Scope, RJ's and unions

[csmith]

All this talk about mainline jets returning to routes when the loads justify bigger equipment is true - management is telling us straight about that.

I absolutely agree with you.

What ALPA needs to figure out is that there is no practical difference between a revenue seat mile produced by me in a CRJ700, or produced by mainline in a Boeing jet. We are operationally identical as far as the company and the consumer are concerned. If ALPA wants to promote disparities in our profession, management is only too happy to exploit ALPA's flawed thinking.

I absolutely disagree with you. What you conveniently leave out is that the very existence of your job was because of this disparity. Or more precisely, the explosive growth of your company was due to this disparity.

I think ALPA realizes that there is no difference in the seat mile, where there is a difference is the mission. Your company grew and prospered due to this disparity, much like SWA grows and prospers due to its disparity. You leave that niche, you've lost your edge. To top it off, you are trying to do it at the expense of another group.

 

[Director]

Go To AviationCareer.net

A lot of good info is on AviationCareer.net

 

[goldentrout]

Csmith

I'd be intersted to know what you know or have heard about the whole scope, RJDC, Delta MEC propositions, etc.

I'm all for more mainline, jobs, cause I'd like to maybe have one too someday. At worst, they cause more movement at the regionals.

It's difficult to discuss the issue without facts...or at least the most reliable rumors.

As someone stated above, most of us are just going on what we see in the media.

You bring up may good points about airline overhead. What I find interestingis your comment about "going through this a couple of times."

That's the whole point of my cmments..to get the industry to a point where we don't have to go through this every 5-10 years. I'd just rather see 100% of all airline employees keep their job than have 20-30% on the furlough bubble everytime there is an economic downturn.

I taked to a senoir United Capt today. We were talking about whether the current business model is broken or not. his exact comment "it's broken for the guys towards the bottom of the list, but for us it's not broken."

Difficult to swallow for those who can't pay their mortgagges, car payments, etc.

Some reliable insight into what you have heard from the senior ALPA folks would be helpful in furthering the discussion.

 

[Draginass]

It's a cyclical business and if they don't need you to fly an airplane, you can bet that you'll be furloughed . . . . and it doesn't matter whether you make 20K or 200k a year.

 

[~~~^~~~]

What you conveniently leave out is that the very existence of your job was because of this disparity. Or more precisely, the explosive growth of your company was due to this disparity.

I think ALPA realizes that there is no difference in the seat mile, where there is a difference is the mission. Your company grew and prospered due to this disparity, much like SWA grows and prospers due to its disparity. You leave that niche, you've lost your edge. To top it off, you are trying to do it at the expense of another group.

A history lesson is in order. My niche, as you call it, was created when your MEC negotiated codeshare in order to preserve a pay structure in the face of deregulation. Your MEC sold that niche and it now belongs to someone else.

If ALPA does realize that there is no difference in the seat mile - would you care to explain the determination reached at the last BOD meeting when ALPA declared there was no operational integration? If you were sincere in what you wrote, then the RJDC is correct regarding ALPA's malfeasance at the 2000 BOD meeting.

 

[MetroSheriff]

A history lesson is in order. My niche, as you call it, was created when your MEC negotiated codeshare in order to preserve a pay structure in the face of deregulation. Your MEC sold that niche and it now belongs to someone else.

Fins,

A reality check is in order. None of the DCI carriers have scope clauses that give us contractual "ownership" over any DAL flying.

The flying "belongs" to the company. We are doing the flying because the Delta PWA allows it to be outsourced. Nothing more.

It is our "niche" because we are cheaper.

The Delta pilots didn't sell it. It wasn't theirs to sell. The negotiated for something they wanted more by giving mgt the right to outsorce a % of the block hours. If they saw fit to negotiate payrates acceptable to management, they have the power (read negotiating muscle) to take it all back.

Which is more than can be said for our bargaining position.

They didn't sell that flying, the leased it for lack of a better word. Regardless, it doesn't belong to us. Don't get me wrong, I wish we had some scope over the outsourced block hours, it would provide growth for ASA/Comair rather than the fee for departure carriers (ACA/Skywest/Chautaqua) but the sad fact is, we don't.

Why is it so hard for you to comprehend that?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Metro Sheriff:

I did not say that we have an ownership interest in the flying. All flying is Delta flying and should be flown by Delta pilots. Your arguement illustrates my point.

The reason why we do not have negotiating muscle is because ALPA denies ASA and Comair pilots the right to negotiate with Delta, our employer. If we were provided appropriate representation and lost, that would be one thing. But what is happening right now is that our wages and working conditions are being negotiated in our absence.

Time after time this union has had its butt kicked when they allow alter ego airlines to spring up and dilute mainline's bargaining power. The policy to deal with this is to merge the seniority lists and bring the pilots together. This is nothing new.

What is new is that an MEC has been given the power to thwart the union's Consitution. Ultimately that will be our union's undoing, but a lot of people are going to be harmed first.

I would rather avoid the harm and will keep preaching on this board to anyone who might listen and finally get it.

 

[publisher]

Over

I really think this battle is over, just the deceased has not been notified of his passing.

The majors have learned their lessons as regards scope, having wholly owned subs, and fixed costs feeders.

The train has left the station, no more letting the feeder dictate to the main carriers. Pinnacle, Freedom, COEX, these are the beginning not the end.

As there is no incentive for the major carrier, no incentive for the major airline pilots, and no incentive for regional management, why would anyone think that this will be resolved as a labor issue.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Not over until we say it is over!

As there is no incentive for the major carrier, no incentive for the major airline pilots, and no incentive for regional management, why would anyone think that this will be resolved as a labor issue.

Because our Nation's laws protect the ability of a union to create and maintain a monopoly on labor. Other laws exist to force mergers when multiple carriers are operating as a single carrier to subvert collective bargaining agreements.

Just because ALPA does not seek to enforce the laws, or use their PAC resources to get the laws enforced, does not mean they don't exist.

 

[goldentrout]

Draginass

It may be a cyclical business, but that doesn't mean we can't set up our benefit and wages so that a bunch of pilots don't get furloughed every 5-10 years.

They didn't furlough at Southwesst after 9/11, nor at Jet Blue. Frontier and Air Tran, by a vote of the pilots I might add, took a pay cut to ensure no one would be on the street...that's a brotherhood.

At Frontier, after the crisis passed, management not only restored full pay and benefits, but gave them full back pay for what they had given up.

It can be done...secure jobs with decent pay and benefits that don't put 20-30% of the workforce on the street during every economic downturn.

It will just take a leader with vision of the future of the airline business, and pilot groups that are more concerned about their fellow pilots than just getting "max pay to the last day."