RJDC Update - March 8 (part 1)

[General Lee]

Surplus1,

In a good economy without war worries, why wouldn't you want to fly the big iron at an airline like Delta? Sure, I like the RJ and can understand some people wanting to stay at a certain airline because it gives them weekends off etc, but you wouldn't want to have the chance to fly big? Sure, there are probably guys there that flew C141's or C5's across every ocean, but wouldn't you like to fly a 767 into Bermuda? I am not putting down Comair or ASA, but I am asking just you that question. I will accept any answer you provide.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[46Driver]

From my perspective, I could care less what airliner I fly - an ILS is an ILS is an ILS.... if I want fun, I will go fly a helicopter. The whole issue is quality of life - of which money is less important than schedule - especially if you already have a military retirement.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus1,

In a good economy without war worries, why wouldn't you want to fly the big iron at an airline like Delta? Sure, I like the RJ and can understand some people wanting to stay at a certain airline because it gives them weekends off etc, but you wouldn't want to have the chance to fly big? Sure, there are probably guys there that flew C141's or C5's across every ocean, but wouldn't you like to fly a 767 into Bermuda? I am not putting down Comair or ASA, but I am asking just you that question. I will accept any answer you provide.

Bye Bye--General Lee

General,

I'm probably not a good example or the right person to ask that particular question. If you ask one of our young guys you'd probably get a different answer. I'm numbered among the "mature". Comair will be my last airline, but it was not my first. I've already flown "big"-- 4-engines, international, airline (not military), captain, much before I even heard of Comair. And yes, I've landed in Bermuda more than once. Personally, I prefer a 72-hour in Geneva, the good beer in Bavaria, the women in Keflavick and the Hotel Sofitel in London. I like the view of that big hill in Tanzania on a clear day, the brothels of Schipol's capital city, and the fun ride from Heliopolis to downtown Cairo. He!l I even have a pic on one of those old camels near the Great P., and trust me there's nothing quite like an LOA to do a turn or two on the Hajh (sp). The steaks are good in Buenos Aires, Rio this time of year (Carnival) is a blast, Caracas is boring, but the Club Med on Martinique is fun time and there's good food on St. Maarten (French side).

The 767 is not one of my favorite airplanes (never flew it), so there's no thirst there. Now offer me a 75 (never flew that either)and you might get my attention. That's the only Boeing that ever really turned me on. I kinda prefer airplanes that start with "DC" or L, but they don't make 'em any more.

Most young pilots that I know would love to fly the big aircraft (just as I did when I was younger) and make the big bucks. Nothing wrong with that. Some folks, like me, prefer international routes, other's like the domestic stuff. Still others are happy with the short haul light stuff.

Now let me ask you a question. Since you obviously like your 767 and your landings in Bermuda, why are you guys trying so hard to take away our little CL700? You have the "big iron" and now you want the small iron too? You already have the best but you're still not satisfied and so your trying to get the least as well.

This problem, debate or whatever you want to call it, doesn't have much to do with what kind of flying we might prefer. It's really about the right to work freely, without outside interference. Everyone (I think) wants that, whether we fly small airplanes or big airplanes. You want to protect your work and we want to protect our work. That means the job we have today, not the one we might want or get tomorrow.

Once you have enough seniority to keep your job, unless your airline goes out of business, that's a good deal. Doesn't matter what you're flying. You're worried about your furloughees, and you should be. Yeah, I've been furloughed too, so I do know something about it and its not nice. I clue you in -- it's a lot worse when your whole airline collapses around you or somebody takes it away. The people you have out on the street have all been there about 3 years or less. That's nothing. Feel lucky that you don't happen to work at AAA or that your airline wasn't TWA and now you're furloughed after 18 years or you're on the bottom of the SkyNazi's list and on the street.

This is a tough business and most of you young people that have come up in the 90's are spoiled rotten. You really have little idea of how interesting the ride can get.

