Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

RJDC Update - March 8 (part 1)

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
surplus1 said:


Well, candidly if something going on between our MEC's negatively affects young Comair pilots in the future, that's nothing new. The decisions of your MEC have been adversely affecting every Comair pilot for a long time.



Really? I see no evidence of this at all. Your pilots are flying bigger airplanes to more places making more money and growing faster than any time in your history. You are doing so with flying that we have (mistakenly) allowed you to have. If our mec's actions are adversly affecting you, then I hope that they do the same to me soon!

Let's face it. When you hired on to cmr 15 years ago, your expectation was to fly a brasilia from CVG to various podunk airports around Kentucky. Now you are flying 70 seat jets all over North America. At the same time, we are shrinking and being replaced by you in every hub we have. Sell your sob story somewhere else, because most of us aren't buying. Your career has not been harmed one bit, despite your constant allegations to the contrary.
 
FlyDeltasJets said:
Skid,

I think that you'll find that I said that C's post was "one of" the only signs I have seen.


-- Okay, I did reread that and I apologize for misstating your sentiments.

As for the rest of your post, I think that blame lies with your mec, not our pilots. After all, we are just doing as they ask.

-- This is more of what I was referring to. You object to a decison that I also disagree with. But then you make this passo/aggro "just doing what they ask" deal. You and I both know that YOU do what YOU want. You're trying to threaten the younger guys who have come on at Comair to get something YOU want. You can't threaten Capt Lawson because he isn't going to apply to Delta in this lifetime. I'm a new hire, but I'm too old to care much about anything other than seeing my wife and kids as often as I can. So you're trotting out this "you'll never work at Delta" stuff to...to...what? Abuse a bunch of non-voting Comair new hire apprentice union members who are just looking to get a decent start with the only viable corporation that will hire them right now? Maybe it satisfies some sense of frustration you feel, but have you thought about how your bullying tactics effects you? Being tough and being mean are two different things.

Thank you for your opinion, and thank you for making it known to your mec. If enough of your pilots do the same, perhaps they would abandon their divisive and petty stance.

-- I appreciate your thanks, and I thank you for caring about the furloughees from your company and from the other airlines who have people out of work. Change comes from within. Maybe you could put aside your anger for a minute and think instead how we can change things for the better for all of us.
 
Skid,

I respect your opinion, and I didn't mean to sound bullying. I did, however, mean to convey the message that the cmr mec's actions are despicable, and they shoud have consequences. I, for one, cannot continue as if it were just business as usual. I think that their stance was petty and mean, and only hurt a few innocent pilots who wanted nothing more than to continue to fly and support their families.

I abhor their decision, and feel strongly that our mec should do something in response. I do not, however, want to harm innocent people (unlike lawson). That is why I keep trying to encourage cmr pilots to make it known if the mec is not representing their wishes. If there were an outcry from the cmr ranks, we could assume that they don't agree with their mec. However, absent such an outcry, shouldn't we assume that most agree with their stance? And if so, don't we have the right to treat them in kind?

I want to believe you. I want to believe that most cmr pilots don't support the petty and small-minded decision of your mec. I only wish I saw more things to support such an assertion. Right now, however, excluding a few posts on a message board, I see no evidence of that at all. Therefore, it is all too easy to assume that their silence indicates consent.

If more of your pilots did as you did, we might not have been having this discussion. Hopefully those silent majority (?) will follow your lead. Maybe a petition is in order? If more people would have the courage to stand up and be heard, then it would be easier to avoid lumping them in with their representatives. Right now, however, I don't see how we have much choice.
 
Jesus Christ, enough already!

The RJDC's cause evaporated on September 11th. Look at United and American...the days of the mega-airline are over, folks. With the things that are happening to the Delta-ASA-Comair-SkyWest-Chataqua route structure, how can the RJDC still argue that we "small jet" guys are getting screwed?

(Hint: it's the former MD-88 F/O who's now working in, say, a furniture shop who's getting screwed!)
 
I have a hard time seeing their logic myself, Typhoon.

However, I think their case was over the day they filed it. 9/11 only made it more clear how ridiculous it is.
 
