RideandDrive
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RJDC Update - March 8 (part 1)
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Part 1 of 2
You and many like you, including some of us that haven't been here long enough to know what you've done, would like us to consider that "history" and forget it. Just as you tell me that the Delta pilots will not forget what the Comair MEC has done, I must tell you that a majority of Comair pilots, IMO, do not forget what the Delta MEC has done. It is not "history", in that you continue to pursue it and you are currently planning to do even more.
You prefer to leave the union, rather that sit down with the likes of us and agree as to where the dividing lines should be drawn in the mutual interests of our Company and each other. Since we cannot impose anything against your will, what is it that you fear? For a while there I had thought better of you. I'm disappointed.
We have not been able to resolve our differences because your group really doesn't want a solution. What you want is our total capitulation and acquiescence to your will and your unilateral control of our future. We cannot give that and, in my opinion, should never give that. Submission to total domination by your group is not an option.
I did not tell you that Delta management couldn't control Comair management. Of course it can. Yes, I know perfectly well that if Leo directed CMR management to hire furloughed Delta pilots, it would be done, not tomorrow, but yesterday. Thank you for making the point. Now, do you surmise that your MEC also knows that? I am quite certain that it does. By the way, so does my MEC.
That is precisely why it is so obvious that your MEC's behavior on this "hiring issue" was a carefully planned and orchestrated effort to discredit the Comair MEC and divide Comair pilots against each other. It is totally transparent.
If your MEC truly wanted to secure employment at Comair for Delta's furloughed pilots, your Chairman could have approached Mr. Mullin or Mr. Reid and made the request directly to them. Why do you suppose he did not do that? I'll give you my version. He saw a political opportunity to cast doubt upon the credibility of the Comair MEC and divide Comair pilots, and he jumped on it.
He knew before the fact that if he went to the Comair MEC and made a threat , whatever he proposed would likely be rejected. His proposal itself was not the objective. His ability to ensure a "rejection" was.
He also had to find something that would incite the rank-and-file at Delta, particularly the junior group, and at the same time turn a substantial percentage of Comair pilots against their own MEC. It was not too difficult to recognize which portion of the Comair group would be the easiest to influence, i.e., the most junior pilots, all hired within the same time frame as Delta's furloughed pilots, all eager for the dream job at Delta mainline. All with less than 3 years seniority, about half of them still on probation, and most in their 1st airline job. One third of the Comair seniority list.
A classic case of killing two birds with one stone. 30% of his own pilots are worried about furloughs and down grades and 1000 are already on the street. Their frustration with the inability of the Delta MEC to solve the problem is growing, and he knows that his chances of wining an instant recall mandate in the arbitration are remote. What to do?
Answer -- get a resolution directing him to get the CMR MEC to hire furloughed Delta pilots. Next, offer the Comair pilots preferential hiring at Delta mainline in exchange. He knows he can't deliver that, but who cares? They (CMR) want it so bad that their MEC will take the bait.
When he threatens the Comair leaders, it will p!ss them off and they'll say no. As soon as that happens he'll launch a PR campaign against them telling Delta pilots that the Comair MEC has spurned and rejected them in their time of need, and telling Comair pilots that as a direct punitive consequence they'll never be hired at Delta in the future.
That will turn the heads of his own people away from what he can't do for them and focus their ire against Comair. The Delta guys are already mad about the lawsuit anyway and getting rid of it is your true objective. This will fuel their fire.
In turn the Comair kids will hate their MEC for denying them a chance at Delta, they'll split with the senior ba*tards, divide internally and lose their solidarity. As a fringe benefit, the dam*ed RJDC is likely to lose most of its support. It's perfect. So planned, so said, and so done.
To date, it has worked as intended within the Delta pilot group. Your rhetoric and that of others is evidence of that. You bought it hook, line and sinker.