We have a young company that's only 25 years old. Many of us built it from nothing only to have it taken away by your Company. It wasn't much and it isn't much now, but it WAS ours and we didn't have to deal with your constantly changing Scope clause. Now you wan't our flying too? Well, we may not have any 767's and we never will, but you need to understand that our little RJs are the only thing we do have. Until we get something better, we aren't about to let you cap them wherever you want, give them away or let them be taken without one he!l of a quarrel. It's not personal, it's just human nature and business. We're both fighting to keep what we have .... our jobs.

What we have is NOT as good as what you have and we know that. But, once again, it's all that we have. We aren't trying to take what you have, we're just trying to keep what we have. Instead of giving it up and hoping that we can get what you have or whining over being hired by you (or someone else), we need to protect it, just in case we don't get anything else. If the 767 comes along in our future careers at another airline that's great. Meanwhile, we need to protect the CL700, which is our 747.

I hope that makes some sense to you. It's late and I'm rambling.

Take care

 

[csmith]

From Surplus:

Says whom, you? Is that Gospel or just your point of view?

It's Gospel bro. The Delta PWA. Your denial of it not mean it is not a fact. It is a fact.

What is predatory is your repeated effort to prevent us from negotiating for them or from receiving them and from increasing their number as we and the Company see fit.

If you would carefully study the contract language which the Delta pilots have agreed to with our employer, there is nothing limiting the number of Rjs which Delta and its subsidiaries may operate. The limitation is on what number of those may be flown by other than Delta pilots. Huge difference, and a FACT which certain sue happy groups conveniently spin.

Factually incorrect! See, I'm learning. Yes, there is something in your PWA that prevents Comair and ASA from operating aircraft larger than 70-seats. That however, has nothing to do with the lawsuit. You know that and I know that you know that. The lawsuit is about the union's decision to allow you to use our work as bargaining chips in your negotiations. In other words, its failure to honor its DFR. You don't like that because you think that it is your God-given right to control our futures against our will and you are able to manipulate the "union" with your money. You are wrong. That is where it will prevail, IMO.

Again, your denial of fact does not make it so. My acceptance of fact is based on the written word , in a signed contract between two parties. I merely responded with a rebuttal to your choice of words in a response. The lawsuit has everything to do with this topic. This is my opinion. When the original content of the lawsuit includes wording calling for the merger of lists, the writing was put on the wall. Indeed the true intent of the lawsuit is not very difficult to ascertain with a little logic and insight. Yes the fact that some pilots are limited to 70 seat jets is a big reason for their participation in the lawsuit. DFR is merely the means to justify the ends. No typo.

Stop trying to limit what we do or how many we fly.

Not doing it at all. Just limiting how many can be flown by non-Delta pilots. Big difference. It is Delta who decides how many Comair, ASA, Eagle, or ACA, or Chautauqua will fly. The wording is very important.

I notice you object whenever you feel that something, whatever you imagine on any given day, is coming at your expense. Yet, at the same time you have no reservations whatever of doing what you want to do, even if it comes at someone else's expense. You are comfortable with a double standard as long as it favors your interests, but unhappy when it does not.

The double standard, as you call it, it the foundation by which your airline was built. A remora cannot dictate where the shark swims. It takes what it is given. Like it or not, the FACT is that must operate aircraft within the confines of the Delta PWA. As such, they must set up codeshares within the confines of the Delta PWA. This is your area. Your area falls into the territory of the Delta PWA. This territory is controlled by the Delta pilots and Delta within the RLA act under the Delta PWA. You work for Comair, or ASA. Both are viable entities, on paper and in reality. Who pulls strings is an emotional tug by the uninformed. It is not relevant. A judge will look right through it. It does not chap my backside when a group who thinks they were wronged attempts a right. It does chap my backside when their actions are an attempt to gain something at the expense of others, contrary to the BL&Constitution, ans something which could tear down the very foundation of our union--when it is needed most

As for AA's pilots "attempting to bring all brand flying in house", I guess maybe they are -- by taking it from the Eagle pilots and giving it to themselves.

Ah, but did it include the Eagle pilots joining the list at some point in the future? Methinks, your word, it did. Could it be that some just won't be happy with anything other than a straight DOH integration. I don't see where the Eagle pilots have a whole lot of leverage or say in the matter. For that matter, neither do the pilots of Comair and ASA. Onelist was the goal, right? At least, it was the original goal, or perhaps just a sham in order to get some hands on yet a bigger prize?!?

