Scope, RJ's and unions

[Raskal]

As an instructor who is watching the infighting among the airlines and their commuters from afar I was wondering where I could go to learn more about the issues. Is there an unbiased site or book anyone can recommend that can give me an overall picture of how all this began and what's happening?

I have a working knowledge of the ALPA/RJDC ordeal and scope, but not enough to really understand the central issues.

 

[goldentrout]

There is nothing unbiased about this issue.

Mainline guys think they need scope clauses to protect "their" flying. They feel cheated when management uses a lower cost option (i.e. regional) to save the company money and increase profitability. They also feel cheated when they have guys on the street while the associated regionals are hiring...since they feel they work for the "same" company. Funny thing here is that when it comes to pilot hiring it's the "same" company...but when it comes to routes it's "their" routes. They could solve many of their problems with "one list," but greed and egos prevent that.

Regional guys think the mainline guys are screwing them with scope clauses, and deals like jets for jobs...where mainline guys with no flow through get to take regional positions and put regional guys on furlough, because, apparently, mainline families and their mortages are more important than regional families and mortages. Realize that regional guys pay their dues to the same union that got the jet for jobs deal for the US Air mainline guys at the expense of their regional ALPA "brothers." This is precisely why there is an RJDC.

As you read through all the comments on this issue, you'll see much emotion about "our routes, our jobs, management screwing pilots" etc. Try to look past that and look at economic realities.

If revenu doesn't meet expenses (of which employee salaries and benefits are a huge part) then eventually a company must declare bankruptcy, where it will a) lower its expenses to match revenu or b) cease to exist.

Many pilots in the industry are willing to risk their company and the jobs of everyone at the company to get "max pay to the last day," because they "paid their dues" over the years and now "deserve" every penny they get. If you ask them why they're doing this, you'll hear something to the effect of "we're preserving the profession for all those who are to come behind us." In fact, the ALPA "brotherhood" stops at the pocketbook, and 9/11 has shown this very clearly, where guys making $200,000-$300,000/yr are unwilling to give up anything to keep the jobs of the junior brothers.

So what's the solution?

Here's my humble opinion:

1. All pilots groups owned by a company need to become one list. This eliminates the "us vs them" mentality, and increases pilot bargaining power.

2. Everyone starts out flying an RJ, and goes from there.

3. There should be (and this is heresy to ALPA), one FO payscale and one CA payscale, no matter what plane you fly. Imagine the training cost savings if every month pilots weren't changing planes to get the next bigger paycheck. What seems fair? I don't know, but something like.

FO's 50K-125K based on longevity
CA's 130k-200K based on longevity

There is precedence for this. UPS has one rate for their FEs, FOs, and CAs. All UPS CAs make about 200K after 10 years, and the FOs make about 130K after 10 years.

4. Base salaries (more heresy) will have to be matched to anticipated revenu (in an average year...not the boom years of the late 90s), which means some salaries for the larger aircraft will have to come down. This will help ensure that even in down times, as we're seeing now, the company will not have to declare bankruptcy. In good times, sure, let's all take part in the wealth with a profit sharing plan. But the company cost overhead cost structure must be able to absorb some bad times, and the employees will just have to live off their base salaries during those times.

5. Elimination of "probation pay." This is nothing more than disguised pay for training.

Now, how do we implement this without "screwing people." Well, if everyone is willing to give a little for the good of the whole, seniority list integration can be accomplished.

As for salary reduction on certain aircraft here's my plan:

On the day the contract is signed, if a pilot is making over the prescribed limits above, he gets to keep his current salary (with cost of living increases) as his max salary until he/she retires, no matter what the aircraft (unless it's an FO upgrading to CA). This way, no pilot is asked to take a pay cut, but he/she sacrifices the future prospect of the "big bucks" for the good of the pilot group as a whole.

It works at Southwest, it works at Jet Blue, it works at Frontier, it works Airtran...all making money or at least not facing bankruptcy after 9/11.

It just comes down to ALPA as a whole having the vision to make fundamental reforms to ensure a stable, strong group of good paying pilots jobs...rather than fighting tooth and nail to protect the excessive pay and benefits of a few, at the expense of the rest of the ALPA "brotherhood."

Good luck finding "unbiased" research on scope. If you do find something, post it her for the rest of us to read.

 

[FL717]

Amen brother!

You are going to possibly get slammed for that opinion, because people are going to insist that its is alot more complicated than that, but your simplification of the issue is what we desperately need. Egos, hard feelings, and self entitlement within people are the industry problem more so than the economy. Just my observation folks.
And... since I'm also gonna get slammed for voicing my opinion anyway, I'll leave with one more opinion for all to simmer over. Are you ready?? Airline pilots at the top 3 airlines in this country are OVERPAID... just like the Airline pilots at many of the regionals are UNDERPAID. BTW... for clarification.. I have been at AirTran for 18 months and as a regular line holder with 16 or 17 days off a month.. I gross $60,000 a year ($5000.00 a month including per diem based on 90 hrs credit), and yet people will argue that I am underpaid and driving the industry wage down. BULLSH#T!
My final parting shot.... are you ready....I have not been furloughed and continue to earn a paycheck because my companies business model works. Unfortunately my friends and peer group that went to United, Delta etc. earn 50% more.. but can't because they are FURLOUGHED.. and will be for some time.