However, it really hasn't worked as well as expected within the Comair group. Many of CMR's juniors are worried about not getting hired, and eager to tell you "it wasn't me, I disagree with my MEC", but the seniors who have smelled the rat and know his habits are holding the line and working with the juniors to help them understand what is really going on behind the scenes. What's more, we've "gone public" too. I've got to hand it to you. It was a well-planned and well-executed attack; I give you credit for that. Your PR is good and you have us scrambling to defend our position, even though truth is on our side. But your little scheme isn't going to work; "we have just begun to fight".
You see there may be 1/3 of us who don't really know you, who don't understand your hidden motives and who have not as yet fully assimilated or embraced the concept that they are Comair pilots. They're just happy they got hired and hopeful that they will one day become Delta pilots. You and your MEC are deliberately using their ambitions in and effort to browbeat them and use them as pawns in your MEC's political battle.
However, there are 2/3 of us who do know, who do understand your motives and vindictive nature (so clearly manifest in the rhetoric of your posts) when you don't get your way or cannot impose it by force, and we're telling our brothers. You will not succeed in dividing us.
If there is anything despicable about this sordid mess it is the strategy employed by your MEC. Not only are you "using" Comair's junior pilots, you are also "using" your own furloughees to achieve unrelated political goals. Then, cleverly, you accuse us of doing that as you seek to transfer the blame. That is what I believe you started out to do, and it is also what you continue to pursue.
The bottom line is elementary FDJ, if your MEC Chairman really wanted our assistance for the furloughed Delta pilots, and was not involved in a planned political coup d'etat against the Comair MEC, all he had to do was pick up the phone and ask our Chairman for help. Odds are 9:1 he would have gotten it.
He didn't need a publicly orchestrated MEC resolution at the BOD. He didn't need to offer preferential hiring at Delta, which he knew he couldn't deliver. He didn't need to threaten us with "going public" or anything else. He didn't need to incite Delta pilots against Comair pilots. He didn't need to attempt to divide Comair pilots and set them against each other. All that he needed to do was ask for our help. But no, he couldn't do that, because the idea of a Delta MEC Chairman asking a lowly Comair MEC Chairman for help, with anything, is just too demeaning. More importantly, we'd probably say yes, and then the master plan would fall flat on its face.
Since he knew deep down that only a handful of his own would ever accept employment at Comair anyway (that's what you told me), it was easy to sacrifice those few for the chance to divide the Comair pilot group internally. Backroom Politics is a dirty game FDJ, and your MEC plays it well. Additionally, it is ALPA's traditional modus operandi.
Continued --
I can fully appreciate that. My hope is that you come to appreciate that the feeling is mutual. I don't judge your MEC by what it says FDJ, my judgements are based directly upon what it has done. My information as to what that is, is not second hand. Sorry to say, I don't trust your leaders "good intentions" either. "I have seen the Emperor without his clothes."
You and many like you, including some of us that haven't been here long enough to know what you've done, would like us to consider that "history" and forget it. Just as you tell me that the Delta pilots will not forget what the Comair MEC has done, I must tell you that a majority of Comair pilots, IMO, do not forget what the Delta MEC has done. It is not "history", in that you continue to pursue it and you are currently planning to do even more.
And there you have it. Your colors are now flying at full staff. You have just shown me, in your own words, that your past rhetoric about the dangers to "our union" posed by the litigation is just that, rhetoric. Your concerns are not about the "union" and they never have been. Your only concern is your self-interest. I don't fault you for having that self-interest. However, when that self-interest comes at the expense of my fellow pilots' futures, it cannot be ignored nor accepted. I don't buy the concept that your motives are altruistic, just because you tell me that they are.
You prefer to leave the union, rather that sit down with the likes of us and agree as to where the dividing lines should be drawn in the mutual interests of our Company and each other. Since we cannot impose anything against your will, what is it that you fear? For a while there I had thought better of you. I'm disappointed.