To date, we have made no attempt to take from you. However, as I told your compadre the General, if you elect to start a bidding war for our flying, we will act further to defend it. That action will probably include a bidding war for your flying. IMO, that is a lose/lose situation.

More distortion. I am not interested in a bidding war. You will get enough of that from the likes of ACA, Chautauqua, Eagle, etc. However, hypothetically speaking, if we were able to secure rates for <71 seat flying, you still do not have the ability to indulge in negotiation with Delta for >70 seat flying, only Comair. Furthermore, Delta cannot allow non-Delta seniority list pilots--with exceptions--to operate >70 seat equipment without a full blown merger. It is THEIR choice. Keep your facts straight. You are smarter than that.

You are chagrined because you never expected that those you perceive as riff-raff like us, would have the nerve to challenge your behavior. That's what chaps your backside.

Worth a repost. It shows that ego, indeed, actually will drive some people's actions despite the consequences. As predicted, I got the response I expected--albeit shielded in different words. Further ego:

As an after thought, in my dream world, I'd kind of like to see a merger between Delta and American. Try as I may, I can't think of two more compatible pilot groups. It would be fun to watch you duke it out over who will staple what, where. A guy could make a small fortune selling tickets to that event! That would be poetic justice for both of you. Alas, my dreams hardly ever come true.

Although claiming "no hard feelings", you would actually enjoy such a scenario. Pretty smug of you. Much respect lost here, and much credibility.

There is more, oh so much more, but I will leave it at that. We will soon be going into the same old tired argument. I notice that no decision has been rendered as of yet. I guess it is not a slam dunk that ALPA's motion to dismiss is without merit. Time can't be on the RJDCs side with respect to a delayed decision.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Surplus,

Read your lawsuit again. It is not we who are trying to take your airplanes, it is you who are trying to take ours. If you were to win, what would stop mgt from shifting all of our airplanes to the lowest bidder?

Also, the only reason that cmr is not hiring DAL pilots is that they are afraid that "the cmr guys would burn the house down." That is a direct quote from our VP of flight ops. All we needed from you was assurances that your pilot group would not object. Your mec would not even do that. And you agree with that?

I have enjoyed our conversations. But you should be ashamed of yourself for supporting that decision. It was petty and small-minded, and it would have cost you nothing but the price of a stamp. Instead, your group tried to use our furloughees as hostages in an attempt to destroy our job protections.

You can answer if you want, but I doubt that you can defend your position to my satisfaction. Your mec has shown their true colors, and absent any outcry from your pilot group, I have to assume that they agree with the actions of their leadership. As such, I hope that the cmr mec gets their wish. Delta pilots shouldn't be sharing a cockpit with cmr pilots. Of course, the same will be true when we start hiring again. Without tangible evidence that the cmr pilot group disagrees with their mec in this matter, I will continue to propose that we never hire another cmr pilot. I feel confident that your mec's actions will hurt their own pilot group far more than they hurt the mere handful of our pilots who would have gone to cmr.

 

[skydiverdriver]

So, the Delta MEC chairman claims that the Comair MEC chairman said that Comair pilots don't want to work for Delta. He also said that he will try to make sure Comair pilots don't get jobs with Delta. Does this seem a bit inconsistant? Just how many resume's does he expect Delta will get from people who don't want the job?

 

[sf3boy]

This RJDC crap is wearing thin. I love how they plant their "info" around the web boards, much akin to telemarketers. If they do win that lawsuit and DAL management gets to give all the cool planes to the lowest bidder, I look for J.O. at Mesa and Foley at Mesaba, sorry, I meant Big Sky to be the first to offer up 757 FO positions at $17.50/hr. (of course their will be no cancellation pay and the health insurance will be on your own). So thanks, RJDC, for ruining the profession of flying planes.

 

[trigeek]

Surplus,
You said,

When you start hiring again, I suspect that Delta management will decide whom it wants to interview much as it did in the past. If ASA pilots apply, I wish them the best. If Comair pilots apply, I wish them the best also. If Delta management decides to give the Delta MEC control over its hiring, and the Delta MEC decides to black ball Comair pilots, then I suspect those who wish to leave will find employment elsewhere. Unless of course Delta becomes the only major airline in existence.

