Scope, RJ's and unions

[csmith]

I'd be intersted to know what you know or have heard about the whole scope, RJDC, Delta MEC propositions, etc.

I'd love to provide some for you. As is the case with lawsuits and such, there is pretty much a gag order with talking about it. When I stated that people are shooting from the hip, it was just that--a statement.

Management WILL have their low cost structure one way or the other. I am in favor of a 1:1 flow through, or something similar. I think it would have to be the something similar. This is still a military club to some extent, and the military take care of their own--and justifiably so. It would probably be more like a 1:2 flow--1 off the street, 1 from DCI. That is the only plausible solution I can see to avoiding lawsuit. The Delta pilots were prepared to utilize a good bit of their negotiating capital in C2K to arrange some type of "career advancement opportunity"--possibly such as I described above.

That's the whole point of my cmments..to get the industry to a point where we don't have to go through this every 5-10 years. I'd just rather see 100% of all airline employees keep their job than have 20-30% on the furlough bubble everytime there is an economic downturn.

The Delta pilots secured just such language in their contract. I doubt we will let it go in future negotiations. Unfortunately, somebody decided to fly 3 airplanes into buildings as we were entering a recession. The industry has always been cyclical. When times are good, people fly. When times are bad, corporations slash the travel budgets. It's the nature of the business. This force majeure WILL end, G. When it does, Delta will have to find new ways of laying off Delta pilots. Perhaps, our war happy president will send the troops to once again stick our nose in the ME and we will have to go defend what is sure to be called a WAR EMERGENCY by the company. Nonetheless, the loopholes are being closed, albeit slowly.

C

 

[csmith]

From fins:

I did not say that we have an ownership interest in the flying. All flying is Delta flying and should be flown by Delta pilots. Your arguement illustrates my point.

I would even go as far to say that your company CANNOT give you any ownership over your flying, because it does not belong to you. Metro is correct. It is hard to find the correct word. The Delta pilots in one sentence allowed the code sharing, but reserved the right to negotiate changes in that code share via the right of sole bargaining rights with Delta. IOW, the code share pie is handed out and divided up as DCI sees fit. The size of that pie depends on what is negotiated between the Delta pilots and Delta.

The reason why we do not have negotiating muscle is because ALPA denies ASA and Comair pilots the right to negotiate with Delta, our employer. If we were provided appropriate representation and lost, that would be one thing. But what is happening right now is that our wages and working conditions are being negotiated in our absence.

ALPA denies it because your employer is not Delta. It is Comair, or ASA, etc. Like it or not, the companies are seperate. Why don't ASA and Comair petition the NMB? Why don't Comair and ASA petition ALPA for a PID? Regardless, the Delta pilots have sole bargaining rights with Delta. Hence, the phrase that they "own" the flying. What is code shared is not given up, but always negotiable with every contract.

I would rather avoid the harm and will keep preaching on this board to anyone who might listen and finally get it.

You can keep preaching, but has it occured to you that you don't get it? I've asked myself the question, and answered it. How many pilots are on the lawsuit? Out of how many?

 

[surplus1]

I have to hand it to you. You always make interesting points but don't you think they're just a tad slanted in favor of your own positions?

From fins:
I would even go as far to say that your company CANNOT give you any ownership over your flying, because it does not belong to you. Metro is correct. It is hard to find the correct word. The Delta pilots in one sentence allowed the code sharing, but reserved the right to negotiate changes in that code share via the right of sole bargaining rights with Delta. IOW, the code share pie is handed out and divided up as DCI sees fit. The size of that pie depends on what is negotiated between the Delta pilots and Delta.

Thats good, but it means a whole lot of nothing. The Delta pilots didn't allowanything. That is just your own high minded opinion of yourselves. I'm glad you think well of you, we all should but please recognize that the "Delta Pilots" are not Delta Air Lines. There are several other employee groups in the corporate sturcture, among them ASA and Comair.

The Company is the one that did the "allowing". They allowed the Delta pilots to control some of their flying and retained control of the remainder. Metro is indeed correct when he says that "WE" don't own the flying. What you seem to miss is that your group is included in the we. ALL of the flying is owned and conrolled by the Company. You negotiate for as much of it as you can get. Management gives you as much as it wants to and that's it. The giving and the taking are both done by management, not by you.

ALPA denies it because your employer is not Delta. It is Comair, or ASA, etc. Like it or not, the companies are seperate. Why don't ASA and Comair petition the NMB? Why don't Comair and ASA petition ALPA for a PID? Regardless, the Delta pilots have sole bargaining rights with Delta. Hence, the phrase that they "own" the flying. What is code shared is not given up, but always negotiable with every contract.

In reality ALPA has no right to deny anything and the pending litigation will take care of that. The corporation, regardless of how it may be structured for convenience, has the right to negotiate wiith whomever it chooses for whatever it chooses. ALPA doesn't control that and neither do the Delta pilots. You may think that you do, but you think lots of things. That doesn't make it so. ALPA is simply the bargaining agent for the Delta pilots. In case it slipped your mind, ALPA is also the bargaining agent for the Comair and ASA pilots.