We have not been able to resolve our differences because your group really doesn't want a solution. What you want is our total capitulation and acquiescence to your will and your unilateral control of our future. We cannot give that and, in my opinion, should never give that. Submission to total domination by your group is not an option.
Years … you make it sound like a really long time. Must be the difference in our ages. Your company only bought my company in early 2000. I would call that yesterday, not years. Anyway, that's beside the point. For the record, I'm glad you acknowledge that Captain Lawson's account is factual.
I did not tell you that Delta management couldn't control Comair management. Of course it can. Yes, I know perfectly well that if Leo directed CMR management to hire furloughed Delta pilots, it would be done, not tomorrow, but yesterday. Thank you for making the point. Now, do you surmise that your MEC also knows that? I am quite certain that it does. By the way, so does my MEC.
That is precisely why it is so obvious that your MEC's behavior on this "hiring issue" was a carefully planned and orchestrated effort to discredit the Comair MEC and divide Comair pilots against each other. It is totally transparent.
If your MEC truly wanted to secure employment at Comair for Delta's furloughed pilots, your Chairman could have approached Mr. Mullin or Mr. Reid and made the request directly to them. Why do you suppose he did not do that? I'll give you my version. He saw a political opportunity to cast doubt upon the credibility of the Comair MEC and divide Comair pilots, and he jumped on it.
He knew before the fact that if he went to the Comair MEC and made a threat , whatever he proposed would likely be rejected. His proposal itself was not the objective. His ability to ensure a "rejection" was.
He also had to find something that would incite the rank-and-file at Delta, particularly the junior group, and at the same time turn a substantial percentage of Comair pilots against their own MEC. It was not too difficult to recognize which portion of the Comair group would be the easiest to influence, i.e., the most junior pilots, all hired within the same time frame as Delta's furloughed pilots, all eager for the dream job at Delta mainline. All with less than 3 years seniority, about half of them still on probation, and most in their 1st airline job. One third of the Comair seniority list.
A classic case of killing two birds with one stone. 30% of his own pilots are worried about furloughs and down grades and 1000 are already on the street. Their frustration with the inability of the Delta MEC to solve the problem is growing, and he knows that his chances of wining an instant recall mandate in the arbitration are remote. What to do?
Answer -- get a resolution directing him to get the CMR MEC to hire furloughed Delta pilots. Next, offer the Comair pilots preferential hiring at Delta mainline in exchange. He knows he can't deliver that, but who cares? They (CMR) want it so bad that their MEC will take the bait.
When he threatens the Comair leaders, it will p!ss them off and they'll say no. As soon as that happens he'll launch a PR campaign against them telling Delta pilots that the Comair MEC has spurned and rejected them in their time of need, and telling Comair pilots that as a direct punitive consequence they'll never be hired at Delta in the future.
That will turn the heads of his own people away from what he can't do for them and focus their ire against Comair. The Delta guys are already mad about the lawsuit anyway and getting rid of it is your true objective. This will fuel their fire.
In turn the Comair kids will hate their MEC for denying them a chance at Delta, they'll split with the senior ba*tards, divide internally and lose their solidarity. As a fringe benefit, the dam*ed RJDC is likely to lose most of its support. It's perfect. So planned, so said, and so done.
To date, it has worked as intended within the Delta pilot group. Your rhetoric and that of others is evidence of that. You bought it hook, line and sinker.
However, it really hasn't worked as well as expected within the Comair group. Many of CMR's juniors are worried about not getting hired, and eager to tell you "it wasn't me, I disagree with my MEC", but the seniors who have smelled the rat and know his habits are holding the line and working with the juniors to help them understand what is really going on behind the scenes. What's more, we've "gone public" too. I've got to hand it to you. It was a well-planned and well-executed attack; I give you credit for that. Your PR is good and you have us scrambling to defend our position, even though truth is on our side. But your little scheme isn't going to work; "we have just begun to fight".
