RJDC Update - March 8 (part 1)

[surplus1]

Surplus,

Read your lawsuit again. It is not we who are trying to take your airplanes, it is you who are trying to take ours. If you were to win, what would stop mgt from shifting all of our airplanes to the lowest bidder?

FDJ,

It's not likely that you and I are going to agree on the litigation. You see the outcome one way and I see it another. We've explored our differences at length with no change on either side.

If we should win, then what happens will depend on what we win and what we subsequently decide to do about it. I can't predict the future.

What I personally would hope for is the return of that part of your Scope clause that directly affects Comair and ASA to what it was in your 1996 PWA coupled with your being estopped from changing that without mutual agreement. The remainder of your Scope would remain as is or as subsequently modified by you.

I would then hope that we could sit down together and agree as to where the dividing lines should be drawn in the mutual interests of our Company and each other, and how to provide access to the flying by both parties in the event of future reductions in force affecting either party.

I do not want any of your traditional equipment to be transferred to Comair without your consent and I know and believe that the principals in this litigation share my views and do not want that either. I also do not want a number on your list and neither do they. While I acknowledge that some of our pilots may, I see that as a personal choice and it is not a part of the litigation nor its potential outcome.

The remainder of what I would want has only to do with the ALPA and not with Delta specifically. I believe the desired changes would improve the Association's ability to represent all of its members equitably notwithstanding the diversity among pilot groups. That ability certainly does not exist today and, in my view, is necessary if the union is to survive in peace. That is all.

Also, the only reason that cmr is not hiring DAL pilots is that they are afraid that "the cmr guys would burn the house down." That is a direct quote from our VP of flight ops. All we needed from you was assurances that your pilot group would not object. Your mec would not even do that. And you agree with that?

I do not doubt that your VP of Flt. Ops. may have said that to you or to someone else. I would not even doubt that our VP of Flt. Ops. might have told him that as a convenient c-y-a for the position of Comair's management on the retention of seniority issue, which is the key to the whole thing. VPs say a lot of things from time to time. Some are factual and others are not, but you knew that.

I have enjoyed our conversations. But you should be ashamed of yourself for supporting that decision. It was petty and small-minded, and it would have cost you nothing but the price of a stamp. Instead, your group tried to use our furloughees as hostages in an attempt to destroy our job protections.

I have enjoyed our conversations as well and hope to continue to do so. I must tell you however, that I am not at all ashamed of supporting that decision and do not feel a particular need to defend it or justify it. In my tenure at Comair I have experienced many decisions of the Delta MEC that were, are, and will remain no less palatable to me than this decision of the Comair MEC is to you. Although I know and have known many Delta pilots, not a single one of them has ever apologized to me or anyone else at Comair that I am aware of, for any of those decisions of your MEC. Neither has anyone on your MEC or in your pilot group ever expressed regret for your MEC's decisions.

As you yourself point out, the CMR MEC decision possibly affects only a handful of Delta pilots who may have elected to apply at Comair. In contrast, certain decisions of the Delta MEC have adversely affected every Comair pilot and will continue to do so for the forseable future. That doesn't seem to bother you or your peers in the least. Why do you then expect that this decision which potentially affects but a handful of Delta pilots, shoud bother me or my peers?

Your mec has shown their true colors, and absent any outcry from your pilot group, I have to assume that they agree with the actions of their leadership.

Your MEC has been showing its true colors towards the Comair pilot group for no less than ten consecutive years of which I have personal knowledge. Absent not only an outcry but not as much as a single objection from your pilot group, I too must assume that they agree with their leadership. Literally hundreds have so stated in the ALPA forums past and present, this forum, other forums, the Widget, Roar from 44, The old NY LEC newsletter, the BOS news letter and associated other official publications of your MEC, and etc.

Your people have called us every name in the book both privately and in public forums, questioned our backgrounds, accused us of incompetence, demeaned our professional qualifications and rediculed our imagined lack of education for nearly a decade, consistently. At one point some of your people were even calling us scabs on the radio, not once or twice but with regularity, because someone in your management and my management decided to paint our airplanes in your livery; an event that we didn't like any more than you did.

There is much more that I could say about the attitudes, remarks and actions of your MEC members, Officers and general membership towards Comair pilots, but why bother. Talk about "petty". My friend you know not of what you speak.

Without tangible evidence that the DAL pilot group disagrees with their MEC in those matters that I have mentioned, I will continue to support that my MEC should do nothing extraordinary to facilitate the hiring by Comair of Delta pilots that retain their Delta seniority. If any of you choose to resign your Delta seniority and come here as Comair pilots, then you will be welcome.

In the event our Company decides to change its hiring policies and allow Delta pilots to come here with their Delta seniority retained, I assure you that they will be accepted, treated with professional respect, and assisted in every way possible by Comair line pilots, instructors and staff. You may not know it, but that's our way of doing things. We most certainly will not "burn our house down" over that, contrary to the opinion/allegation of you VP Flt. Ops. Don't believe everything you hear, FDJ. Do not form opinions of what you think my group might do, based upon what your group might do. All birds do not have the same feathers.

We have not made nor are we making any threats towards individual Delta pilots or the Delta pilot group as a whole, despite our differences. Your group both has and is. You live in a glass palace, FDJ. Better keep your stones in your pocket.

Your furloughees are not victims of a Comair MEC decision. They are pawns being used in furtherance of your own MEC's political agenda which unfortunately has little to do with securing work for them, least of all at Comair. Call a spade a spade.

I feel confident that your mec's actions will hurt their own pilot group far more than they hurt the mere handful of our pilots who would have gone to cmr.

You refer to us a "petty and small-minded" and then you make a thinly vieled threat like that? Who was it again that's showing their "true colors". Give me a break, FDJ, I wasn't born yesterday.

 

[Clownpilot]

Please please

Surplus will gladly argue this topic until the sun burns out on its own. I can't take his pontification any longer. It's unending.

He will gleefully post 7 part, 9 page, self serving diatribes to anyone who will engage him and will remain steadfast in his opinions, unwaving, until he is dead.