You humor me. You and I both know the extremes you reach for to illustrate your point. You must type much faster than I.

As far as the statement that "no Comair pilot wants to fly for Delta" that was reported in the Widget. I'm know you disagree with the validity of the statement but it was in print. Whether it was acutaully said or not is really not important. What is important is everything going on between our MECs may adversely effect a young Comair pilot's potential employment with Delta. No our MEC does not control the Delta Pilot hiring process. However, Delta pilots are VERY involved in the hiring process of new Delta pilots as I'm sure is the case in most places. Bad blood between our groups can adversley effect a candidates outcome. It is human nature.

For what it is worth, I don't know the exact numbers but there are many former Comair and ASA pilots on the mainline. And while we may not be the only airline out there, I still think it is a pretty d@mn good one to fly for...warts and all.

 

[skiddriver]

PS. I urge ALL parties on both sides of this issue...debate it on the forums and let the courts do their thing. Jumpseats and other professional courtesies should not be used as weapons of revenge. This is a polarizing issue-sometimes one must agree to disagree. [/B]

I'll just say that as a Comair pilot who commutes to work and home on Delta mainline a couple of times a week, that the Delta pilots and cabin crew have been unfailingly gracious and welcoming, even as Delta was closing the New Orleans F/A base and displacing those fine people to Cincy, Atlanta and New York.

On the last two flights I was on, I had to jumpseat once (during Mardi Gras) with a former AF and Navy crew, and on the second flight, found two old USMC friends (one former roomate of a guy in my first squadron, and a squadron mate from Desert Storm) as the Capt and FO. I sat in the back on the second flight and regretted not filling out the jumpseat form.

Does the antagonism between some of the folks in each pilot group come up ever? Yep, then we shake hands and talk about tearing up Magsaysay St. and other points out west.

Life's too short to spend it p*ssed off. Get out an live a little.

 

[701EV]

Skiddriver

You are sooooooooooo right, life is to short

 

[surplus1]

Surplus,

Read your lawsuit again. It is not we who are trying to take your airplanes, it is you who are trying to take ours. If you were to win, what would stop mgt from shifting all of our airplanes to the lowest bidder?

FDJ,

It's not likely that you and I are going to agree on the litigation. You see the outcome one way and I see it another. We've explored our differences at length with no change on either side.

If we should win, then what happens will depend on what we win and what we subsequently decide to do about it. I can't predict the future.

What I personally would hope for is the return of that part of your Scope clause that directly affects Comair and ASA to what it was in your 1996 PWA coupled with your being estopped from changing that without mutual agreement. The remainder of your Scope would remain as is or as subsequently modified by you.

I would then hope that we could sit down together and agree as to where the dividing lines should be drawn in the mutual interests of our Company and each other, and how to provide access to the flying by both parties in the event of future reductions in force affecting either party.

I do not want any of your traditional equipment to be transferred to Comair without your consent and I know and believe that the principals in this litigation share my views and do not want that either. I also do not want a number on your list and neither do they. While I acknowledge that some of our pilots may, I see that as a personal choice and it is not a part of the litigation nor its potential outcome.

The remainder of what I would want has only to do with the ALPA and not with Delta specifically. I believe the desired changes would improve the Association's ability to represent all of its members equitably notwithstanding the diversity among pilot groups. That ability certainly does not exist today and, in my view, is necessary if the union is to survive in peace. That is all.

Also, the only reason that cmr is not hiring DAL pilots is that they are afraid that "the cmr guys would burn the house down." That is a direct quote from our VP of flight ops. All we needed from you was assurances that your pilot group would not object. Your mec would not even do that. And you agree with that?

I do not doubt that your VP of Flt. Ops. may have said that to you or to someone else. I would not even doubt that our VP of Flt. Ops. might have told him that as a convenient c-y-a for the position of Comair's management on the retention of seniority issue, which is the key to the whole thing. VPs say a lot of things from time to time. Some are factual and others are not, but you knew that.