What would you have us petition the NMB for? I'm curious to learn. I thought ALPA was already petitioned for a PID and denied it? Did I miss something?

The Delta pilots did have sole bargaining rights with Delta at one point in time. That is no longer the case. Delta now owns two other airlines and whether you like it or not those airlines also have bargaining rights with Delta. Your group does not have the right to remove that authority and neither does the ALPA.

I hate to frustrate you but I assure you that your opinions have no more validity than mine.

You can keep preaching, but has it occured to you that you don't get it? I've asked myself the question, and answered it. How many pilots are on the lawsuit? Out of how many?

It appears that when you asked yourself the question you gave yourself the wrong answer. Try again please.

Could you explain the relavance of your questions with relation to how many pilots are on the lawsuit? I'm simple and it was lost on me.

 

[csmith]

From Surplus1:

I have to hand it to you. You always make interesting points but don't you think they're just a tad slanted in favor of your own positions?

I suppose your points aren't slanted to your positions. I have told you before that I will not entertain your posts. Wrong as it is, your mind is made up. My posts are to represent factual information for those in search. I also provide opinions where I feel, and say that they are opinions--unlike some who represent their opinions as fact.

While you wrap yourself up in the ownership argument, I say again that it is a figure of speech. It represents the words "sole bargaining rights". This is the property of Delta pilots as represented by ALPA. Section C 1 spells it out clearly in black in white. "All flying by or for the company or any affiliate will be performed by pilots in accordance with the terms and conditions of this PWA." Clear as a bell. IOW the size of the code share pie is at the discretion of Delta and the Delta pilots represented by ALPA--a loving term I refer to as DALPA--whilst in Section 6 negotiations. Folks, that's as simple as it gets. Everything else such as our:

own high minded opinion of yourselves

may make some people feel better with their vent, but is really nothing more than interesting reading. Nobody else has the right to bargain with Delta. They may bargain with Comair or ASA--viable entities--, but until Delta decided to merge companies, the rest is just misdirection. This is the reason why Comair was unable to get ownership over any of their flying in recent negotiations. They can't put their name to any flying which is doled their way. Period.

Golden,

You may want to ask why Comair and ASA together did not attempt the PID between themselves, as they fly the same mission, aircraft, cities, approx pay, work rules, medical benefits, etc. You may further wish to ask why only 25% of the Comair pilots are active in the lawsuit. You may want to ask him about 3 resolutions which have fairly recently come to light regarding such matters, but I doubt his omnipotence knows about them. He is too busy trying to further divide the groups.

I'm afraid I am done with this thread,

C

 

[jppt2000]

Passenger loads are down a bit and revenue is definitely down. Do you know the market share of Frontier and Jet blue? Minimal.

Another furloughed mainline guy's well informed opinion.

Uh, I hate to inform you though, your Company President and Delta CEO "Dr. Evil"went on record stating in the near future low cost carriers are going have 40 percent of the market share.
Is that minimal?

You should have been working to get "one list" at Delta.

Another quote, "keep the laborer down",

Oh yeah, I'm sure a mainline Delta pilot is considered in the same context as a blue collar worker, Its evident you feel very sorry for yourself too.

You won't find much pity at the regional carriers

Take a look at USAir's CEO Siegel's (sp?) speech to the Washington Aero Club.
He stated his (I'm paraphrasing) position was either work with management or face the company's liquidation.

 

[Rvrrat]

Instead of

this thread degrading into another us-them shouting match along the lines of management vs labor or mainline versus regional....

Why not start with the here & now market realities and how they should be responded to? And while we are at it, let's toss out the cyclical nature of the industry portion of the equation.

This business about scope & RJs (at least to me) seems incredibly similar to "mileage limitation" language that was attempted to be included in contract language between '49-'51. The result from that mess is known, what are we going to wind up with this time? A new ATPA?

 

[csmith]

From JPPT:

Passenger loads are down a bit and revenue is definitely down. Do you know the market share of Frontier and Jet blue? Minimal.Another furloughed mainline guy's well informed opinion. Uh, I hate to inform you though, your Company President and Delta CEO "Dr. Evil"went on record stating in the near future low cost carriers are going have 40 percent of the market share.

Ah, a well informed post. A couple of points. I should have been a bit more specific. Passenger loads are down a bit right now. Load factors are pretty much where they were at. Low fares are the enticement. Hence the revenue down? I assume that you disagree with this from your quote. A review of the Delta performance figures will set you straight on this. People are flying, they just want to do it at bottom basement fares. An illegal reason to furlough at Delta, but that's another thread. Second, I am not furloughed. Third, I believe I stated Jetblue and Frontier. SWA, AirTran are the heavy hitters in the low fare industry right now, and I daresay that the majority of the 40% will be SWA, followed by AirTran. Do you have anything of substance to add, or are you just interested in flaming?

