilot. It will take around 2 years. Also Sally Mae will not finance ratings. More folks are unable to pay for pilot ratings for their kids due to the recession and it will be almost impossible to get financing. Raise the pay LOL. You can offer them the moon. There will be not pilots. No pilots for years. The regionals will have a shortage of labor. As far as the majors go: Sky Bus offered 65K for a line check airman on the Bus and there was a line out the door to work there. No shortage at the majors level because regional guys will always line up when they start accepting resumes. The regional’s that don’t pay well or treat people fairly will not be able to retain pilots. They will be toast. The higher labor cost at the regional pilot level will result in majors consolidating say 2 CRJ 700 turns into one Airbus turn. Regional’s will become smaller and fly fewer passengers.

The shortage will be regional in nature.

As far as foreign pilots in the United States, so some Chinese pilot will head here to make 22K instead of 100K in China. Yea that makes perfect sense to me. I doubt any foreign pilots will come here to fly. We are already the sweat shop laborers of the airline industry.

Also: If a regional is unionized the company can’t give a bonus to anyone without the Unions Approval. That will be huge leverage for a new contract.

That’s about all I saw that I wanted to address in this thread. Does anyone know when we will know for sure if this thing will become law?

 

[surplus1]

I thought this new "rule" was supposed to be about safety? Based on your collective comments it isn't about safety and none of you care. The only thing you really care about is your imagined job opportunities and your potential pay. That's ok, but at least have the decency to stop pretending that you're interested in safety.

If this does become the new rule, it will do absolutely zero to improve safety and is typical of rules made by people in Congress who really know nothing about flying airplanes and never will. As for the union's "support" of this rule, those in power know very well that it has nothing to do with safety. It's all about money and job security. They are far more interested in their scope clause than in safety at some regional carrier.

As for the Colgan accident, the FO may have been inexperienced but that had nothing to do with the accident. The problem came about due to the inexperience of the Captain, not the FO, and he had way more than 1500 hours. He also had an ATP, which in terms of "experience" is a joke.

Take a look at the other regional accidents that preceded that one and you get the same result - an inexperienced "captain" allowed his aircraft to get into a position from which he couldn't recover. They were NOT the fault of the low time FO. All those "captains" had way more than 1500 hours as well as the proverbial ATP.

I wish one of you could tell me about one "regional" accident that was caused by the inexperience of the FO, as opposed to the incompetence or lack of judgement of the so-called Captain.

Why don't one of you tell me exactly what difference 1500 hours in the traffic pattern is going to make in the cockpit of an airliner? I'd really like to know.

What a new pilot needs is good training after he gets hired, not a few more hours tooling around in some light airplane before. Additionally, no training that the FO gets can make up for a weak and inexperienced person in command. Fix the problem in the left seat and the young guy in the right seat will live long enough to get the experience he/she needs for command.

The people that need the "experience" are the Captains, not the FO's. That's where the regionals fall short. They are forced to upgrade people to command when a high percentage have no business being there at all.

As for a basic ATP, it's meaningless as well. You buy the answers to a multiple-choce written, do a one hour oral on a light twin (it can even be an SEL) and make a few instrument approaches. How does that equate to what an airline captain or first officer should know? It doesn't.

The problem isn't in the right seat folks, it's in the left seat, and it's not because the pilot doesn't have an ATP. The "captains" all have ATP's.

The only reason the same problem doesn't exist in the "majors" is because there are enough people on the "list" that you don't get to upgrade in 6 months or a year. By the time you do become a captain you'll have the experience you need. That won't zero the accident rate, there will always be pilot error. But, it does improve the odds.

Good training and adequate rest are WAY more important than 1500 hours. That doesn't get addressed because it costs money, plain and simple. Money is more important than safety and it always has been. That's nothing new.

If this new rule becomes law it will make it harder for a lot of young people to get a start, but it won't improve safety one iota.