I have enjoyed our conversations. But you should be ashamed of yourself for supporting that decision. It was petty and small-minded, and it would have cost you nothing but the price of a stamp. Instead, your group tried to use our furloughees as hostages in an attempt to destroy our job protections.

I have enjoyed our conversations as well and hope to continue to do so. I must tell you however, that I am not at all ashamed of supporting that decision and do not feel a particular need to defend it or justify it. In my tenure at Comair I have experienced many decisions of the Delta MEC that were, are, and will remain no less palatable to me than this decision of the Comair MEC is to you. Although I know and have known many Delta pilots, not a single one of them has ever apologized to me or anyone else at Comair that I am aware of, for any of those decisions of your MEC. Neither has anyone on your MEC or in your pilot group ever expressed regret for your MEC's decisions.

As you yourself point out, the CMR MEC decision possibly affects only a handful of Delta pilots who may have elected to apply at Comair. In contrast, certain decisions of the Delta MEC have adversely affected every Comair pilot and will continue to do so for the forseable future. That doesn't seem to bother you or your peers in the least. Why do you then expect that this decision which potentially affects but a handful of Delta pilots, shoud bother me or my peers?

Your mec has shown their true colors, and absent any outcry from your pilot group, I have to assume that they agree with the actions of their leadership.

Your MEC has been showing its true colors towards the Comair pilot group for no less than ten consecutive years of which I have personal knowledge. Absent not only an outcry but not as much as a single objection from your pilot group, I too must assume that they agree with their leadership. Literally hundreds have so stated in the ALPA forums past and present, this forum, other forums, the Widget, Roar from 44, The old NY LEC newsletter, the BOS news letter and associated other official publications of your MEC, and etc.

Your people have called us every name in the book both privately and in public forums, questioned our backgrounds, accused us of incompetence, demeaned our professional qualifications and rediculed our imagined lack of education for nearly a decade, consistently. At one point some of your people were even calling us scabs on the radio, not once or twice but with regularity, because someone in your management and my management decided to paint our airplanes in your livery; an event that we didn't like any more than you did.

There is much more that I could say about the attitudes, remarks and actions of your MEC members, Officers and general membership towards Comair pilots, but why bother. Talk about "petty". My friend you know not of what you speak.

Without tangible evidence that the DAL pilot group disagrees with their MEC in those matters that I have mentioned, I will continue to support that my MEC should do nothing extraordinary to facilitate the hiring by Comair of Delta pilots that retain their Delta seniority. If any of you choose to resign your Delta seniority and come here as Comair pilots, then you will be welcome.

In the event our Company decides to change its hiring policies and allow Delta pilots to come here with their Delta seniority retained, I assure you that they will be accepted, treated with professional respect, and assisted in every way possible by Comair line pilots, instructors and staff. You may not know it, but that's our way of doing things. We most certainly will not "burn our house down" over that, contrary to the opinion/allegation of you VP Flt. Ops. Don't believe everything you hear, FDJ. Do not form opinions of what you think my group might do, based upon what your group might do. All birds do not have the same feathers.

We have not made nor are we making any threats towards individual Delta pilots or the Delta pilot group as a whole, despite our differences. Your group both has and is. You live in a glass palace, FDJ. Better keep your stones in your pocket.

Your furloughees are not victims of a Comair MEC decision. They are pawns being used in furtherance of your own MEC's political agenda which unfortunately has little to do with securing work for them, least of all at Comair. Call a spade a spade.

I feel confident that your mec's actions will hurt their own pilot group far more than they hurt the mere handful of our pilots who would have gone to cmr.

You refer to us a "petty and small-minded" and then you make a thinly vieled threat like that? Who was it again that's showing their "true colors". Give me a break, FDJ, I wasn't born yesterday.

 

[Clownpilot]

Please please

Surplus will gladly argue this topic until the sun burns out on its own. I can't take his pontification any longer. It's unending.

He will gleefully post 7 part, 9 page, self serving diatribes to anyone who will engage him and will remain steadfast in his opinions, unwaving, until he is dead.

I am begging this board to take out a gun, put it to the head of this thread, and pull the trigger. Why this topic is still alive is beyond me.