FlyDeltasJets said:
Skid,

I respect your opinion, and I didn't mean to sound bullying.


You know, I'm sure your didn't.

However, absent such an outcry, shouldn't we assume that most agree with their stance? And if so, don't we have the right to treat them in kind?

No, and no. Let me make this easier for you. Go explain this situation to your religious leader (priest, pastor, mullah, rabbi) and tell them you think that it's acceptable to injure someone you don't know, whose opinions you don't know, in retaliation for an injury they didn't cause. If you lived in my parish, I think Father John would give YOU something to think about.

Right now, however, excluding a few posts on a message board, I see no evidence of that at all. Therefore, it is all too easy to assume that their silence indicates consent.

Doing the wrong thing is always easier.

If more of your pilots did as you did, we might not have been having this discussion. Hopefully those silent majority (?) will follow your lead. Maybe a petition is in order? If more people would have the courage to stand up and be heard, then it would be easier to avoid lumping them in with their representatives. Right now, however, I don't see how we have much choice.

Our hands are dirty. We were presented with an opportunity to help some men and women who were in a moment of need. We failed as a group to meet this challenge. My church (Catholic) calls this a social sin. I don't care to hear about old hurts and justification. I want to know what is going to be done for these men and women who are in need? I think that all right thinking people should question this situation, and consider what they can do (besides pointing fingers and casting blame) to provide the assistance to our fellow pilots that they and their families might require.
 
Skid,

I don't want to hurt the innocent. That is why I am encouraging them to speak up and be heard. If they don't, then they are giving tacit approval to the actions of their reps.

If I know of a crime and do nothing to stop it, am I innocent? What would Father John say about that? 16 years of Catholic education makes me pretty sure of the answer!;)

I am frightened that the cmr mec represents the feelings of the majority of cmr pilots. If that is the case, I agree with lawson that we should not share a cockpit. If it is not the case, many of us would like to know it.

You asked me for ideas. I think a good start would be to circulate a petition to be given to both DAL and cmr mec's, indicating that the signers supported the hiring of furloughed Delta pilots at cmr. I think that this simple action would go a long way towards restoring some goodwill between the groups, and it might prompt lawson to rethink his selfish and reckless stance. If not, might I suggest that a recall would be in order.


P.S.
In the interest of full disclosure, I am one of the furloughed. However, right now I have no intention of accepting a cmr job if it were offered. Of course, times and situations could always change.
 
another voice

FlyDeltasJets,

Skid isn't alone, there are other Comair pilots who would welcome Delta furloughees with open arms. as for not seeing many of them here, i guess it depends on how hard you look. i've made several posts, usually in response to Gen. Lee. also, the delta pilot group dwarfs us by about 10-to-1, which sort of falls in line with the numbers i see on these boards.

as i've said to Gen. Lee, i respect your views and your opinions, but it irks me when i read that Delta pilots have no beef with most comair pilots, but yet they can't wait to blackball me from Delta without any regard to my own beliefs.

personally, i think we should hire Delta furloughees simply because it's the right thing to do. one of the big sticking points i find talking to other Comair pilots is letting them keep their seniority at Delta. we're hiring lots of furloughees from other places right now, (half the pilots in my class came from another airline) but they have to resign their numbers. most Comair pilots want something in return for showing special consideration to the Delta pilots, even moreso if we were to give preference to hiring Delta pilots over other carriers. i see their point, and after talking to me, they often see mine.

a good friend of mine (who taught me how to fly), is one of the many Delta furloughees. i would do anything in my power to get him a job here, if he wanted it. he has paid his dues and then some, while i have had an easy ride throughout my career. it's just not fair.

i'm new to the airline industry, so i don't know the history here. when i fly, i tell the captain how i see things, and i listen to his views. i've had passionate discussions with Delta captains in the jumpseat on my way to work. but despite the range of opinions out there, we all treat each other with respect in the real world.

of course i'd like to fly for the majors someday, but if that isn't in the cards, that's okay too. god only knows what the aviation landscape will look like when i have competitive numbers. as for those who would deny me that chance, Comair and Delta pilots alike, well, that's your choice and i'll just have to live with it.

i come to this board to try to better understand the issues, but i take everything i read with a grain of salt. none of us know all the facts, but we've all got our own opinions. no matter which side you stand on, methinks the truth lies somewhere in the middle. and as for all comair pilots being of one mind on this, it's not true. I for one can see valid points on both sides....