I am begging this board to take out a gun, put it to the head of this thread, and pull the trigger. Why this topic is still alive is beyond me.

We can only stand so much.
Have mercy.

 

[skydiverdriver]

As far as the statement that "no Comair pilot wants to fly for Delta" that was reported in the Widget. I'm know you disagree with the validity of the statement but it was in print. Whether it was acutaully said or not is really not important.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, you are saying that it's okay for your leadership to lie to you (and everyone else) in print?

 

[C425Driver]

Surplus Wrote:

"Your mec has shown their true colors, and absent any outcry from your pilot group, I have to assume that they agree with the actions of their leadership. As such, I hope that the cmr mec gets their wish. Delta pilots shouldn't be sharing a cockpit with cmr pilots. Of course, the same will be true when we start hiring again. Without tangible evidence that the cmr pilot group disagrees with their mec in this matter, I will continue to propose that we never hire another cmr pilot. I feel confident that your mec's actions will hurt their own pilot group far more than they hurt the mere handful of our pilots who would have gone to cmr."


Surplus,

There are many of us who disagree with the actions of our mec in this case - we actually believe that our union should start acting like a union and helping each other without invoking alterior motives. Unfortunately, there seems to be a veil of secrecy and vagueness surrounding our mec. While we were informed that there would be a meeting between our mec's, we weren't informed of details of discussion ahead of time (just very broad subjects) or our mec's position on these points. Only after hearing details from the DAL side, did we finally hear our mec's side of the story.

If I thought that voicing my opinion to my mec would help even in the slightest bit, I would do so. But for now, I've resigned to the fact that I will never have a shot at employment at DAL, since I will be forever villified for the uniform that I wear regardless of my stance on my mec's actions and the rjdc lawsuit.

C425Driver

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

FDJ,

What I personally would hope for is the return of that part of your Scope clause that directly affects Comair and ASA to what it was in your 1996 PWA coupled with your being estopped from changing that without mutual agreement. The remainder of your Scope would remain as is or as subsequently modified by you.


Ironically, that is not at all what you asked for in your suit. Sorry, but I am not ready to trust your good intentions simply because you ask me to. I am especially wary of someone's motives when they are suing our union for $12,000,000 for EACH cmr pilot, a total of about $15,000,000,000.



I would then hope that we could sit down together and agree as to where the dividing lines should be drawn in the mutual interests of our Company and each other, and how to provide access to the flying by both parties in the event of future reductions in force affecting either party.



Sorry, I prefer instead to leave the union and keep our scope clause intact. Once we do so, no more DFR, and we'll keep our scope. You will have bankrupted the union, so us staying or leaving is kind of a moot point.



I do not want any of your traditional equipment to be transferred to Comair without your consent and I know and believe that the principals in this litigation share my views and do not want that either.


Oh, I'm sorry. I was reading the CONTENT of your lawsuit where it asks a judge to do exactly that. But I am supposed to feel better because you say that you don't want it. Guess what? Once you are done killing our scope, it won't much matter what either of us want, as mgt will have the ability to give all our airplanes to the lowest bidder. That is, unless we leave the union.




I do not doubt that your VP of Flt. Ops. may have said that to you or to someone else. I would not even doubt that our VP of Flt. Ops. might have told him that as a convenient c-y-a for the position of Comair's management on the retention of seniority issue, which is the key to the whole thing. VPs say a lot of things from time to time. Some are factual and others are not, but you knew that.





Wait a minute. You have been telling us for years that cmr mgt is a puppet for DAL mgt. Now you are telling me that Delta can't control CMR mgt. Which is it. You know as well as I do that if Leo told your mgt to hire Delta pilots, it would be done tomorrow. They will not do so because your mec made a stink. Ironic that the ASA mec did not do so, and we now have furloughed Delta pilots there. Plus, I have read the letter from lawson. The facts are not in dispute, I accept his account. I just think that it is despicable.



As you yourself point out, the CMR MEC decision possibly affects only a handful of Delta pilots who may have elected to apply at Comair. In contrast, certain decisions of the Delta MEC have adversely affected every Comair pilot and will continue to do so for the forseable future. That doesn't seem to bother you or your peers in the least. Why do you then expect that this decision which potentially affects but a handful of Delta pilots, shoud bother me or my peers?





The actions of my mec all are done to foster the growth of high paying jobs and limit the outsourcing of our work to low wage carriers. While that might not benefit the small number of regional pilots who choose (or are forced) to make a career at the regional, it benefits the large majority who dream of moving on to the majors. Your mec's actions harm many and benefit none, and they were done purely out of spite.




Your MEC has been showing its true colors towards the Comair pilot group for no less than ten consecutive years of which I have personal knowledge. Absent not only an outcry but not as much as a single objection from your pilot group, I too must assume that they agree with their leadership. Literally hundreds have so stated in the ALPA forums past and present, this forum, other forums, the Widget, Roar from 44, The old NY LEC newsletter, the BOS news letter and associated other official publications of your MEC, and etc.

You better believe I support my leadership.



Your people have called us every name in the book both privately and in public forums, questioned our backgrounds, accused us of incompetence, demeaned our professional qualifications and rediculed our imagined lack of education for nearly a decade, consistently. At one point some of your people were even calling us scabs on the radio, not once or twice but with regularity, because someone in your management and my management decided to paint our airplanes in your livery; an event that we didn't like any more than you did.


I have no control over the actions of individual pilots. However, since I have been on these boards, FAR more insults have been directed at my group than any other. Get over it. I do.




There is much more that I could say about the attitudes, remarks and actions of your MEC members, Officers and general membership towards Comair pilots, but why bother. Talk about "petty". My friend you know not of what you speak.


I'll thank you not to tell me what I do or don't know.




Without tangible evidence that the DAL pilot group disagrees with their MEC in those matters that I have mentioned, I will continue to support that my MEC should do nothing extraordinary to facilitate the hiring by Comair of Delta pilots that retain their Delta seniority. If any of you choose to resign your Delta seniority and come here as Comair pilots, then you will be welcome.