We can only stand so much.
Have mercy.

 

[skydiverdriver]

As far as the statement that "no Comair pilot wants to fly for Delta" that was reported in the Widget. I'm know you disagree with the validity of the statement but it was in print. Whether it was acutaully said or not is really not important.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, you are saying that it's okay for your leadership to lie to you (and everyone else) in print?

 

[C425Driver]

Surplus Wrote:

"Your mec has shown their true colors, and absent any outcry from your pilot group, I have to assume that they agree with the actions of their leadership. As such, I hope that the cmr mec gets their wish. Delta pilots shouldn't be sharing a cockpit with cmr pilots. Of course, the same will be true when we start hiring again. Without tangible evidence that the cmr pilot group disagrees with their mec in this matter, I will continue to propose that we never hire another cmr pilot. I feel confident that your mec's actions will hurt their own pilot group far more than they hurt the mere handful of our pilots who would have gone to cmr."


Surplus,

There are many of us who disagree with the actions of our mec in this case - we actually believe that our union should start acting like a union and helping each other without invoking alterior motives. Unfortunately, there seems to be a veil of secrecy and vagueness surrounding our mec. While we were informed that there would be a meeting between our mec's, we weren't informed of details of discussion ahead of time (just very broad subjects) or our mec's position on these points. Only after hearing details from the DAL side, did we finally hear our mec's side of the story.

If I thought that voicing my opinion to my mec would help even in the slightest bit, I would do so. But for now, I've resigned to the fact that I will never have a shot at employment at DAL, since I will be forever villified for the uniform that I wear regardless of my stance on my mec's actions and the rjdc lawsuit.

C425Driver

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

FDJ,

What I personally would hope for is the return of that part of your Scope clause that directly affects Comair and ASA to what it was in your 1996 PWA coupled with your being estopped from changing that without mutual agreement. The remainder of your Scope would remain as is or as subsequently modified by you.


Ironically, that is not at all what you asked for in your suit. Sorry, but I am not ready to trust your good intentions simply because you ask me to. I am especially wary of someone's motives when they are suing our union for $12,000,000 for EACH cmr pilot, a total of about $15,000,000,000.



I would then hope that we could sit down together and agree as to where the dividing lines should be drawn in the mutual interests of our Company and each other, and how to provide access to the flying by both parties in the event of future reductions in force affecting either party.



Sorry, I prefer instead to leave the union and keep our scope clause intact. Once we do so, no more DFR, and we'll keep our scope. You will have bankrupted the union, so us staying or leaving is kind of a moot point.



I do not want any of your traditional equipment to be transferred to Comair without your consent and I know and believe that the principals in this litigation share my views and do not want that either.


Oh, I'm sorry. I was reading the CONTENT of your lawsuit where it asks a judge to do exactly that. But I am supposed to feel better because you say that you don't want it. Guess what? Once you are done killing our scope, it won't much matter what either of us want, as mgt will have the ability to give all our airplanes to the lowest bidder. That is, unless we leave the union.




I do not doubt that your VP of Flt. Ops. may have said that to you or to someone else. I would not even doubt that our VP of Flt. Ops. might have told him that as a convenient c-y-a for the position of Comair's management on the retention of seniority issue, which is the key to the whole thing. VPs say a lot of things from time to time. Some are factual and others are not, but you knew that.





Wait a minute. You have been telling us for years that cmr mgt is a puppet for DAL mgt. Now you are telling me that Delta can't control CMR mgt. Which is it. You know as well as I do that if Leo told your mgt to hire Delta pilots, it would be done tomorrow. They will not do so because your mec made a stink. Ironic that the ASA mec did not do so, and we now have furloughed Delta pilots there. Plus, I have read the letter from lawson. The facts are not in dispute, I accept his account. I just think that it is despicable.



As you yourself point out, the CMR MEC decision possibly affects only a handful of Delta pilots who may have elected to apply at Comair. In contrast, certain decisions of the Delta MEC have adversely affected every Comair pilot and will continue to do so for the forseable future. That doesn't seem to bother you or your peers in the least. Why do you then expect that this decision which potentially affects but a handful of Delta pilots, shoud bother me or my peers?