You see there may be 1/3 of us who don't really know you, who don't understand your hidden motives and who have not as yet fully assimilated or embraced the concept that they are Comair pilots. They're just happy they got hired and hopeful that they will one day become Delta pilots. You and your MEC are deliberately using their ambitions in and effort to browbeat them and use them as pawns in your MEC's political battle.
However, there are 2/3 of us who do know, who do understand your motives and vindictive nature (so clearly manifest in the rhetoric of your posts) when you don't get your way or cannot impose it by force, and we're telling our brothers. You will not succeed in dividing us.
If there is anything despicable about this sordid mess it is the strategy employed by your MEC. Not only are you "using" Comair's junior pilots, you are also "using" your own furloughees to achieve unrelated political goals. Then, cleverly, you accuse us of doing that as you seek to transfer the blame. That is what I believe you started out to do, and it is also what you continue to pursue.
The bottom line is elementary FDJ, if your MEC Chairman really wanted our assistance for the furloughed Delta pilots, and was not involved in a planned political coup d'etat against the Comair MEC, all he had to do was pick up the phone and ask our Chairman for help. Odds are 9:1 he would have gotten it.
He didn't need a publicly orchestrated MEC resolution at the BOD. He didn't need to offer preferential hiring at Delta, which he knew he couldn't deliver. He didn't need to threaten us with "going public" or anything else. He didn't need to incite Delta pilots against Comair pilots. He didn't need to attempt to divide Comair pilots and set them against each other. All that he needed to do was ask for our help. But no, he couldn't do that, because the idea of a Delta MEC Chairman asking a lowly Comair MEC Chairman for help, with anything, is just too demeaning. More importantly, we'd probably say yes, and then the master plan would fall flat on its face.
Since he knew deep down that only a handful of his own would ever accept employment at Comair anyway (that's what you told me), it was easy to sacrifice those few for the chance to divide the Comair pilot group internally. Backroom Politics is a dirty game FDJ, and your MEC plays it well. Additionally, it is ALPA's traditional modus operandi.
Continued --
Part 2 of 2
The truth is most of us, and that includes myself, sympathize with the plight of furloughed pilots regardless of their airline affiliation and yes, that includes Delta pilots. We would like to see you get jobs and we would like to help. You know very well that we believe that both you and we are really employed by a single corporate entity and should share the benefits. Not equally (you were there first), but share nonetheless. Therefore, it is natural that we should want to help you when you're in trouble. Your MEC has exploited that knowledge for an ulterior motive. Frankly it disgusts me.
Personally, before you all did this, I would have been willing to set aside our differences and recommend the cessation of all off the street hiring at Comair until such time as every furloughed Delta pilot, who wanted the job, had been hired. I would even have gone so far as to recommend that you be hired automatically without the need for any interview and given the right to exercise your Delta longevity, provided none of our own were displaced or prevented from upgrade, while asking nothing of you in return. Maybe the Company would not have agreed, but I myself was willing to try and willing to lobby my MEC to do the same. Now, in view of your MEC's ploy and your vindictive threats towards our innocent junior pilots, I have abandoned that concept and quietly circled the wagons with everyone that I can to defend against your attack. I will resist those threats until they cease and encourage my fellow pilots to do likewise.
I no longer wish to bury the hatchet. Why? Because I find the actions of your MEC in this matter far more despicable than you find the actions of mine. Do I hold that against the Delta line pilot? No, I do not, for most of you don't have a clue as to how your MEC really operates.
Seriously … you're doing all that you're doing for the benefit of "the profession"? You really expect me to believe that? I'll bet you believe that's what ALPA is doing too, right? Maybe that's the purpose of their J4J protocol, designed to rob regional pilots of their seniority in order to better "protect the profession"? I think you know better, but then again maybe you really don't. Whose profession are you trying to protect FDJ, is it ours collectively as airline pilots, or is it yours individually? Never mind, I already know the answer. For a moment I forgot that in the eyes of ALPA and MEC's like yours, regional pilots don't have a profession, they are merely aspirants and therefore disposable.
