SCOPE at DELTA

[ACL65PILOT]

And they said that there would be no issue with Scope and the 76 seat limit. It did not even take two weeks.

 

[tbkane]

Both NYC reps are "looking into it". I can't believe that the company and Moak will try to rub our noses in this when it is still sore from the last one. We need to get these airplanes at mainline.

 

[flyboyike]

You know, when I suggest that mainliners will keep caving in on scope, I get told that they "are not in a giving mood". And then...

 

[Metro752]

Just waiting to see what the Delta guys will give up this time.

 

[Fly4hire]

And they said that there would be no issue with Scope and the 76 seat limit. It did not even take two weeks.

They may not have known until the news broke over on APC - the FAA Limit Cert was dated 9 March, and the memo 19 March.

Let's see what the reaction and action from the MEC is on this.

One thing IS for sure - I don't think these moves by management are unintentional, and so far the Score is 0-1 for DALPA.....

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Exactly. They better not cave. It was the whole premise with the CPS issue. It will continually get pushed. Here we are not even in section six and they are doing it.

Now they got two issues on their plate. I will file a grievance so that there is more than just one on record at DALPA.

 

[Monster Buck]

You need the time machine to go back to the 80s....However when you get there, you will get to hear the inflated mainline ego tell you that they don't want to fly "little" airplanes....

I enjoyed my times flying at the regionals and now I enjoy flying at the majors. You have been on here and posted about 1000 times how you don't want to and are not trying to go to a major. BUT you are constantly on the major boards. I think the truth is that you failed and are good at speaking so you try to spin it as something different. Funny...your actions speak louder than your mouth! Keep trying to spin how it was YOUR choice. Every time you come on the major boards it is further proof that you are full of sh1t!

 

[N813CA]

Monster Buck:

I have been stuck at the regionals for 8 years. I would love to work for mainline but for some reason our industry hasn't allowed it. IS that my fault?

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

N813CA- 8 years these days is very common...esp in this decade. Joe is the token angry lifer, though. As they say, "He ain't right."

 

[PCL_128]

You need the time machine to go back to the 80s....However when you get there, you will get to hear the inflated mainline ego tell you that they don't want to fly "little" airplanes....

I hate to admit it, but Joey's right on this one. Everyone forgets that it was the mainline guys who didn't want to fly these airplanes, thinking that "just a few turboprops won't hurt anything," and then it eventually became "it's only a few 50-seaters. What harm could it be?"

The egos and lack of foresight caused this mess. Hopefully pilots are learning their lesson about the importance of scope, but I'm not so sure.

As for this scope violation, I hate to break it to you guys, but you don't have much of a chance of getting it enforced, even if you go to arbitration. Arbitrators aren't fond of telling companies to stop operating airframes that they've already been operating, even if the weight limit changed. The best you'll get out of this is probably a grievance settlement that gives you something else you'd like to have. This is why it's so important to not let the scope go in the first place. Once that E-175 is gone, the weight limit isn't going to really help you that much. The arbitrator will just consider it the same airframe, slap Delta on the wrist, and tell them not to do it again. That's about the best you can hope for in arbitration. The game is stacked against us.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

PCL_128 just illustrated why our union needs to do everything possible to get the large RJs onto mainline property instead of trying to tell us how much revenue they are putting into our pockets.

I seriously almost laughed when my rep was describing to me the "revenue" they are putting into my pockets.... there lies the current problem right there.

 

[PCL_128]

I seriously almost laughed when my rep was describing to me the "revenue" they are putting into my pockets.... there lies the current problem right there.

You've gotta be kidding me. Which rep said that? (email if you'd prefer not to say publicly) Have these guys still not learned their lessons after 25 years of scope erosion?

 

[scarlet]

And PCL suppports ALPA.

RJDC---ALPA supports Regionals but supports Majors?

ALPA and all their resources and still can't get it right? Prater " we are taking it back"= JOKE !

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

PCL- all of them.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL- all of them.

Unbelievable.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

That would be exact phrase that came to my mind... hopefully the former NWA guys can help us put some sense into them.

 

[PCL_128]

That would be exact phrase that came to my mind... hopefully the former NWA guys can help us put some sense into them.