The actions of my mec all are done to foster the growth of high paying jobs and limit the outsourcing of our work to low wage carriers. While that might not benefit the small number of regional pilots who choose (or are forced) to make a career at the regional, it benefits the large majority who dream of moving on to the majors. Your mec's actions harm many and benefit none, and they were done purely out of spite.




Your MEC has been showing its true colors towards the Comair pilot group for no less than ten consecutive years of which I have personal knowledge. Absent not only an outcry but not as much as a single objection from your pilot group, I too must assume that they agree with their leadership. Literally hundreds have so stated in the ALPA forums past and present, this forum, other forums, the Widget, Roar from 44, The old NY LEC newsletter, the BOS news letter and associated other official publications of your MEC, and etc.

You better believe I support my leadership.



Your people have called us every name in the book both privately and in public forums, questioned our backgrounds, accused us of incompetence, demeaned our professional qualifications and rediculed our imagined lack of education for nearly a decade, consistently. At one point some of your people were even calling us scabs on the radio, not once or twice but with regularity, because someone in your management and my management decided to paint our airplanes in your livery; an event that we didn't like any more than you did.


I have no control over the actions of individual pilots. However, since I have been on these boards, FAR more insults have been directed at my group than any other. Get over it. I do.




There is much more that I could say about the attitudes, remarks and actions of your MEC members, Officers and general membership towards Comair pilots, but why bother. Talk about "petty". My friend you know not of what you speak.


I'll thank you not to tell me what I do or don't know.




Without tangible evidence that the DAL pilot group disagrees with their MEC in those matters that I have mentioned, I will continue to support that my MEC should do nothing extraordinary to facilitate the hiring by Comair of Delta pilots that retain their Delta seniority. If any of you choose to resign your Delta seniority and come here as Comair pilots, then you will be welcome.

That's just the point. You were never asked to do anything extraordinary. In fact, just the opposite. Your pilot group is currently acting AGAINST the hiring of our pilots. When we do the same, please don't be surprised.

P.S.
I wouldn't be so quick to welcome anyone who would resign a Delta seniority number for cmr. He would obviously be insane, and a danger to himself and his passengers.



In the event our Company decides to change its hiring policies and allow Delta pilots to come here with their Delta seniority retained, I assure you that they will be accepted, treated with professional respect, and assisted in every way possible by Comair line pilots, instructors and staff. You may not know it, but that's our way of doing things. We most certainly will not "burn our house down" over that, contrary to the opinion/allegation of you VP Flt. Ops. Don't believe everything you hear, FDJ. Do not form opinions of what you think my group might do, based upon what your group might do. All birds do not have the same feathers.

Then why not make a simple statement to that fact. As a matter of fact, you could send the above paragraph to your mec. It is exactly what they refuse to publically say, and exactly why our furloughees have not been hired. Even if it didn't do the trick, we would then know that our mgt is lying. Why is your mec afraid of making such a statement?




You refer to us a "petty and small-minded" and then you make a thinly vieled threat like that? Who was it again that's showing their "true colors". Give me a break, FDJ, I wasn't born yesterday.

If you thought that was a "thinly veiled threat," then I apologize. I did not mean to make it thinly veiled at all. I meant to make it very explicit. If your mec continues to object to the hiring of our furloughees, I certainly hope that our mec just as strongly objects to the hiring of your pilots. Quid pro Quo.

Your mec has made it clear that they do not want cmr pilots to share a cockpit with Delta pilots. I hope that they get their wish. Permanently.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Surplus Wrote:

"Your mec has shown their true colors, and absent any outcry from your pilot group, I have to assume that they agree with the actions of their leadership. As such, I hope that the cmr mec gets their wish. Delta pilots shouldn't be sharing a cockpit with cmr pilots. Of course, the same will be true when we start hiring again. Without tangible evidence that the cmr pilot group disagrees with their mec in this matter, I will continue to propose that we never hire another cmr pilot. I feel confident that your mec's actions will hurt their own pilot group far more than they hurt the mere handful of our pilots who would have gone to cmr."


