Scope, RJ's and unions

[FlyDeltasJets]

As much arguing as I've heard about ASA/Delta scope, I've never heard anybody on my side suggest that you guys make too much money.



--------Please read the second and third post of this thread. I was not in this case referring to the rjdc guys, but rather to a growing group of pilots who seem to think that lower salaries always lead to job security. Please understand that my comments were directed solely at them.


(Maybe I haven't talked to the right people.) I feel just the opposite. The more you make, the more you pull up the pay rates in the rest of the industry. I hope Delta gives you all a million dollars a year...but I suppose that'd put their labor costs a little on the high side.


--------I hope so too! Of course, if every airline pilot fought for a million a year, airlines would no longer compete by underpaying their employees. Caution: The preceding was hyperbole for the ever-present multitude waiting to jump in!

The only suggestion I've heard repeatedly about anyone "giving up" anything is that we should volunteer to give furloughed guys our seats since they are, as furloughed major airline pilots, much more entitled to my job than I am.

-------You certainly have never heard this from me or my MEC.

Since our seniority lists are completely separate, I can't say I thought much of this idea.

-------I can't say I blame you.

Here's the only undeniable constant in this argument: everybody, from the thirty-year 777 captain to the new-hire Brasilia F/O, wants whatever is best for them and to heck with everybody else...and I'm no different, but I recognize the trend.

Very true. Except that in some cases, one's selfish desires might benefit the whole profession. I feel that my wishes for more pay and a prevention of further outsourcing would have such an effect.

Thanks for the reply, although you were not my intended audience. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Caution: The preceding was hyperbole for the ever-present multitude waiting to jump in!

My instructor tried to teach me how to do a hyperbole while I was working on my CMEL...but I never got it right.


(Sorry. It's late.)

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Since I am too lazy to figure out the quote function, you will have to make do with my little dashes. Hope you can figure out which parts are mine.

Hello FlyDeltaJets... I think you make a very valid point. I have read your posts here and in other threads and I agree that the economics of the business are very complicated. I do counter your supposition that low cost carriers would be out of business if your wages were lowered at large majors.


----------I never said that they would be out of business. I said that they would have to lower their employee costs a similar percentage or face going out. If our wages were the same, your cost advatage would virtually cease to exist. Please don't take this the wrong way, but do you honestly think that AAI could compete in ATL against Delta if our costs were the same?



I do not feel that a pilot at one of the largest airlines (I will use Delta in this case), should be paid the same as a National carrier ( I will use AirTran as an example). You are entitled to make more than us. Company size does matter as well as equipment capacity. It is just my contention that the salary structure is well out of tolerance both at the botton end (some regional carriers) and at the top (United, Delta etc.).



--------You are only half right. The low end is way too low. I cannot support your assertion that the top end is too high. More on this in a sec.

The business model at most major carriers (except Southwest) do not work.

---------I am not willing to concede this either. We made over $1 billion a year for the four years prior to 2001. I will say that the business model is EXTREMELY cyclical, but I will not go far enough to say it doesn't work.


Part of this is the outrageous salaries for many employee groups. A second year FO at Delta (if there are any left that haven't been unfortunately furloughed) can make over $100,000 a year.... again that is second year pay potential. That to me my friend is ridiculous.


-------It is only ridiculous in the context of competing with second year guys making half that. People always tell me that the "market" cannot support such salaries. Perhaps that is true, but only due to the fact that the "market" includes low wage airlines. Of course market forces and competition will naturally force costs to the lowest denominator. I think that is something that we should fight. Do you think it inconceivable that another start-up could come along with pilot costs half of yours? You might be having this same arguement in the future, but on the other side of the fence. After all, some may think your $60,000 "ridiculous."




Your business model is subject to constant cyclic employee furloughs. That is also ridiculous since it is almost predictable to the year. (I'm not picking on Delta... just using it for this example).


-------It never was such until the advent of low wage airlines (at least not at Delta, I would agree if we are talking about other airlines.) The "old" Delta would never furlough its pilots. A lot has changed. That's an indictment of the last two CEO's, not any external force or airline.

Just my thoughts. Fly safe and slow to 250 while your at it.

About as fast as I go lately is 65!

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

My instructor tried to teach me how to do a hyperbole while I was working on my CMEL...but I never got it right.