Well, one of the EVPs is Captain Ray Miller, former Council 20 Chairman. Ray was adamantly opposed to the concessionary TA, because he didn't even like the creation of Compass in the first place. He was standing strong on not giving up a single seat of scope. Unfortunately, Council 20 was vastly outnumbered. I would imagine that the current Council 20 reps are probably still of like mind, also, but again, they're heavily outnumbered on a 30+ member MEC. Maybe those few voices can sway some opinions.

 

[Monster Buck]

Monster Buck:

I have been stuck at the regionals for 8 years. I would love to work for mainline but for some reason our industry hasn't allowed it. IS that my fault?

I don't know if it is or not. As I wasn't referring to you or regional pilots in general. I flew for the regionals for ten years. Maybe you didn't read the ten times I specifically referenced Joe and was specifically speaking to him. You must have missed his 4600 anti-major posts hear on the major forum. Some how after five references to Joe you thought I was speaking generally. HE (that is JOE not you) has said all these years he wasn't stuck it was his CHOICE. Since that is a choice, it again wouldn't apply to you.

 

[hockeypilot44]

Monster Buck:

I have been stuck at the regionals for 8 years. I would love to work for mainline but for some reason our industry hasn't allowed it. IS that my fault?

Yes it is. I was hired at my first regional just over five years ago. I have interviewed with numerous majors in that period. You have to actually send out applications to more than one airline and more than once to each airline to get an interview. It was not that long ago that everyone was hiring. There are circumstances that warrant spending years at a regional, but there was a lot of hiring from 2005 - early 2008.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Oh this is gonna get good now...

 

[another cfii]

Notice: No intention to flame...

Background: DAL mainline, junior FO, flying with 2 relatively junior CAs.(both have voted No on LOA 19) I've brought up the issue of scope during my trips this month. Let me summarize what my CA had told me:

Guy 1) Scope is only good if it'll help the company to make more money and long term viability. If he can get some sweetheart deal out of scope, he considers scope as bargaining chip. He thinks that the "little" RJ is beneath him, and it is a big time money loser (I explained to him that while it's true for the 50 seater, that "little" E-175 ain't the same money loser anymore). I brought up the latest LEC meeting authorizes to research into the matter of stabling CPZ beneath us, and he thought it's only good for the junior pilots like me, ie furlough protection, but he doesn't see the benefits to the whole pilot group.

Guy 2) He agreed that scope should be taken back, we have lost too many mainline routes to RJ. However, stabling CPZ is not the solution, it only hides it. He pointed out that RJ are not making money, and mainline pilots should not fly anything smaller than MD88. He pointed out that if CPZ is to be stapled onto our list, when hiring starts, we would have a tough time attracting competitive interviewees, i.e. ex-military, regional CA to come to mainline to fly a RJ, with a b scale payscale. He thought that our union should never allow b scale flying in mainline.

I think therein lies our problems in restoring scope. Flame away...

 

[nwaredtail]

Notice: No intention to flame...

Background: DAL mainline, junior FO, flying with 2 relatively junior CAs.(both have voted No on LOA 19) I've brought up the issue of scope during my trips this month. Let me summarize what my CA had told me:

Guy 1) Scope is only good if it'll help the company to make more money and long term viability. If he can get some sweetheart deal out of scope, he considers scope as bargaining chip. He thinks that the "little" RJ is beneath him, and it is a big time money loser (I explained to him that while it's true for the 50 seater, that "little" E-175 ain't the same money loser anymore). I brought up the latest LEC meeting authorizes to research into the matter of stabling CPZ beneath us, and he thought it's only good for the junior pilots like me, ie furlough protection, but he doesn't see the benefits to the whole pilot group.

Guy 2) He agreed that scope should be taken back, we have lost too many mainline routes to RJ. However, stabling CPZ is not the solution, it only hides it. He pointed out that RJ are not making money, and mainline pilots should not fly anything smaller than MD88. He pointed out that if CPZ is to be stapled onto our list, when hiring starts, we would have a tough time attracting competitive interviewees, i.e. ex-military, regional CA to come to mainline to fly a RJ, with a b scale payscale. He thought that our union should never allow b scale flying in mainline.