Captainv
 
FlyDeltasJets said:
Skid,

16 years of Catholic education makes me pretty sure of the answer!;)


Props homey! (My daughter says I'm too old to say that). At least you know where I'm coming from.

In the interest of full disclosure, I am one of the furloughed.

I picked up on that from one of your earlier posts. I hope that you and your family aren't suffering and that you get back to work, at Delta, or wherevever you choose, soon. I'm going to keep speaking out on this issue at work, but unfortunately, I think that both the Delta and Comair MEC's have moved on, leaving the charred wreckage of what could have been a workable idea behind them. We're in the "recriminations and revenge" stage now.
 
Last edited:
Captain V,

I'll make a couple of points in response to your post.

#1. Yes, hiring furloughed pilots IS the right thing to do. It is just a shame that your mec has chosen to do the wrong thing.

#2. Because this began primarily as an interview board, and the Delta pilots have no need of job searh help, I disagree with your assessment that Delta pilots outnumber cmr pilots on this board. I think it is quite the opposite, in fact. For many months, I have been the only regular Delta pilot on these boards. Only recently have a few reenforcements arrived! Even though your numbers are greater, most of the posts have actually been in support of the mec's decision. That upsets me greatly, although I do thank you for speaking out. Perhaps if more people did so, your mec might listen.

#3. We offered to pursue preferential hiring for cmr pilots in exchange for your mec dropping their objections to our hiring. This was not enough for your mec. According to their own admission, they wanted us to a) decimate our job protections (scope), b) then in turn get scope for them! and c) pursue onelist. They were also uset that we wouldn't pursue a 100% preferencial hiring scheme, even though we were not asking them to pursue one. Now I would be happy to pursue onelist, even though I think mgt would be insane to ever agree, and therefore don't think it is possible. However, I REFUSE to give up my scope clause. It is the most important job protection that we have, and waaayyy too high a price to pay just to get your mec to NOT OBJECT to a few Delta pilots at cmr. That's all we want. We don't need any work, any effort, any negotiating capital spent. We just want a simple statment saying that the cmr pilots support the hiring of Delta furloughees. lawson (again, by his own admission) could not even do that. Shameful. And it is being done in your names, and very few of you have done anything about it. Your pilots should not expect us to be forgiving when their silence indicates tacit approval of the actions being taken on their behalf. If your pilots are against this policy, than do something to stop it, for it is naive to think that there will not be consequences to such a petty and devisive action.

If there are ramifications, and you are looking for someone to blame, you can start with your own mec. If you are looking for ways to stop your mec from taking actions that are not representative of thier membership's wishes, please see my post below.

Thank you for speaking out. You can do something to change it.
 
Skid,

Thank you for the kind words. It is just a shame that you have accepted that your mec is not acting to fairly represent the wishes of your pilot group (as you have indicated to me). If that many people disagree with them, then a petition and a recall process is in order. Absent any such effort, don't you agree that your group is giving tacit approval to your mec's pitiful actions?

It is not too late. Even though the mec's have moved on, that does not mean your pilot group has to. If they are not representing the views of the majority, they should be removed. Or perhaps you are misreading your group, and their stance is the will of the majority? Right now, it is easy to conclude the latter.
 
FDJ,

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I have a finger on the pulse of the Comair pilot group, because frankly, I don't absolutely know how they feel about the Delta furloughees as a whole. I'm too small a fish here I'm afraid. So some of the following is supposition on my part, based on my discussions with other Comair pilots and our MEC. Bear with me, I actually answer your question somewhere near the bottom.

My personal experience is similar to captainv's. When I discuss this with people at work, they generally agree at the end of the discussion that it wouldn't hurt to have you guys on here in the limited numbers we could expect, and still have you keep your seniority number (or maybe they're just humoring me?). In particular, new hires pretty much agree across the board. In fact, even Capt Lawson, when we discussed it last Christmas Day, said that he felt a solution could be reached that would facilitate the hiring of your furloughees at Comair with retention of Delta seniority. He was just waiting for the Delta MEC to get back with him. Which of course never happened, nor is it likely to ever happen.