That's just the point. You were never asked to do anything extraordinary. In fact, just the opposite. Your pilot group is currently acting AGAINST the hiring of our pilots. When we do the same, please don't be surprised.

P.S.
I wouldn't be so quick to welcome anyone who would resign a Delta seniority number for cmr. He would obviously be insane, and a danger to himself and his passengers.



In the event our Company decides to change its hiring policies and allow Delta pilots to come here with their Delta seniority retained, I assure you that they will be accepted, treated with professional respect, and assisted in every way possible by Comair line pilots, instructors and staff. You may not know it, but that's our way of doing things. We most certainly will not "burn our house down" over that, contrary to the opinion/allegation of you VP Flt. Ops. Don't believe everything you hear, FDJ. Do not form opinions of what you think my group might do, based upon what your group might do. All birds do not have the same feathers.

Then why not make a simple statement to that fact. As a matter of fact, you could send the above paragraph to your mec. It is exactly what they refuse to publically say, and exactly why our furloughees have not been hired. Even if it didn't do the trick, we would then know that our mgt is lying. Why is your mec afraid of making such a statement?




You refer to us a "petty and small-minded" and then you make a thinly vieled threat like that? Who was it again that's showing their "true colors". Give me a break, FDJ, I wasn't born yesterday.

If you thought that was a "thinly veiled threat," then I apologize. I did not mean to make it thinly veiled at all. I meant to make it very explicit. If your mec continues to object to the hiring of our furloughees, I certainly hope that our mec just as strongly objects to the hiring of your pilots. Quid pro Quo.

Your mec has made it clear that they do not want cmr pilots to share a cockpit with Delta pilots. I hope that they get their wish. Permanently.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Surplus Wrote:

"Your mec has shown their true colors, and absent any outcry from your pilot group, I have to assume that they agree with the actions of their leadership. As such, I hope that the cmr mec gets their wish. Delta pilots shouldn't be sharing a cockpit with cmr pilots. Of course, the same will be true when we start hiring again. Without tangible evidence that the cmr pilot group disagrees with their mec in this matter, I will continue to propose that we never hire another cmr pilot. I feel confident that your mec's actions will hurt their own pilot group far more than they hurt the mere handful of our pilots who would have gone to cmr."


Surplus,

There are many of us who disagree with the actions of our mec in this case - we actually believe that our union should start acting like a union and helping each other without invoking alterior motives. Unfortunately, there seems to be a veil of secrecy and vagueness surrounding our mec. While we were informed that there would be a meeting between our mec's, we weren't informed of details of discussion ahead of time (just very broad subjects) or our mec's position on these points. Only after hearing details from the DAL side, did we finally hear our mec's side of the story.

If I thought that voicing my opinion to my mec would help even in the slightest bit, I would do so. But for now, I've resigned to the fact that I will never have a shot at employment at DAL, since I will be forever villified for the uniform that I wear regardless of my stance on my mec's actions and the rjdc lawsuit.

C425Driver

C425,

You responded to Surplus, but it was I who wrote the quote. I feel for those pilots who don't agree with the actions of their representatives. However, the outcry has been pretty small. If your mec is not representing the interests of the majority of your pilots, I suggest a recall. Absent such a movement, isn't is logical to assume that your pilots support the actions of their representatives.

I harbor no ill will toward individual cmr pilots. However, your mec has made it clear that they do not want Delta pilots in cmr cockpits. Isn't is logical to assume that my mec, in response, might take the same stance?

I hope that it is worked out. I have a lot of friends at cmr, and I know a lot of great guys at Delta who came from there. I imagine that many (perhaps the majority) of your pilots disagree with the stance your mec is taking. However, I have no way of knowing that. There has been no outcry, no petitions, very few posts (except from those defending the action) on the national board, no recall effort, no tangible evidence at all that the mec is not accurately representing the interests of the cmr line pilot. Without such evidence, one can only assume that your opinion is that of only a small minority.

I commend you for your opinion and hope that this can be resolved. As it is, however, we must respect the wishes of your leadership. It is obvious that they do not want to see you sharing a cockpit with us. It's a shame.

 

[C425Driver]

FDJ Wrote:


"Ironically, that is not at all what you asked for in your suit. Sorry, but I am not ready to trust your good intentions simply because you ask me to. I am especially wary of someone's motives when they are suing our union for $12,000,000 for EACH cmr pilot, a total of about $15,000,000,000."


FDJ,

We were informed that only named plaintiffs can collect this money from the lawsuit (IF they win). That is why the rjdc was looking to add more plaintiffs to the lawsuit last year - so they could intimidate ALPA with the threat of a bigger payout. As of right now, there are only 3 plaintiffs. If the judge allows it, there will be another 300 plaintiffs added. The other 1200-1300 of us decided not to be part of their lawsuit.

C425Driver

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

C425,

If you are correct, that would certainly make me feel better. I do not doubt your word, but I wonder from where you got that information?

The relief section of the suit asks for $12,000,000 for every cmr pilot. I would be very happy to hear that this is not allowed.

Thanks for the info, and I commend you for staying away from the rjdc bunch. If they get their way, you won't have to worry about getting hired anywhere else. The only people who would ever hire again would be the lowest bidder. Some career, huh?

Thanks again.

 

[C425Driver]

FDJ,

Sorry about misquoting the wrong source.

Our mec's term is up very shortly. By the time we go through the steps of a recall, their term will be over and we will have a new mec in place. I just hope that our new mec will actually take an interest in actively seeking out the opinion of our pilot group as a whole before acting on such important issues. Until our new mec is in place, any outcry that you suggest would fall on deaf ears.

As for your mec not wanting us in your cockpits, I understand that - I don't like it, but I understand it. My point was that there are many of us who disagree with our mec's decision to handle this situation that way they did and now we must live with the consequenses of their actions.

C425Driver

 

[C425Driver]

FDJ wrote:

"If you are correct, that would certainly make me feel better. I do not doubt your word, but I wonder from where you got that information?

