Scope, RJ's and unions

[Rvrrat]

Instead of

this thread degrading into another us-them shouting match along the lines of management vs labor or mainline versus regional....

Why not start with the here & now market realities and how they should be responded to? And while we are at it, let's toss out the cyclical nature of the industry portion of the equation.

This business about scope & RJs (at least to me) seems incredibly similar to "mileage limitation" language that was attempted to be included in contract language between '49-'51. The result from that mess is known, what are we going to wind up with this time? A new ATPA?

 

[csmith]

From JPPT:

Passenger loads are down a bit and revenue is definitely down. Do you know the market share of Frontier and Jet blue? Minimal.Another furloughed mainline guy's well informed opinion. Uh, I hate to inform you though, your Company President and Delta CEO "Dr. Evil"went on record stating in the near future low cost carriers are going have 40 percent of the market share.

Ah, a well informed post. A couple of points. I should have been a bit more specific. Passenger loads are down a bit right now. Load factors are pretty much where they were at. Low fares are the enticement. Hence the revenue down? I assume that you disagree with this from your quote. A review of the Delta performance figures will set you straight on this. People are flying, they just want to do it at bottom basement fares. An illegal reason to furlough at Delta, but that's another thread. Second, I am not furloughed. Third, I believe I stated Jetblue and Frontier. SWA, AirTran are the heavy hitters in the low fare industry right now, and I daresay that the majority of the 40% will be SWA, followed by AirTran. Do you have anything of substance to add, or are you just interested in flaming?

You should have been working to get "one list" at Delta.

Why? Can you tell me what that would solve? Delta will have their low cost structure somewhere. The Delta pilots allowed it a few contracts back, a couple of companies prospered because of it, now their employees aren't satisfied with their role in the world. If we stick them on our list, we will take a compensation hit, and flying will still be outsourced. I'm all for one list, but it won't solve any problems and will actually create a few.

Oh yeah, I'm sure a mainline Delta pilot is considered in the same context as a blue collar worker, Its evident you feel very sorry for yourself too.

While there are a few who consider themselves above and beyond, I consider myself blue collar--although I dress in a white one. The days of the prestigous airline pilot are gone. Feel sorry for myself? I don't know where you got that idea. I have a great job, a great wife, a great kid, a great dog, and I will do everything in my power to keep them all the way they are. Not looking for sympathy. Not giving any either. I earned it. You will have as well if/when you choose to come this way.

Take a look at USAir's CEO Siegel's (sp?) speech to the Washington Aero Club. He stated his (I'm paraphrasing) position was either work with management or face the company's liquidation

..and of what relevance is this to my post??

 

[csmith]

Re: Instead of

this thread degrading into another us-them shouting match along the lines of management vs labor or mainline versus regional....

Why not start with the here & now market realities and how they should be responded to? And while we are at it, let's toss out the cyclical nature of the industry portion of the equation.

This business about scope & RJs (at least to me) seems incredibly similar to "mileage limitation" language that was attempted to be included in contract language between '49-'51. The result from that mess is known, what are we going to wind up with this time A new ATPA?

I agree with you. As I said, people are shooting from the hip with accusations. You said that it is the only information available. I have presented a bit of information since that post. People will see what they choose to see, including myself. I will be glad to quit the shouting match, but I will point out erronous information, which is the primary reason that I post in the first place.

The market realities are that Delta is bleeding money right now. The reason they are bleeding is that they have let their business become inefficient. They have relied on the business traveller to support their flawed business plan, and subsequently taken hits during recessions and prospered during growth. Check the history. It is all there. Labor unknowingly has gone along with this by taking pay cuts during the bad times and large raises in the good times. Hence the cycle. They never learn. Why should labor continue to take it in the shorts when they have the leverage, management continues to take their bonuses, and management continues to follow the same flawed model.

Keep in mind that Delta has not approached the Delta MEC with any kind of concessions request. It would appear as if they may be serious about this LCC thing, and that is a positive step. Maybe we can attempt to grab a chunk of that 40%.