Some folks who have been here longer than I harbor resentment at what they perceive and/or remember as some negative treatment/comments from the Delta MEC during the acquisition of Comair by Delta Inc. I wasn't here then and I know that folks at Delta don't remember it that way, but for a lot of folks at Comair it's reality (as my old CO told me once - perception = reality). I personally see these issues as unrelated (hiring furloughees and all the other stuff), other folks don't.

Don't laugh at this next one. If you asked a good percentage of the pilots that I have spoken with about the issue of hiring your furloughees, they would say that there is no issue with it. They are welcome to hire on at Comair under the same conditions anyone else is, resignation of seniority. When I point out that it is unrealistic to expect someone to resign a Delta seniority number to work at Comair, they generally shrug and say, "why not, this is a good place to work right now?" They also feel that the Delta pilots are spreading a lie (Comair won't hire the Delta furloughees), when the truth is that any Delta furloughees could easily apply and be hired at Comair, no differently than any of the numerous other furloughed pilots we have recently hired. A lot of this reasoning has to do with a widespread belief that I have also heard espoused by a good percentage of Delta pilots. The Delta and Comair pilot groups are separate entities; the mainline and Comair companies are separate entities. Therefore, goes this line of thought, the Delta furloughees should be treated the same as any other furloughee applying for work at Comair. I also agree with this, but think that due to the current situation this should mean that any furloughee should be able to retain their parent airline seniority number. I personally think considering the circumstances and the 9/11 attacks that had such a major part in causing this industry downturn, that it would be the right thing to do. We could reinstitute our old policy at a later date.

Finally, the article from the DALPA magazine that was plastered on the walls of the Comair crew facility concerning this issue and touting all that the Delta ALPA members had done for Comair rankled a few folks because (1) it had that "nyah nyah nyah, you'll never work here" tone I referred to earlier, (2) they don't remember the past actions of the Delta ALPA folks in quite the same way as the author of the article, and (3) no one reacts well to threats or the perception that someone is trying to push them around.

So my read on the whole thing is (1) there is real sympathy for your furloughees here, (2) most Comair pilots like it at Comair, and some honestly don't see what the big deal is about resigning a Delta seniority number to work at Comair (no kidding), (3) a large chunk of the older pilots at Comair would rather eat glass than do anything that even remotely looks like they've caved in to pressure or threats from their old nemisis, the Delta MEC, and (4) [I like lists don't I?] a certain "circle the wagons" mentality has sprung up due to the perception that the Delta MEC and pilot group have levelled a threat against the Comair pilot group, even among folks who would have otherwise supported the Delta furloughees in this issue.

So I don't think that there is going to be much support for a petition (some would sign it, most would not), or any support for a recall of our MEC. It may come up as an issue in the next election, but that is of no help now.

This may seem wrong-headed to you, but look at it this way. Our MEC said (in his famous letter, and to me personally) that this isn't a dead issue and that he is just waiting for a call from the Delta MEC. Do you think that if you circulated a petition at Delta calling for continued negotiations with the Comair MEC on this issue, that many folks would sign it? I don't think so, though maybe I'm wrong. I think your pilot group would view it as giving in to extortion, just as some in the Comair pilot group would view a reversal by our MEC as giving in to threats.

Now I'm going to make a suggestion (and this is an honest one). Why doesn't your pilot group try and extract a promise (in writing) from Delta management, that due to the coercive nature of the current economy, they will circular file (discard) any letters of resignation receive from furloughed pilots between 9/11/01 and a future date to be established later? The Comair rule only says that the pilot applicant has to resign from their previous job, not that their previous company has to accept that resignation. This might not seem too up and up to some folks, but it's not as if the furloughees would be lying. It would just be a compassionate policy on the part of Delta. It wouldn't cost the company anything, since as it is now they have to eventually take back all the furloughees who don't send in letters of resignation (and who would?) And the Delta pilot group wouldn't have to promise any other pilot group anything to get it. I'm not sure what Delta would want, but you won't know until you ask.