The relief section of the suit asks for $12,000,000 for every cmr pilot. I would be very happy to hear that this is not allowed."


I didn't put my source in the last post for a reason - it came from the rjdc (I know, I know....). I've listened to what they've said and I have no reason to doubt them on this one.

If anyone can back this up with more credible (legal) references, I'd like to hear them. But for now, there are 1200-1300 of us who are not planning on getting a dime from this lawsuit.

C425Driver

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

C425,

I would love to believe that there are "many" of you who do not support the actions of your mec. Unfortunately, yours is one of the first posts I have read questioning their them. It would be nice if you were not, as they say, a lone voice in the wilderness.

If "many" of your pilots are upset at this stance, why aren't they speaking up? Your post is one of the only things that I have seen which would indicate that they don't have complete support, and believe me, I have been looking!

Perhaps a petition is in order? It might go a long way towards alleviating any tension between our pilot groups if we knew the actions of your mec did not reflect the wishes of their membership.

I hope this gets resolved, as I have had some pretty good layovers with some pretty cool ex-cmr guys.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus,

As far as the statement that "no Comair pilot wants to fly for Delta" that was reported in the Widget. I'm know you disagree with the validity of the statement but it was in print.

Yes it was. About all I can do is remind you that the Widget is a political publication of the Delta MEC. Political organs seldom deal with facts, they deal with "spin". I've read many "stories" in the Widget and a few more in the Roar from 44. They remind me of the FOX News network and the "O'Reilly factor." He says it is where the spin ends. I say it is where the sping begins. Both perspectives are a matter of opinion.

I agree with you that whether is was actually said or not is of little consequence.

What is important is everything going on between our MECs may adversely effect a young Comair pilot's potential employment with Delta. No our MEC does not control the Delta Pilot hiring process. However, Delta pilots are VERY involved in the hiring process of new Delta pilots as I'm sure is the case in most places. Bad blood between our groups can adversley effect a candidates outcome. It is human nature.

Well, candidly if something going on between our MEC's negatively affects young Comair pilots in the future, that's nothing new. The decisions of your MEC have been adversely affecting every Comair pilot for a long time.

When you and others tell me that disagreements between our MEC's can adversely affect the potential future employment of youg Comair pilots, what you're really doing is threatening me. You are telling me that unless my MEC agrees with whatever your MEC happens to want, your group is going to "take it out" on individual Comair pilots and black-ball them in the future. Candidly that's not going to get you anywhere and it's not going to improve our relations.

I feel that is exactly why your MEC got nowhere in this case. You came in demanding and makeing threats about what you would do if we did not agree to what you wanted. The result was ... we did not agree and you struck out. I don't blame our MEC one bit for that.

I am not on the CMR MEC, but if I were and you came at me with that attitude, I would tell you to pack sand in a heartbeat. Since I'm not unfamiliar with your MEC's tactics I'm not at all surprised. Not everyone cowers when confronted by a bully. Some folks punch the bully in the nose. Comair pilots are numbered among those who do not cringe. We have faced far greater threats than those wielded by the Delta MEC.

For what it is worth, I don't know the exact numbers but there are many former Comair and ASA pilots on the mainline. And while we may not be the only airline out there, I still think it is a pretty d@mn good one to fly for...warts and all.

I know there are quite a few former ASA pilots and some former Comair pilots at Delta. I also agree that Delta is a very fine Company to work for and may well be the "best" of the major airlines. You have every reason to be proud. However, that has little to do with the Delta pilot group and nothing at all to do with the Delta MEC.

Fly safe.

 

[skiddriver]

C425,

If "many" of your pilots are upset at this stance, why aren't they speaking up? Your post is one of the only things that I have seen which would indicate that they don't have complete support, and believe me, I have been looking!

You can't have been looking that hard - see my post about four below yours:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14929&perpage=25&pagenumber=3

There have been several other posts on here from other Comair pilots who feel the same way.

I haven't changed my opinion, but it is also pretty obvious that you guys have earned some of the emnity you find on this board as you post your juvenile "nyah nyah nyah - you'll never work at Delta" posts and try and bully a bunch of young pilots who's only crime is hiring on with one of the few stable and hiring companies available to them. Yeah, that's guaranteed to start a union mutiny at Comair.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus Wrote:
"Your mec has shown their true colors, and absent any outcry from your pilot group, I have to assume that they agree with the actions of their leadership. As such, I hope that the cmr mec gets their wish. Delta pilots shouldn't be sharing a cockpit with cmr pilots. Of course, the same will be true when we start hiring again. Without tangible evidence that the cmr pilot group disagrees with their mec in this matter, I will continue to propose that we never hire another cmr pilot. I feel confident that your mec's actions will hurt their own pilot group far more than they hurt the mere handful of our pilots who would have gone to cmr."

Actually C425, if you check again you will see that I did not write the above paragraph. That was written by FlyDeltasJets. Apparently there was an error in your cut-and-paste technique. If you really want to quote me, please try again.

Surplus,

There are many of us who disagree with the actions of our mec in this case - we actually believe that our union should start acting like a union and helping each other without invoking alterior motives. Unfortunately, there seems to be a veil of secrecy and vagueness surrounding our mec. While we were informed that there would be a meeting between our mec's, we weren't informed of details of discussion ahead of time (just very broad subjects) or our mec's position on these points. Only after hearing details from the DAL side, did we finally hear our mec's side of the story.

I respect your right to disagree with the MEC's decision. Perhaps if you care to give me an idea of how long you have been a Comair pilot, I could reach a better understanding of why you disagree. For the record, I don't always agree with MEC decisions either, but I do agree with this one.

I'm sorry that you feel there is a "veil of secrecy and vagueness" surrounding the Comair MEC. I do not share that opinion. I've been a Comair pilot for 15 years and have not encountered the situation you describe. The MEC, be it the CMR MEC or any other MEC, is not always able to conduct it's business in public. In most cases it is not possible to inform the pilot group "ahead of time" of the details of future discussions, be they with the Company, with other MEC's or internal. Usually the MEC itself is unaware of "the details" before the fact.