You should have been working to get "one list" at Delta.

Why? Can you tell me what that would solve? Delta will have their low cost structure somewhere. The Delta pilots allowed it a few contracts back, a couple of companies prospered because of it, now their employees aren't satisfied with their role in the world. If we stick them on our list, we will take a compensation hit, and flying will still be outsourced. I'm all for one list, but it won't solve any problems and will actually create a few.

Oh yeah, I'm sure a mainline Delta pilot is considered in the same context as a blue collar worker, Its evident you feel very sorry for yourself too.

While there are a few who consider themselves above and beyond, I consider myself blue collar--although I dress in a white one. The days of the prestigous airline pilot are gone. Feel sorry for myself? I don't know where you got that idea. I have a great job, a great wife, a great kid, a great dog, and I will do everything in my power to keep them all the way they are. Not looking for sympathy. Not giving any either. I earned it. You will have as well if/when you choose to come this way.

Take a look at USAir's CEO Siegel's (sp?) speech to the Washington Aero Club. He stated his (I'm paraphrasing) position was either work with management or face the company's liquidation

..and of what relevance is this to my post??

 

[csmith]

Re: Instead of

this thread degrading into another us-them shouting match along the lines of management vs labor or mainline versus regional....

Why not start with the here & now market realities and how they should be responded to? And while we are at it, let's toss out the cyclical nature of the industry portion of the equation.

This business about scope & RJs (at least to me) seems incredibly similar to "mileage limitation" language that was attempted to be included in contract language between '49-'51. The result from that mess is known, what are we going to wind up with this time A new ATPA?

I agree with you. As I said, people are shooting from the hip with accusations. You said that it is the only information available. I have presented a bit of information since that post. People will see what they choose to see, including myself. I will be glad to quit the shouting match, but I will point out erronous information, which is the primary reason that I post in the first place.

The market realities are that Delta is bleeding money right now. The reason they are bleeding is that they have let their business become inefficient. They have relied on the business traveller to support their flawed business plan, and subsequently taken hits during recessions and prospered during growth. Check the history. It is all there. Labor unknowingly has gone along with this by taking pay cuts during the bad times and large raises in the good times. Hence the cycle. They never learn. Why should labor continue to take it in the shorts when they have the leverage, management continues to take their bonuses, and management continues to follow the same flawed model.

Keep in mind that Delta has not approached the Delta MEC with any kind of concessions request. It would appear as if they may be serious about this LCC thing, and that is a positive step. Maybe we can attempt to grab a chunk of that 40%.

 

[surplus1]

Re: Re: Instead of

Keep in mind that Delta has not approached the Delta MEC with any kind of concessions request. It would appear as if they may be serious about this LCC thing, and that is a positive step. Maybe we can attempt to grab a chunk of that 40%.

I think you will see a proposal to create yet another subsidiary, but I'm haveing trouble understanding why you don't see that as a concession.

As I see it, it will fall between the current subsidiaries and the mainline and fly the new 100-seat +- airplane, with different payscales and contractual terms, but the pilots will be on the same list. The non-pilot employees wont be paid or have the same benefits as "Delta" employees, which is a key factor. It could work.

What do you see as so "different" about that than a blending of all the pilot lists currently on the property? What do you see as an improvement between such a system with 3 subsidiaries and 3 "tiers" as opposed to one subsidiary that does it all, while leaving the "mainline" structure intact, but giving the pilots (all of them) access to all of the flying?

No barbs, just your honest opinion.

 

[jppt2000]

People are flying, they just want to do it at bottom basement fares. An illegal reason to furlough at Delta, but that's another thread.

What reality is ALPA not facing? Salaries are inflated? Says who? Mr. Mullin has not come to the Delta MEC asking for anything.

I beg to differ with you.



First, The Wall Street Journal reported Delta's break even load factor at 85%. If you think DAL can sustain that kind of load factor and remain profitable, you might want to start studying for your insurance salesman's license.

Second, did you know how copper wire used in aircraft, was invented? They let two Delta pilots fight over a penny.
This low cost carrier is gonna have to have a very low cost wage structure. No pension, cheap medical bennies, and of course no snap back wage adjustments.
Of course, this only my opinion, "Dr. Evil" Mullins is not gonna waste the time asking Mainline DAL for wage concessions.
I guess Force Majuere is alive and well.
I'm sure you've heard of whipsawing.

Wait til management starts using that as a tool to decrease your compensation package.
There are a bunch of guys who have no sympathy for mainline now.

Lastly, I and a bunch of other RJ pilots think what DALPA did to ASA and COMAIR is inexcusable. It sounds like you are so much a better pilot and (airline economist) than the regional guys. Your condescending tone brings back memories.
Had junior Delta guys supported a staple or integration, many of the furloughs would have come from the bottom of the Regional's lists.

PS, I still think you are out on furlough