 

[General Lee]

Regionals need more "lifers" like Surplus1 (who is now retired) to inform the younger pilots "what's good for them", even though the lifers (the minority) have their own agendas which often do not benefit the majority at all. Yeah, more LIFERS, that's the ticket. And while you're at it, if you see one, ask him/her why after getting the necessary PIC, they never did try to get an interview at a Major or LCC. That's always interesting.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[acpilot]

If any one part of the list gets a bonus, the entire list should get a bonus. That's the way it should work. Why not just redo all of our sections on pay/compensation?

If you're worth more, you should get more. If you're a base model pilot with 1,500 hrs, you're not worth as much as the guy with a PIC type or two and 5,000 hrs who has done more than just 121.

 

[BoilerUP]

I know the General loves to beat on regional pilots, especially lifers and double-especially Comair pilots...but do ya realize you just exemplified the point surplus1 made in his post?

 

[General Lee]

I know the General loves to beat on regional pilots, especially lifers and double-especially Comair pilots...but do ya realize you just exemplified the point surplus1 made in his post?

You mean that regionals need more lifers to "LEARN" those newbies how to do things the lifers want, especially when it only benefits the lifers? Please show how I "exemplified" Surplus1's point. What we need are less RJs, more mainline, and one level of safety, rather than 240 hour Empty Nipple pilots flying RJs. We don't let recent medical school grads to do open heart surgery, do we? When lives are at stake, we need experience, and thanks to Surplus1 staying at Comair for 30 years, we had it there, until now I guess?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[BoilerUP]

Please show how I "exemplified" Surplus1's point.

You've got such a raging hard-on against Comair pilots that you really can't see it, can you? Here's his first paragraph, and part of the second, again:

I thought this new "rule" was supposed to be about safety? Based on your collective comments it isn't about safety and none of you care. The only thing you really care about is your imagined job opportunities and your potential pay. That's ok, but at least have the decency to stop pretending that you're interested in safety.

If this does become the new rule, it will do absolutely zero to improve safety and is typical of rules made by people in Congress who really know nothing about flying airplanes and never will.

He makes the great point that exactly zero regional airline accidents have been attributed to FOs with less than 1500tt, and that all recent regional airline accidents have been the direct result of the captain's actions (or inactions). He uses his professional experience to advocate for additional training after hiring at regional airlines, especially for captains, as a much better means to improve operational safety than an arbitrary minimum time requirement for newhire pilots.

He mentioned nothing about his career decisions, or those of other pilots, or any inferiority or superiority of those who decide to make their career at a "regional" airline.

You're the only one here talking about that nonsense.

Which directly relates back to his very first paragraph.

Set your hatred for regional pilots (and Comair pilots in particular) aside for just a minute and consider WTF the guy is advocating - better and continued training for new captains at regional airlines. OH THE HORROR

We don't let recent medical school grads to do open heart surgery, do we?

Nope...but a newly-minted MD on their internship can kill you just as dead with the wrong medication, a bad IV insertion, slip of the scalpel, or similar mistake as somebody with 30 years on the job. Which, when you think about it, isn't a hell of a lot different than flying airplanes...

 

[kmox29]

And while you're at it, if you see one, ask him/her why after getting the necessary PIC, they never did try to get an interview at a Major or LCC. That's always interesting.

Ah yes. The "If you're not at a Major or LCC, then there's something wrong with you" mentality. Gotta love it.

 

[CMRJetDriver]

"As for the Colgan accident, the FO may have been inexperienced but that had nothing to do with the accident. The problem came about due to the inexperience of the Captain, not the FO, and he had way more than 1500 hours."


While I agree and stated in my post that the captain did create this problem and didn't manage it properly, I have to disagree and say the FO did in fact have something to do with this accident. If she hadn't changed the aircraft configuration during the stall the aircraft may have powered out of it. But, by raising the flaps on her own, she basically took away lift and added about 40 to 50 knots of speed to recover the aircraft. At 1800' above the ground, at night, in the clouds with an FO doing whatever they want, I doubt even a 25 year veteran captain could pull that one off. The NTSB faulting the captain and not the FO is just reminding us all who has the ultimate responsibility for the aircraft.