Do you believe that the Delta MEC informed Delta pilots of the details of the discussion before it took place? That would mean they are clairvoyant. I can assure you that they are not. Was the Delta pilot group at large informed that there would be a meeting, when it would occur, who would attend and what they would say before the fact or did they learn about it when their MEC's threat to "go public" was carried out and its "spin" was released, after the meeting? Do you think that the Delta pilots were polled in advance to determine their position on preferential hiring of Comair pilots before the Delta MEC passed its "resolution" directing the Chariman to meet with Comair or were they informed after the resolution was already passed?

Do you believe that the Delta MEC has accurately and factually informed the Delta pilot group and you of what really happened in that meeting?

Again, I respect your opinion and your right to have it. I must also tell you that I don't believe the Delta MEC's propaganda one iota. If you do believe that, my friend you have a great deal to learn about politics. You also should take a second look at who your real friends are. When you're deciding whom to believe and whom not to believe, keep that in mind.

When you say

we actually believe that our union should start acting like a union and helping each other without invoking ulterior motives.

, what exactly do you mean? Is "our union" the ALPA? Is "our union" the Delta MEC? Is "our union" the Comair pilot group?

If your reference is to the Comair pilots' union, then I would say that our union has been trying to do exactly what you want and believe, for the last twenty years. If your reference is to the ALPA, I would say the term "union" is an oxymoron. If your reference is to the Delta MEC, then I'll leave the answer to the Delta pilots. I can't judge them, they must do that themselves.

If I thought that voicing my opinion to my mec would help even in the slightest bit, I would do so. But for now, I've resigned to the fact that I will never have a shot at employment at DAL, since I will be forever villified for the uniform that I wear regardless of my stance on my mec's actions and the rjdc lawsuit.

If you truly do not know that voicing your opinion to your MEC will indeed have an effect, then my opinion would be that you have not been a Comair pilot for very long. Give it a try. You will not always get what you want, simply because there are 1500 of us and we each have at least two differing opinions on just about everything. However, the CMR MEC works for Comair pilots and I know from personal experience that it not only listens to the opinions of the pilot group, but actively solicits them. If that were not the case, we could never have possessed the solidarity that was demonstrated before and during our unfortunate strike. I'm not a member of the MEC, but I know that the opinions of pilots are welcome and the door is wide open to all of us.

If your goal is future employment at Delta, then you resign yourself far too easily to accepting the rhetoric of a few disgruntled Delta pilots as being the end of your opportunity. Don't let them sell you that pig in a poke quite so readily.

Please try to recognize that the purpose and intent of the Delta pilots rhetoric on this issue, as well as the Delta MEC's propaganda and spin, is and orchestrated and concerted effort to divide the Comair pilot group against itself and its MEC, so as to facilitate the imposition of the Delta MEC's agenda. Don't fall so easily into that political trap. They are deliberately trying to divide us ... don't let them.

If it is true that your stance with respect to your MEC's actions or the current RJDC litigation will actually preclude your consideration for future employment by Delta Air Lines, then perhaps you should take a second look at your ambition to join a group that would act in that way against individual pilots about whose political position they have little or no knowledge. My friend, "all that glitters is not gold."

Best regards and thank you for voicing your opinions.

Fraternally,
Surplus1

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

You can't have been looking that hard - see my post about four below yours:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14929&perpage=25&pagenumber=3

There have been several other posts on here from other Comair pilots who feel the same way.

Skid,

I think that you'll find that I said that C's post was "one of" the only signs I have seen.

As for the rest of your post, I think that blame lies with your mec, not our pilots. After all, we are just doing as they ask.

Thank you for your opinion, and thank you for making it known to your mec. If enough of your pilots do the same, perhaps they would abandon their divisive and petty stance.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Well, candidly if something going on between our MEC's negatively affects young Comair pilots in the future, that's nothing new. The decisions of your MEC have been adversely affecting every Comair pilot for a long time.

Really? I see no evidence of this at all. Your pilots are flying bigger airplanes to more places making more money and growing faster than any time in your history. You are doing so with flying that we have (mistakenly) allowed you to have. If our mec's actions are adversly affecting you, then I hope that they do the same to me soon!

Let's face it. When you hired on to cmr 15 years ago, your expectation was to fly a brasilia from CVG to various podunk airports around Kentucky. Now you are flying 70 seat jets all over North America. At the same time, we are shrinking and being replaced by you in every hub we have. Sell your sob story somewhere else, because most of us aren't buying. Your career has not been harmed one bit, despite your constant allegations to the contrary.

 

[skiddriver]

Skid,

I think that you'll find that I said that C's post was "one of" the only signs I have seen.

-- Okay, I did reread that and I apologize for misstating your sentiments.

As for the rest of your post, I think that blame lies with your mec, not our pilots. After all, we are just doing as they ask.

-- This is more of what I was referring to. You object to a decison that I also disagree with. But then you make this passo/aggro "just doing what they ask" deal. You and I both know that YOU do what YOU want. You're trying to threaten the younger guys who have come on at Comair to get something YOU want. You can't threaten Capt Lawson because he isn't going to apply to Delta in this lifetime. I'm a new hire, but I'm too old to care much about anything other than seeing my wife and kids as often as I can. So you're trotting out this "you'll never work at Delta" stuff to...to...what? Abuse a bunch of non-voting Comair new hire apprentice union members who are just looking to get a decent start with the only viable corporation that will hire them right now? Maybe it satisfies some sense of frustration you feel, but have you thought about how your bullying tactics effects you? Being tough and being mean are two different things.

Thank you for your opinion, and thank you for making it known to your mec. If enough of your pilots do the same, perhaps they would abandon their divisive and petty stance.

-- I appreciate your thanks, and I thank you for caring about the furloughees from your company and from the other airlines who have people out of work. Change comes from within. Maybe you could put aside your anger for a minute and think instead how we can change things for the better for all of us.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Skid,

I respect your opinion, and I didn't mean to sound bullying. I did, however, mean to convey the message that the cmr mec's actions are despicable, and they shoud have consequences. I, for one, cannot continue as if it were just business as usual. I think that their stance was petty and mean, and only hurt a few innocent pilots who wanted nothing more than to continue to fly and support their families.