I guess I knew that your threats were intentional and explicit. I just tried to temper the rhetoric a bit by referring to it as "thinly veiled". Sorry, I won't make that mistake again. Since your MEC fired the first salvo many moons ago perhaps it is a quid pro quo. That is unfortunate, not praiseworthy. This in fighting is truly counterproductive.
FDJ, it is not that my MEC does not want Comair pilots to share a cockpit with Delta pilots. Those of us that understand this dispute are well aware that both Delta pilots and Comair pilots are victims of unreasonable behavior on the part of ALPA politicians and Delta MEC politicians. Most of us wish that it were not so, but it is. Our efforts to change that have been akin to crying in the wilderness, for a decade. Under the circumstances, we cannot afford to pretend that there is no problem. There is a problem and it is growing.
The Comair MEC is charged with protecting the long-term interests of every Comair pilot, not the short-term interests of those that wish to leave Comair, nor those already at Delta. Our MEC cannot abdicate that responsibility and just accept whatever ALPA and the Delta MEC may choose to do from time to time. In other words, it cannot abdicate because you would like it to do so whenever your interests make it convenient.
Either we seek and find together a mutually agreeable method of resolving our differences or those differences will continue to grow and this will get much worse than it already is. As soon as your MEC gives any kind of signal that it is willing to talk with us, and not demand or dictate what we should do, progress will begin. If it does not do so, the war will continue to expand until it becomes total. That is not good for you and it is not good for us.
I gather you believe you can win a total war and apparently you are willing to risk one. Our position is defensive, but well dug in. Perhaps you can win, but I believe we can hold our own ground and am willing to try. There is a better way, but we will not find it until BOTH of us are willing to look.
We really aren't replacing you at all FDJ. Changes in deployment of aircraft are due only to economics, which we do not control and you do not control. Actually, along with ASA and the others, our activities are contributing enough to the parent company to keep many more of you from winding up on the streets than those already there. If your MEC's policies were different than they are, it is highly probable that none of you would be furloughed today, and neither would any of us. Those that have newly come to us in the last year or two might not be here, but no Delta pilots would be unemployed. Unfortunately, many of you are not wise enough to understand that or too arrogant to admit it.
Nevertheless, I truly hope that the Company will recover sooner than later and you can all be restored to your original positions post haste. Comair pilots get no satisfaction or pleasure from your furloughs and wish to see them ended. How that happens is more dependent upon you that it is upon us. So far, you have done little to help yourselves and your leaders have done much to hurt you. Do not blame us for that.
It is true that our careers have not yet been damaged by your actions, but that is merely an accident of fate brought about by circumstance beyond your control or ours, which has prevented the implementation of your injurious policies towards us. Notwithstanding those events, we are very close to experiencing the ill effects of your effort to limit us. For as long as that effort continues, we must do the best that we can to protect our own interests, before we address yours.
Sorry to disappoint you but mine is by no means a sob story. I enjoy what I do and what I have done and only regret that I don't have more time to spend being a Comair pilot. I have been in other places and much larger equipment, and have not forgotten my former pilot group, but I like being a part of this one. With very few exceptions, Comair people are a class act! I hope that our newer pilots will learn to live up to our traditions just as I hope you will learn to become a real Delta pilot like the old school, which was also a class act. I'm not so sure that the "new breed" lives up to the former Delta standard.
As my Chairman said, the door is still open.
The truth is most of us, and that includes myself, sympathize with the plight of furloughed pilots regardless of their airline affiliation and yes, that includes Delta pilots. We would like to see you get jobs and we would like to help. You know very well that we believe that both you and we are really employed by a single corporate entity and should share the benefits. Not equally (you were there first), but share nonetheless. Therefore, it is natural that we should want to help you when you're in trouble. Your MEC has exploited that knowledge for an ulterior motive. Frankly it disgusts me.