I think therein lies our problems in restoring scope. Flame away...

Don't forget to ask him what he thinks about scope when they park DC-9's and MD-88's, he goes back to WB FO and takes a 30-40k paycut. Me thinks his story will change a bit.

 

[aircowboy]

These Delta CA's need to pull there head out.

 

[samballs]

These Delta CA's need to pull there head out.

Thats funny, everyone has been saying that since they allowed RJ's. they'll cave on this and every other scope issue, until there is only 2 pilots left, they'll hold the line.

 

[another cfii]

Sadly, I think some of our CA are still reminiscing the good 'ole days of C2k, and I think we need some ground root campaign to educate our fellow airmen in the recent changes in our industries.

 

[Superpilot92]

Don't forget to ask him what he thinks about scope when they park DC-9's and MD-88's, he goes back to WB FO and takes a 30-40k paycut. Me thinks his story will change a bit.

exactly! :nuts:

 

[michael707767]

Notice: No intention to flame...

Background: DAL mainline, junior FO, flying with 2 relatively junior CAs.(both have voted No on LOA 19) I've brought up the issue of scope during my trips this month. Let me summarize what my CA had told me:

Guy 1) Scope is only good if it'll help the company to make more money and long term viability. If he can get some sweetheart deal out of scope, he considers scope as bargaining chip. He thinks that the "little" RJ is beneath him, and it is a big time money loser (I explained to him that while it's true for the 50 seater, that "little" E-175 ain't the same money loser anymore). I brought up the latest LEC meeting authorizes to research into the matter of stabling CPZ beneath us, and he thought it's only good for the junior pilots like me, ie furlough protection, but he doesn't see the benefits to the whole pilot group.

Guy 2) He agreed that scope should be taken back, we have lost too many mainline routes to RJ. However, stabling CPZ is not the solution, it only hides it. He pointed out that RJ are not making money, and mainline pilots should not fly anything smaller than MD88. He pointed out that if CPZ is to be stapled onto our list, when hiring starts, we would have a tough time attracting competitive interviewees, i.e. ex-military, regional CA to come to mainline to fly a RJ, with a b scale payscale. He thought that our union should never allow b scale flying in mainline.

I think therein lies our problems in restoring scope. Flame away...

No flame. I submit to you both those captains are ignorant as to what our piss poor scope is doing to them. We should not fly an aircraft smaller than an 88? Is he kidding? Guess what......the 737-700 is smaller. Ask him if we should give that to the regionals.

 

[Flyer1015]

You need the time machine to go back to the 80s....However when you get there, you will get to hear the inflated mainline ego tell you that they don't want to fly "little" airplanes....

Ain't that the truth. Sucks big time.

 

[Flyer1015]

He pointed out that RJ are not making money, and mainline pilots should not fly anything smaller than MD88.

And you wonder who's to blame for the RJ being sold down the farm? There is your answer! Certain mainline pilots are "too good" to fly a RJ.

That's why I have zero sympathy for any mainline pilot who beotches at regional jet guys for "taking their flying." Realize that it's the very attitude described above, by mainline pilots, that we are in this mess to begin with.

 

[Flyer1015]

Yes it is. I was hired at my first regional just over five years ago. I have interviewed with numerous majors in that period. You have to actually send out applications to more than one airline and more than once to each airline to get an interview. It was not that long ago that everyone was hiring. There are circumstances that warrant spending years at a regional, but there was a lot of hiring from 2005 - early 2008.

In that timeframe you described, everyone I know who went from my regional airline to Continental and United are now furloughed. This "there are circumstances that warrant spending years at a regional" attitude needs to go away. Forget spending years at a regional, for MANY pilots in todays industry, they will spend their career at the regional. It's just how it is. And unlike your thought process, not everyone wants to jump at the opportunity to be on reserve at Continental barely making $30,000 with no medical benefits for the first six months. There are plenty of regional pilots, who in their position, would be crazy to jump ship. I know plenty of Eagle Captains who won't be going anywhere. Doesn't mean they "didn't make the cut" , it just means their current QOL and time in life makes it more worth it to stay at the regional.