I abhor their decision, and feel strongly that our mec should do something in response. I do not, however, want to harm innocent people (unlike lawson). That is why I keep trying to encourage cmr pilots to make it known if the mec is not representing their wishes. If there were an outcry from the cmr ranks, we could assume that they don't agree with their mec. However, absent such an outcry, shouldn't we assume that most agree with their stance? And if so, don't we have the right to treat them in kind?

I want to believe you. I want to believe that most cmr pilots don't support the petty and small-minded decision of your mec. I only wish I saw more things to support such an assertion. Right now, however, excluding a few posts on a message board, I see no evidence of that at all. Therefore, it is all too easy to assume that their silence indicates consent.

If more of your pilots did as you did, we might not have been having this discussion. Hopefully those silent majority (?) will follow your lead. Maybe a petition is in order? If more people would have the courage to stand up and be heard, then it would be easier to avoid lumping them in with their representatives. Right now, however, I don't see how we have much choice.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Jesus Christ, enough already!

The RJDC's cause evaporated on September 11th. Look at United and American...the days of the mega-airline are over, folks. With the things that are happening to the Delta-ASA-Comair-SkyWest-Chataqua route structure, how can the RJDC still argue that we "small jet" guys are getting screwed?

(Hint: it's the former MD-88 F/O who's now working in, say, a furniture shop who's getting screwed!)

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

I have a hard time seeing their logic myself, Typhoon.

However, I think their case was over the day they filed it. 9/11 only made it more clear how ridiculous it is.

 

[skiddriver]

Skid,

I respect your opinion, and I didn't mean to sound bullying.

You know, I'm sure your didn't.

However, absent such an outcry, shouldn't we assume that most agree with their stance? And if so, don't we have the right to treat them in kind?

No, and no. Let me make this easier for you. Go explain this situation to your religious leader (priest, pastor, mullah, rabbi) and tell them you think that it's acceptable to injure someone you don't know, whose opinions you don't know, in retaliation for an injury they didn't cause. If you lived in my parish, I think Father John would give YOU something to think about.

Right now, however, excluding a few posts on a message board, I see no evidence of that at all. Therefore, it is all too easy to assume that their silence indicates consent.

Doing the wrong thing is always easier.

If more of your pilots did as you did, we might not have been having this discussion. Hopefully those silent majority (?) will follow your lead. Maybe a petition is in order? If more people would have the courage to stand up and be heard, then it would be easier to avoid lumping them in with their representatives. Right now, however, I don't see how we have much choice.

Our hands are dirty. We were presented with an opportunity to help some men and women who were in a moment of need. We failed as a group to meet this challenge. My church (Catholic) calls this a social sin. I don't care to hear about old hurts and justification. I want to know what is going to be done for these men and women who are in need? I think that all right thinking people should question this situation, and consider what they can do (besides pointing fingers and casting blame) to provide the assistance to our fellow pilots that they and their families might require.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Skid,

I don't want to hurt the innocent. That is why I am encouraging them to speak up and be heard. If they don't, then they are giving tacit approval to the actions of their reps.

If I know of a crime and do nothing to stop it, am I innocent? What would Father John say about that? 16 years of Catholic education makes me pretty sure of the answer!

I am frightened that the cmr mec represents the feelings of the majority of cmr pilots. If that is the case, I agree with lawson that we should not share a cockpit. If it is not the case, many of us would like to know it.

You asked me for ideas. I think a good start would be to circulate a petition to be given to both DAL and cmr mec's, indicating that the signers supported the hiring of furloughed Delta pilots at cmr. I think that this simple action would go a long way towards restoring some goodwill between the groups, and it might prompt lawson to rethink his selfish and reckless stance. If not, might I suggest that a recall would be in order.


P.S.
In the interest of full disclosure, I am one of the furloughed. However, right now I have no intention of accepting a cmr job if it were offered. Of course, times and situations could always change.

 

[captainv]

another voice

FlyDeltasJets,

Skid isn't alone, there are other Comair pilots who would welcome Delta furloughees with open arms. as for not seeing many of them here, i guess it depends on how hard you look. i've made several posts, usually in response to Gen. Lee. also, the delta pilot group dwarfs us by about 10-to-1, which sort of falls in line with the numbers i see on these boards.

as i've said to Gen. Lee, i respect your views and your opinions, but it irks me when i read that Delta pilots have no beef with most comair pilots, but yet they can't wait to blackball me from Delta without any regard to my own beliefs.

personally, i think we should hire Delta furloughees simply because it's the right thing to do. one of the big sticking points i find talking to other Comair pilots is letting them keep their seniority at Delta. we're hiring lots of furloughees from other places right now, (half the pilots in my class came from another airline) but they have to resign their numbers. most Comair pilots want something in return for showing special consideration to the Delta pilots, even moreso if we were to give preference to hiring Delta pilots over other carriers. i see their point, and after talking to me, they often see mine.

a good friend of mine (who taught me how to fly), is one of the many Delta furloughees. i would do anything in my power to get him a job here, if he wanted it. he has paid his dues and then some, while i have had an easy ride throughout my career. it's just not fair.

i'm new to the airline industry, so i don't know the history here. when i fly, i tell the captain how i see things, and i listen to his views. i've had passionate discussions with Delta captains in the jumpseat on my way to work. but despite the range of opinions out there, we all treat each other with respect in the real world.

of course i'd like to fly for the majors someday, but if that isn't in the cards, that's okay too. god only knows what the aviation landscape will look like when i have competitive numbers. as for those who would deny me that chance, Comair and Delta pilots alike, well, that's your choice and i'll just have to live with it.

i come to this board to try to better understand the issues, but i take everything i read with a grain of salt. none of us know all the facts, but we've all got our own opinions. no matter which side you stand on, methinks the truth lies somewhere in the middle. and as for all comair pilots being of one mind on this, it's not true. I for one can see valid points on both sides....