Surplus,

There are many of us who disagree with the actions of our mec in this case - we actually believe that our union should start acting like a union and helping each other without invoking alterior motives. Unfortunately, there seems to be a veil of secrecy and vagueness surrounding our mec. While we were informed that there would be a meeting between our mec's, we weren't informed of details of discussion ahead of time (just very broad subjects) or our mec's position on these points. Only after hearing details from the DAL side, did we finally hear our mec's side of the story.

If I thought that voicing my opinion to my mec would help even in the slightest bit, I would do so. But for now, I've resigned to the fact that I will never have a shot at employment at DAL, since I will be forever villified for the uniform that I wear regardless of my stance on my mec's actions and the rjdc lawsuit.

C425Driver

C425,

You responded to Surplus, but it was I who wrote the quote. I feel for those pilots who don't agree with the actions of their representatives. However, the outcry has been pretty small. If your mec is not representing the interests of the majority of your pilots, I suggest a recall. Absent such a movement, isn't is logical to assume that your pilots support the actions of their representatives.

I harbor no ill will toward individual cmr pilots. However, your mec has made it clear that they do not want Delta pilots in cmr cockpits. Isn't is logical to assume that my mec, in response, might take the same stance?

I hope that it is worked out. I have a lot of friends at cmr, and I know a lot of great guys at Delta who came from there. I imagine that many (perhaps the majority) of your pilots disagree with the stance your mec is taking. However, I have no way of knowing that. There has been no outcry, no petitions, very few posts (except from those defending the action) on the national board, no recall effort, no tangible evidence at all that the mec is not accurately representing the interests of the cmr line pilot. Without such evidence, one can only assume that your opinion is that of only a small minority.

I commend you for your opinion and hope that this can be resolved. As it is, however, we must respect the wishes of your leadership. It is obvious that they do not want to see you sharing a cockpit with us. It's a shame.

 

[C425Driver]

FDJ Wrote:


"Ironically, that is not at all what you asked for in your suit. Sorry, but I am not ready to trust your good intentions simply because you ask me to. I am especially wary of someone's motives when they are suing our union for $12,000,000 for EACH cmr pilot, a total of about $15,000,000,000."


FDJ,

We were informed that only named plaintiffs can collect this money from the lawsuit (IF they win). That is why the rjdc was looking to add more plaintiffs to the lawsuit last year - so they could intimidate ALPA with the threat of a bigger payout. As of right now, there are only 3 plaintiffs. If the judge allows it, there will be another 300 plaintiffs added. The other 1200-1300 of us decided not to be part of their lawsuit.

C425Driver

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

C425,

If you are correct, that would certainly make me feel better. I do not doubt your word, but I wonder from where you got that information?

The relief section of the suit asks for $12,000,000 for every cmr pilot. I would be very happy to hear that this is not allowed.

Thanks for the info, and I commend you for staying away from the rjdc bunch. If they get their way, you won't have to worry about getting hired anywhere else. The only people who would ever hire again would be the lowest bidder. Some career, huh?

Thanks again.

 

[C425Driver]

FDJ,

Sorry about misquoting the wrong source.

Our mec's term is up very shortly. By the time we go through the steps of a recall, their term will be over and we will have a new mec in place. I just hope that our new mec will actually take an interest in actively seeking out the opinion of our pilot group as a whole before acting on such important issues. Until our new mec is in place, any outcry that you suggest would fall on deaf ears.

As for your mec not wanting us in your cockpits, I understand that - I don't like it, but I understand it. My point was that there are many of us who disagree with our mec's decision to handle this situation that way they did and now we must live with the consequenses of their actions.

C425Driver

 

[C425Driver]

FDJ wrote:

"If you are correct, that would certainly make me feel better. I do not doubt your word, but I wonder from where you got that information?

The relief section of the suit asks for $12,000,000 for every cmr pilot. I would be very happy to hear that this is not allowed."


I didn't put my source in the last post for a reason - it came from the rjdc (I know, I know....). I've listened to what they've said and I have no reason to doubt them on this one.

If anyone can back this up with more credible (legal) references, I'd like to hear them. But for now, there are 1200-1300 of us who are not planning on getting a dime from this lawsuit.

C425Driver