Back to the original topic, I hope you find that "unbiased" information you seek, because were all biased.

 

[Rvrrat]

Is there an unbiased site or book anyone can recommend that can give me an overall picture of how all this began and what's happening?

Two works not directly aviation related from which clear analogies can be drawn.

The Winter of Our Discontent-John Steinbeck

Atlas Shrugged-Ayn Rand


Works which are directly related to your query

Flying the line: the first half century of the Air Line Pilots Association-George E. Hopkins

The Line Pilot in Crisis: ALPA Battles Airline Deregulation (Flying the Line, Volume II)-George E. Hopkins

The Airline Pilots: A study in Elite Unionization-George E. Hopkins

*personal note* I have yet to find an "unbiased" book or text of any kind; there will always be a view or "spin" the author wishes to forward to the reader.

 

[InHot]

Scope and all that garbage

Hey GoldenTrout,

Where'd you get all that common sense and sound logic? Can you spare some of it and spread it around, say at ALPA national...maybe beat Dwayne Woerth over the head with some of it?

In my opinion (and I could be wrong, but I doubt it) you have espoused what should be the foundation of all future airline labor-management discussions.

Hey everybody, let's nominate Goldentrout as our spokesman to encourage common sense and contract negotiations for the common good.

Carry on.

 

[RJFlyer]

goldentrout: great post, great ideas.

I spoke with a NWA capt who flies 747s all over the Pacific, and he was essentially saying the same thing about one pay rate, no matter which aircraft. He's approaching 60 and to make the big bucks he has to fly the big aircraft, which means long-haul international routes, which are much more exhausting and more physically suited to younger pilots. He was saying that if all aircraft had the same pay rate, the more senior guys would probably bid the smaller aircraft to stay closer to home, and we more junior hotshots could get our kicks flying the 'big iron.'

 

[Raskal]

Thanks for the replies, and goldentrout your post was quite informative. I have heard of the books Rvrrat mentioned (and the Steinbeck reference gave a grin ) so I'll go get off my lazy butt and get them. As someone who's hopefully on the way to the airlines (if I don't take the corporate route more open to me at the moment) I just feel like I should know an awful lot more than I do. Thanks again

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

A few points:

1. I doubt you will find too much "unbaised" scope info. My advice is to talk to knowledgable people on both sides and gain as much factual info (not propaganda) as you can.

2. I would like goldentrout to tell me how we can force mgt to give up their huge cost advantage and combine the lists. He makes it sound like our "egos" are all that is preventing it from happening.

3. The general feeling among the low wage airline guys here is that we are overpaid and should take a pay cut. Have any of you considered that the moment we do, you will have to as well or go out of business? After all, your cost advantage is the only thing enabling your airlines to compete with the major's routes, ff programs, size, etc. Your largest cost savings come primarily from the difference in airline's largest expense: employee wages and benefits. If we were to listen to your repeated suggestions that we give up our salaries, you guys would have no choice but to give up yours. Remember, "$40,000 is better than nothing." Where would it end? The only reason your salaries are as high as they are is that ours are as high as ours are. Perhaps you should thank us instead of criticizing us.

I won't hold my breath.

 

[Typhoon1244]

If we were to listen to your repeated suggestions that we give up our salaries, you guys would have no choice but to give up yours. Remember, "$40,000 is better than nothing." Where would it end? The only reason your salaries are as high as they are is that ours are as high as ours are. Perhaps you should thank us instead of criticizing us.

As much arguing as I've heard about ASA/Delta scope, I've never heard anybody on my side suggest that you guys make too much money. (Maybe I haven't talked to the right people.) I feel just the opposite. The more you make, the more you pull up the pay rates in the rest of the industry. I hope Delta gives you all a million dollars a year...but I suppose that'd put their labor costs a little on the high side.

The only suggestion I've heard repeatedly about anyone "giving up" anything is that we should volunteer to give furloughed guys our seats since they are, as furloughed major airline pilots, much more entitled to my job than I am. Since our seniority lists are completely separate, I can't say I thought much of this idea.

Here's the only undeniable constant in this argument: everybody, from the thirty-year 777 captain to the new-hire Brasilia F/O, wants whatever is best for them and to heck with everybody else...and I'm no different, but I recognize the trend.

 

[FL717]

Hello FlyDeltaJets... I think you make a very valid point. I have read your posts here and in other threads and I agree that the economics of the business are very complicated. I do counter your supposition that low cost carriers would be out of business if your wages were lowered at large majors. I do not feel that a pilot at one of the largest airlines (I will use Delta in this case), should be paid the same as a National carrier ( I will use AirTran as an example). You are entitled to make more than us. Company size does matter as well as equipment capacity. It is just my contention that the salary structure is well out of tolerance both at the botton end (some regional carriers) and at the top (United, Delta etc.). The business model at most major carriers (except Southwest) do not work. Part of this is the outrageous salaries for many employee groups. A second year FO at Delta (if there are any left that haven't been unfortunately furloughed) can make over $100,000 a year.... again that is second year pay potential. That to me my friend is ridiculous. Your business model is subject to constant cyclic employee furloughs. That is also ridiculous since it is almost predictable to the year. (I'm not picking on Delta... just using it for this example).

Just my thoughts. Fly safe and slow to 250 while your at it.