Captainv

 

[skiddriver]

Skid,

16 years of Catholic education makes me pretty sure of the answer!

Props homey! (My daughter says I'm too old to say that). At least you know where I'm coming from.

In the interest of full disclosure, I am one of the furloughed.

I picked up on that from one of your earlier posts. I hope that you and your family aren't suffering and that you get back to work, at Delta, or wherevever you choose, soon. I'm going to keep speaking out on this issue at work, but unfortunately, I think that both the Delta and Comair MEC's have moved on, leaving the charred wreckage of what could have been a workable idea behind them. We're in the "recriminations and revenge" stage now.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Captain V,

I'll make a couple of points in response to your post.

#1. Yes, hiring furloughed pilots IS the right thing to do. It is just a shame that your mec has chosen to do the wrong thing.

#2. Because this began primarily as an interview board, and the Delta pilots have no need of job searh help, I disagree with your assessment that Delta pilots outnumber cmr pilots on this board. I think it is quite the opposite, in fact. For many months, I have been the only regular Delta pilot on these boards. Only recently have a few reenforcements arrived! Even though your numbers are greater, most of the posts have actually been in support of the mec's decision. That upsets me greatly, although I do thank you for speaking out. Perhaps if more people did so, your mec might listen.

#3. We offered to pursue preferential hiring for cmr pilots in exchange for your mec dropping their objections to our hiring. This was not enough for your mec. According to their own admission, they wanted us to a) decimate our job protections (scope), b) then in turn get scope for them! and c) pursue onelist. They were also uset that we wouldn't pursue a 100% preferencial hiring scheme, even though we were not asking them to pursue one. Now I would be happy to pursue onelist, even though I think mgt would be insane to ever agree, and therefore don't think it is possible. However, I REFUSE to give up my scope clause. It is the most important job protection that we have, and waaayyy too high a price to pay just to get your mec to NOT OBJECT to a few Delta pilots at cmr. That's all we want. We don't need any work, any effort, any negotiating capital spent. We just want a simple statment saying that the cmr pilots support the hiring of Delta furloughees. lawson (again, by his own admission) could not even do that. Shameful. And it is being done in your names, and very few of you have done anything about it. Your pilots should not expect us to be forgiving when their silence indicates tacit approval of the actions being taken on their behalf. If your pilots are against this policy, than do something to stop it, for it is naive to think that there will not be consequences to such a petty and devisive action.

If there are ramifications, and you are looking for someone to blame, you can start with your own mec. If you are looking for ways to stop your mec from taking actions that are not representative of thier membership's wishes, please see my post below.

Thank you for speaking out. You can do something to change it.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Skid,

Thank you for the kind words. It is just a shame that you have accepted that your mec is not acting to fairly represent the wishes of your pilot group (as you have indicated to me). If that many people disagree with them, then a petition and a recall process is in order. Absent any such effort, don't you agree that your group is giving tacit approval to your mec's pitiful actions?

It is not too late. Even though the mec's have moved on, that does not mean your pilot group has to. If they are not representing the views of the majority, they should be removed. Or perhaps you are misreading your group, and their stance is the will of the majority? Right now, it is easy to conclude the latter.

 

[skiddriver]

FDJ,

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I have a finger on the pulse of the Comair pilot group, because frankly, I don't absolutely know how they feel about the Delta furloughees as a whole. I'm too small a fish here I'm afraid. So some of the following is supposition on my part, based on my discussions with other Comair pilots and our MEC. Bear with me, I actually answer your question somewhere near the bottom.

My personal experience is similar to captainv's. When I discuss this with people at work, they generally agree at the end of the discussion that it wouldn't hurt to have you guys on here in the limited numbers we could expect, and still have you keep your seniority number (or maybe they're just humoring me?). In particular, new hires pretty much agree across the board. In fact, even Capt Lawson, when we discussed it last Christmas Day, said that he felt a solution could be reached that would facilitate the hiring of your furloughees at Comair with retention of Delta seniority. He was just waiting for the Delta MEC to get back with him. Which of course never happened, nor is it likely to ever happen.

Some folks who have been here longer than I harbor resentment at what they perceive and/or remember as some negative treatment/comments from the Delta MEC during the acquisition of Comair by Delta Inc. I wasn't here then and I know that folks at Delta don't remember it that way, but for a lot of folks at Comair it's reality (as my old CO told me once - perception = reality). I personally see these issues as unrelated (hiring furloughees and all the other stuff), other folks don't.

Don't laugh at this next one. If you asked a good percentage of the pilots that I have spoken with about the issue of hiring your furloughees, they would say that there is no issue with it. They are welcome to hire on at Comair under the same conditions anyone else is, resignation of seniority. When I point out that it is unrealistic to expect someone to resign a Delta seniority number to work at Comair, they generally shrug and say, "why not, this is a good place to work right now?" They also feel that the Delta pilots are spreading a lie (Comair won't hire the Delta furloughees), when the truth is that any Delta furloughees could easily apply and be hired at Comair, no differently than any of the numerous other furloughed pilots we have recently hired. A lot of this reasoning has to do with a widespread belief that I have also heard espoused by a good percentage of Delta pilots. The Delta and Comair pilot groups are separate entities; the mainline and Comair companies are separate entities. Therefore, goes this line of thought, the Delta furloughees should be treated the same as any other furloughee applying for work at Comair. I also agree with this, but think that due to the current situation this should mean that any furloughee should be able to retain their parent airline seniority number. I personally think considering the circumstances and the 9/11 attacks that had such a major part in causing this industry downturn, that it would be the right thing to do. We could reinstitute our old policy at a later date.

Finally, the article from the DALPA magazine that was plastered on the walls of the Comair crew facility concerning this issue and touting all that the Delta ALPA members had done for Comair rankled a few folks because (1) it had that "nyah nyah nyah, you'll never work here" tone I referred to earlier, (2) they don't remember the past actions of the Delta ALPA folks in quite the same way as the author of the article, and (3) no one reacts well to threats or the perception that someone is trying to push them around.