(Sorry. It's late.)

On a related subject:

I still don't know what the hell a "lazy 8" looks like, but I'm here, so I guess I did something close to it!

P.S.
I don't know if the hour is enough of an excuse for your hyperbole thing! That was pretty bad!

 

[goldentrout]

Typhoon1244 says

"Here's the only undeniable constant in this argument: everybody, from the thirty-year 777 captain to the new-hire Brasilia F/O, wants whatever is best for them and to heck with everybody else...and I'm no different, but I recognize the trend."

This is exactly the problem...no one is willing to give a little for the good of the whole.

 

[goldentrout]

Flydeltajets

If you don't like my proposals...what do you suggest to provide for a stable, viable airline industry, where pilots don't live in fear of furlough every time there is an economic downturn?

We probably can't force management to combine lists. However, on the next Delta contract, instead of asking for the typical "less work, more pay" scenario, how about you ask for the following:

a. Stop asking for wage and benefit increases that outstrip the company's ability to pay their bills on a year in/year out basis.
b. Show them the cost savings to be had by eliminating all the overhead required to have separate ASA/Comair/Delta pilot management personnel.
c. Show them the training cost savings of millions of dollars annually from people continunally not changing aircraft in search of the next bigger paycheck.

Yes...the way things ought to be is that all airplane pilots should make well into six figures, work 10 days a month, and we all have an A and B fund, as well as profit sharing and a company funded 401K, with 100% medical, vision, and dental coverage.

Reality is that employee overhead is crushing the major airlines.

It's not that "complicated." It doesn't take an economics major to figure out that if revenu doesn't match overhead, a company cannot survive. The reality of market economics is currently proving my point. We can all bury our heads in the sand, or we can take proactive measures to try and secure decent (read market based) wages, benefits, and job security.

And as for egos...I personally have been told by many a major airline pilot that they have serious "concerns" about combining lists...there are "reasons" why regional guys have never made it to the majors...horsecrap! Anyone who makes it to CA at a regional is certainly capable of becoming an FE/FO at any major airline. I know this because I'm a RJ FO, but I've been a B-707 CA, and flown with many a CA both at the regional and major airline level. I have the utmost confidence that any of the Dornier 328 and RJ CAs I've flown with can handle any FO seat on any aircraft at Delta mainline.

 

[goldentrout]

One last comment and then I'll stop...because I really do have better things to than sit at my computer.

I just happened to be looking at the ALPA "Code of Ethics" today.

It states,

"An airline pilot will not falsely or maliciously injure the professional reputation, prospects or job security of another pilot,"

All major airline pilots...please explain to me how scope clauses and jets for jobs does not "injure...prospects or job security of another pilot."

 

[bayoubandit]

"An airline pilot will not falsely or maliciously injure the professional reputation, prospects or job security of another pilot,"

All major airline pilots...please explain to me how scope clauses and jets for jobs does not "injure...prospects or job security of another pilot."

Not trying to start an arguement, but look at it the other way. Isn't the explosion of the RJ taking prospects and job security at the majors?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Better binding language can be found in ALPA's Constitution:

Article 1, Section 6 B 1: ....To provide representation for all members of the airline piloting profession; to promote the interests of that profession; and to safeguard the rights, individually and collectively, of its members.

Article 1, Section B 9: To provide a means of participation by the members of the Association in the resolution of issues that affect the piloting profession

Members can be thrown out of the union for violations of Article VIII. Including number (10) - "Doing any act contrary to the best interests of the Association, or its members."

Article XVIII states "Any contract, letter of agreement or letter of understanding that, in the opinion of the MEC, substantially affects the pay, working conditions, retiement, or career security of member pilots will be subject to membership ratification...The MEC will...ballot the membership of their airline to determine if it is their desire to have membership ratification.

In my opinion ALPA already has the rules in place to fix the problems. The major problem is that ALPA will not enforce the rules on 5 MEC's. Even our conflict of interest would not exist if ALPA would enforce its own merger and fragmentation policy.

Mergers are never popular, that policy exists because our leaders in the past knew that difficult decisions had to be forced for the good of the union.

 

[dashtrash]

Goldentrout,

You said that anyone that can make it to Capt. at a regional can make it in the majors.

I say HORSECRAP!