 

[surplus1]

Re: Re: Instead of

Keep in mind that Delta has not approached the Delta MEC with any kind of concessions request. It would appear as if they may be serious about this LCC thing, and that is a positive step. Maybe we can attempt to grab a chunk of that 40%.

I think you will see a proposal to create yet another subsidiary, but I'm haveing trouble understanding why you don't see that as a concession.

As I see it, it will fall between the current subsidiaries and the mainline and fly the new 100-seat +- airplane, with different payscales and contractual terms, but the pilots will be on the same list. The non-pilot employees wont be paid or have the same benefits as "Delta" employees, which is a key factor. It could work.

What do you see as so "different" about that than a blending of all the pilot lists currently on the property? What do you see as an improvement between such a system with 3 subsidiaries and 3 "tiers" as opposed to one subsidiary that does it all, while leaving the "mainline" structure intact, but giving the pilots (all of them) access to all of the flying?

No barbs, just your honest opinion.

 

[jppt2000]

People are flying, they just want to do it at bottom basement fares. An illegal reason to furlough at Delta, but that's another thread.

What reality is ALPA not facing? Salaries are inflated? Says who? Mr. Mullin has not come to the Delta MEC asking for anything.

I beg to differ with you.



First, The Wall Street Journal reported Delta's break even load factor at 85%. If you think DAL can sustain that kind of load factor and remain profitable, you might want to start studying for your insurance salesman's license.

Second, did you know how copper wire used in aircraft, was invented? They let two Delta pilots fight over a penny.
This low cost carrier is gonna have to have a very low cost wage structure. No pension, cheap medical bennies, and of course no snap back wage adjustments.
Of course, this only my opinion, "Dr. Evil" Mullins is not gonna waste the time asking Mainline DAL for wage concessions.
I guess Force Majuere is alive and well.
I'm sure you've heard of whipsawing.

Wait til management starts using that as a tool to decrease your compensation package.
There are a bunch of guys who have no sympathy for mainline now.

Lastly, I and a bunch of other RJ pilots think what DALPA did to ASA and COMAIR is inexcusable. It sounds like you are so much a better pilot and (airline economist) than the regional guys. Your condescending tone brings back memories.
Had junior Delta guys supported a staple or integration, many of the furloughs would have come from the bottom of the Regional's lists.

PS, I still think you are out on furlough

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

[7
Had junior Delta guys supported a staple or integration, many of the furloughs would have come from the bottom of the Regional's lists.

PS, I still think you are out on furlough [/B]

Really? And Leo would have combined the lists why? Just because we supported it?

P.S.

I know Csmith. He is not furloughed. I am, if it makes you feel any better.

 

[Dieterly]

FDJ,

You should have stayed FlaGulf, at least you wouldn't been furloughed...

 

[FlyingSig]

Any person who consistantly quotes Dave Siegal can't have too much credibility.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Really? And Leo would have combined the lists why? Just because we supported it?

(1) It has never been tried (2) ALPA Controls the NMB, look at where former NMB members go to work after their government service. (3) If we stood together, he would have no choice. If Delta management signed off on C2K, they would have signed off on about anything and (4) Numerous reports show that the cost differential would have been minimal.

Delta management loves whipsaw and is in the process of bringing in three more players to beat you guys up with. At Connection we have been living in this World for a while - welcome to our World.

A union's strength is in unity. You need to stop complaining that it would be too difficult to bring pilots together and start demanding it.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

(1) It has never been tried

---------Doesn't answer my question.


(2) ALPA Controls the NMB, look at where former NMB members go to work after their government service.

-----The NMB has nothing to do with our ability to force a list integration.


(3) If we stood together, he would have no choice. If Delta management signed off on C2K, they would have signed off on about anything and

-----A) We probably would not have been allowed to strike (PEB) and B) They certainlyy had the choice to spinn off CMR and ASA.