Sorry, honestly wish I could say that I could ride in with the cavalry and make this whole deal right, but I'm just an old retired jarhead/probationary pilot who's too dumb to keep his yap shut. At least they can't take that away from me. ;)
 
Last edited:
Skid,

We have already asked our mgt about your "circular file" suggestion. It wouldn't fly for legal reasons.

Secondly, I have no intention of requesting that my mec "negotiate" with the cmr mec. All we asked was that they NOT OBJECT to our hiring. How difficult could that be? In return, they wanted us (by lawson't own admission) to decimate our job protections, then negotiate with our mgt to get scope for you (after giving up ours!), and to neogtiate onelist for you. All to get you to not object to helping out a mere handful of unemployed pilots! No thank you. Our furloughees should not be used as bargaining chips.

Thirdly, any comments made during the acquisition from our side were equalled if not exceeded by comments from your about getting DOH and kicking guys out of their seats. You'll find that in the airline world, threats of losing seniority are taken pretty personally! The fact is, stupid comments from either side were wrong, and should not factor into political decisions.

Further, to those who suggest that the Delta pilots give up their seniority number to work for cmr...well, decorum prevents me from responding how I'd like, but let's just say that it is not too realistic to expect that to happen. If it did, I would be pretty concerned about that pilot's mental state.

The stance of your mec is petty, mean, short-sighted, and divisive. There needs to be consequences of such actions, and while I have enjoyed our discourse, I am angry at your entire pilot group for allowing such a decision to stand. Until it changes, they can stay at cmr. After all, didn't you indicate through the seniority resignation claim that many don't see a difference between the two careers?

I'll say it again: I don't want to harm innocent people. But if they quietly allow unemployed pilots to remain on the street because their mec still objects to their hiring, then they are no longer innocent. Their silence indicates approval.

Thanks for the response.
 
1) Yeah, I figured that you guys were smart enough to have tried that one already. Too bad it won't work.

2) Umm...that was a rhetorical question used as a literary device to explain why your petition idea wasn't going to work, not as a real suggestion.

3) I plead ignorance to the history involved, but agree wholeheartedly with your conclusion.

4) I never said it made sense.

5) I'm not to up to speed on how unions work yet, but my initial impression is it's not a participatory democracy. But anyway, I do like it here, and am unlikely to move on anywhere where I can sit reserve until I'm 60, which unfortunately isn't that far away. The guys you advocate punishing are the young ones who have no real power or say in the issue (that would be the 15% of our list who are non-voting apprentice members). The older guys already made their decision about applying for a job at Delta during the last hiring cycle.

6) I think it generally indicates apathy or resignation, but I don't feel that those are good excuses.

Hope things work out for you personally anyway.
 
skiddriver said:
1) Yeah, I figured that you guys were smart enough to have tried that one already. Too bad it won't work.


Thanks, but I never claimed to be smart!



2) Umm...that was a rhetorical question used as a literary device to explain why your petition idea wasn't going to work, not as a real suggestion.


See? I told you!


5) The older guys already made their decision about applying for a job at Delta during the last hiring cycle.



My guess is that for a great many of them, and for various reasons, that decision had already been made for them. That is not meant to imply that none could get hired by Delta, it is simply meant to rebut the oft-repeated claim that none "ever wanted to fly for Delta." While that may be the case for some, I don't think it is the case for most. That leads to bitterness and jealousy, and gives rise to attitudes like the one displayed by your mec. Of course, that's just my opinion.



6) I think it generally indicates apathy or resignation, but I don't feel that those are good excuses.


I agree. However, those qualities, throughout history, allowed many injustices to take place. This is just another example, and if it is allowed to continue, I'm sorry, but I cannot view those who allow it as "innocent bystanders."


Hope things work out for you personally anyway.


Thank you for your good wishes. I honestly hope that things work out between our pilot groups. However, the actions of the rjdc and your mec, coupled with your pilot group's apathy toward both pitiful displays makes me very pessimistic for future cooperation between our groups.

Thank you for the civil discourse. It is pretty rare on these boards!
 
Last edited:

Latest resources

Back
Top