So my read on the whole thing is (1) there is real sympathy for your furloughees here, (2) most Comair pilots like it at Comair, and some honestly don't see what the big deal is about resigning a Delta seniority number to work at Comair (no kidding), (3) a large chunk of the older pilots at Comair would rather eat glass than do anything that even remotely looks like they've caved in to pressure or threats from their old nemisis, the Delta MEC, and (4) [I like lists don't I?] a certain "circle the wagons" mentality has sprung up due to the perception that the Delta MEC and pilot group have levelled a threat against the Comair pilot group, even among folks who would have otherwise supported the Delta furloughees in this issue.

So I don't think that there is going to be much support for a petition (some would sign it, most would not), or any support for a recall of our MEC. It may come up as an issue in the next election, but that is of no help now.

This may seem wrong-headed to you, but look at it this way. Our MEC said (in his famous letter, and to me personally) that this isn't a dead issue and that he is just waiting for a call from the Delta MEC. Do you think that if you circulated a petition at Delta calling for continued negotiations with the Comair MEC on this issue, that many folks would sign it? I don't think so, though maybe I'm wrong. I think your pilot group would view it as giving in to extortion, just as some in the Comair pilot group would view a reversal by our MEC as giving in to threats.

Now I'm going to make a suggestion (and this is an honest one). Why doesn't your pilot group try and extract a promise (in writing) from Delta management, that due to the coercive nature of the current economy, they will circular file (discard) any letters of resignation receive from furloughed pilots between 9/11/01 and a future date to be established later? The Comair rule only says that the pilot applicant has to resign from their previous job, not that their previous company has to accept that resignation. This might not seem too up and up to some folks, but it's not as if the furloughees would be lying. It would just be a compassionate policy on the part of Delta. It wouldn't cost the company anything, since as it is now they have to eventually take back all the furloughees who don't send in letters of resignation (and who would?) And the Delta pilot group wouldn't have to promise any other pilot group anything to get it. I'm not sure what Delta would want, but you won't know until you ask.

Sorry, honestly wish I could say that I could ride in with the cavalry and make this whole deal right, but I'm just an old retired jarhead/probationary pilot who's too dumb to keep his yap shut. At least they can't take that away from me.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Skid,

We have already asked our mgt about your "circular file" suggestion. It wouldn't fly for legal reasons.

Secondly, I have no intention of requesting that my mec "negotiate" with the cmr mec. All we asked was that they NOT OBJECT to our hiring. How difficult could that be? In return, they wanted us (by lawson't own admission) to decimate our job protections, then negotiate with our mgt to get scope for you (after giving up ours!), and to neogtiate onelist for you. All to get you to not object to helping out a mere handful of unemployed pilots! No thank you. Our furloughees should not be used as bargaining chips.

Thirdly, any comments made during the acquisition from our side were equalled if not exceeded by comments from your about getting DOH and kicking guys out of their seats. You'll find that in the airline world, threats of losing seniority are taken pretty personally! The fact is, stupid comments from either side were wrong, and should not factor into political decisions.

Further, to those who suggest that the Delta pilots give up their seniority number to work for cmr...well, decorum prevents me from responding how I'd like, but let's just say that it is not too realistic to expect that to happen. If it did, I would be pretty concerned about that pilot's mental state.

The stance of your mec is petty, mean, short-sighted, and divisive. There needs to be consequences of such actions, and while I have enjoyed our discourse, I am angry at your entire pilot group for allowing such a decision to stand. Until it changes, they can stay at cmr. After all, didn't you indicate through the seniority resignation claim that many don't see a difference between the two careers?

I'll say it again: I don't want to harm innocent people. But if they quietly allow unemployed pilots to remain on the street because their mec still objects to their hiring, then they are no longer innocent. Their silence indicates approval.

Thanks for the response.

 

[skiddriver]

1) Yeah, I figured that you guys were smart enough to have tried that one already. Too bad it won't work.

2) Umm...that was a rhetorical question used as a literary device to explain why your petition idea wasn't going to work, not as a real suggestion.

3) I plead ignorance to the history involved, but agree wholeheartedly with your conclusion.

4) I never said it made sense.

5) I'm not to up to speed on how unions work yet, but my initial impression is it's not a participatory democracy. But anyway, I do like it here, and am unlikely to move on anywhere where I can sit reserve until I'm 60, which unfortunately isn't that far away. The guys you advocate punishing are the young ones who have no real power or say in the issue (that would be the 15% of our list who are non-voting apprentice members). The older guys already made their decision about applying for a job at Delta during the last hiring cycle.

6) I think it generally indicates apathy or resignation, but I don't feel that those are good excuses.

Hope things work out for you personally anyway.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

1) Yeah, I figured that you guys were smart enough to have tried that one already. Too bad it won't work.


Thanks, but I never claimed to be smart!



2) Umm...that was a rhetorical question used as a literary device to explain why your petition idea wasn't going to work, not as a real suggestion.

See? I told you!


5) The older guys already made their decision about applying for a job at Delta during the last hiring cycle.


My guess is that for a great many of them, and for various reasons, that decision had already been made for them. That is not meant to imply that none could get hired by Delta, it is simply meant to rebut the oft-repeated claim that none "ever wanted to fly for Delta." While that may be the case for some, I don't think it is the case for most. That leads to bitterness and jealousy, and gives rise to attitudes like the one displayed by your mec. Of course, that's just my opinion.



6) I think it generally indicates apathy or resignation, but I don't feel that those are good excuses.

I agree. However, those qualities, throughout history, allowed many injustices to take place. This is just another example, and if it is allowed to continue, I'm sorry, but I cannot view those who allow it as "innocent bystanders."


Hope things work out for you personally anyway.

Thank you for your good wishes. I honestly hope that things work out between our pilot groups. However, the actions of the rjdc and your mec, coupled with your pilot group's apathy toward both pitiful displays makes me very pessimistic for future cooperation between our groups.

Thank you for the civil discourse. It is pretty rare on these boards!