(4) Numerous reports show that the cost differential would have been minimal.


-----Fins, please. You are an educated man. Are you kidding me!!????Who made this study, Dan Ford?

Delta management loves whipsaw and is in the process of bringing in three more players to beat you guys up with. At Connection we have been living in this World for a while - welcome to our World.

-----Wait a minute, why would he bother whipsawing us if the cost difference between our airlines is, as you say, "minimal?"

A union's strength is in unity. You need to stop complaining that it would be too difficult to bring pilots together and start demanding it.

----- A unions strength also lies in its ability to reason and to explore alternate options when one is unrealistic. Telling me that mgt would do it because our cost difference is "minimal" is not realistic or reasonable.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

FDJ,

You should have stayed FlaGulf, at least you wouldn't been furloughed...

Something tells me that I still might be better off!


Where were ya based?

 

[csmith]

First, The Wall Street Journal reported Delta's break even load factor at 85%. If you think DAL can sustain that kind of load factor and remain profitable, you might want to start studying for your insurance salesman's license.

Do you want to know what our breakeven loadfactor would be if the pilots flew for free? I guess the WSJ wouldn't report that.

There are a bunch of guys who have no sympathy for mainline now.

What a profound statement. Are you saying that you are actively looking to see that I get mine? How grown up of you.

Lastly, I and a bunch of other RJ pilots think what DALPA did to ASA and COMAIR is inexcusable. It sounds like you are so much a better pilot and (airline economist) than the regional guys. Your condescending tone brings back memories.

More of the martyr syndrome. How do you generate a "tone" from a typed post? I have addressed this several times and will not get dragged into it again. It sounds to me as if you are unsure of your abilities and logic, and therefore must resort to flaming.

If you want me to be furloughed, fine. I'm happy you would find it so appealing if I really were. What does it matter whether or not I am furloughed? Would it make my logic any less valid? I'll make sure to send the checks back on the 15th and 30th, because Delta doesn't realize it yet. I guess you and I are done here until you can grow up a bit.

 

[csmith]

Re: Re: Re: Instead of

I think you will see a proposal to create yet another subsidiary, but I'm haveing trouble understanding why you don't see that as a concession.

As I see it, it will fall between the current subsidiaries and the mainline and fly the new 100-seat +- airplane, with different payscales and contractual terms, but the pilots will be on the same list. The non-pilot employees wont be paid or have the same benefits as "Delta" employees, which is a key factor. It could work.

What do you see as so "different" about that than a blending of all the pilot lists currently on the property? What do you see as an improvement between such a system with 3 subsidiaries and 3 "tiers" as opposed to one subsidiary that does it all, while leaving the "mainline" structure intact, but giving the pilots (all of them) access to all of the flying?

No barbs, just your honest opinion.

Well, that will be something to deal with if/when it happens. I don't see our MEC signing off on it--yes they will have to sign off on it. I would hope they learned their lesson in this area.

I will point out that any new airplane on the Delta property will likely have compensation set by an arbitraitor. Thanks to the loss of 3.B.6, our compensation lives will be in his hands. He does have some mandatory direction, however, and I have reasonable confidence in our built-in protections there.

I wouldn't see such a system as an "improvement", and have already instructed my reps as such. What you dont realize is that your solution could have worked out. It is a flow through. Whether you admit it or not, that's what it is. It was talked about, and your reps said to go pound sand, so we did. No windfalls at others expense. I think this thread has worn itself out.

 

[Publishers]

sad

One of the sad facts of this situation is that Delta or any major has to form some de facto company like Express or regionals to respond to major changes in the industry.

It would be nice if the constraints and rules did not create these situations. I am furloughing over here and building over here to satisfy the restrictive rules that have been created over the years trying to protect jobs that in many ways end up not being protected at all.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Re: sad

One of the sad facts of this situation is that Delta or any major has to form some de facto company like Express or regionals to respond to major changes in the industry.

That's the whole point, publisher:

They don't "have" to, they want to.