Personally, before you all did this, I would have been willing to set aside our differences and recommend the cessation of all off the street hiring at Comair until such time as every furloughed Delta pilot, who wanted the job, had been hired. I would even have gone so far as to recommend that you be hired automatically without the need for any interview and given the right to exercise your Delta longevity, provided none of our own were displaced or prevented from upgrade, while asking nothing of you in return. Maybe the Company would not have agreed, but I myself was willing to try and willing to lobby my MEC to do the same. Now, in view of your MEC's ploy and your vindictive threats towards our innocent junior pilots, I have abandoned that concept and quietly circled the wagons with everyone that I can to defend against your attack. I will resist those threats until they cease and encourage my fellow pilots to do likewise.
I no longer wish to bury the hatchet. Why? Because I find the actions of your MEC in this matter far more despicable than you find the actions of mine. Do I hold that against the Delta line pilot? No, I do not, for most of you don't have a clue as to how your MEC really operates.
Seriously … you're doing all that you're doing for the benefit of "the profession"? You really expect me to believe that? I'll bet you believe that's what ALPA is doing too, right? Maybe that's the purpose of their J4J protocol, designed to rob regional pilots of their seniority in order to better "protect the profession"? I think you know better, but then again maybe you really don't. Whose profession are you trying to protect FDJ, is it ours collectively as airline pilots, or is it yours individually? Never mind, I already know the answer. For a moment I forgot that in the eyes of ALPA and MEC's like yours, regional pilots don't have a profession, they are merely aspirants and therefore disposable.
Yet you find it strange that we support ours? Why would you expect a difference? In view of your behavior you have only encouraged us to rise to the defense of our own. You want us to recall our leadership and are clamoring for it. Why? Because you did not get your way and failed to pull the wool over their eyes? Why don't you recall your leadership for creating this debacle? I think that would be most appropriate. Perhaps you could then elect some statesmen, to replace the dirty politicians.
Are we really? Funny I didn't know that. We are not acting against the hiring of your pilots FDJ, we are merely not doing anything to convince our management to change its policies. Why should we? You guys don't want jobs at Comair or at least that's what you told me. You just want to use the Comair group (once more) to serve your MEC's political ends. We don't care to be used by you or anyone else. We do not like your political agenda and will not subscribe to it. It does nothing other that make Comair and ASA pilots permanent vassals of the Delta MEC and subject to its whims. That is not for us now and most probably will not be in the future. When you come to understand that, maybe the healing can begin.
I guess I knew that your threats were intentional and explicit. I just tried to temper the rhetoric a bit by referring to it as "thinly veiled". Sorry, I won't make that mistake again. Since your MEC fired the first salvo many moons ago perhaps it is a quid pro quo. That is unfortunate, not praiseworthy. This in fighting is truly counterproductive.
FDJ, it is not that my MEC does not want Comair pilots to share a cockpit with Delta pilots. Those of us that understand this dispute are well aware that both Delta pilots and Comair pilots are victims of unreasonable behavior on the part of ALPA politicians and Delta MEC politicians. Most of us wish that it were not so, but it is. Our efforts to change that have been akin to crying in the wilderness, for a decade. Under the circumstances, we cannot afford to pretend that there is no problem. There is a problem and it is growing.
The Comair MEC is charged with protecting the long-term interests of every Comair pilot, not the short-term interests of those that wish to leave Comair, nor those already at Delta. Our MEC cannot abdicate that responsibility and just accept whatever ALPA and the Delta MEC may choose to do from time to time. In other words, it cannot abdicate because you would like it to do so whenever your interests make it convenient.
Either we seek and find together a mutually agreeable method of resolving our differences or those differences will continue to grow and this will get much worse than it already is. As soon as your MEC gives any kind of signal that it is willing to talk with us, and not demand or dictate what we should do, progress will begin. If it does not do so, the war will continue to expand until it becomes total. That is not good for you and it is not good for us.
I gather you believe you can win a total war and apparently you are willing to risk one. Our position is defensive, but well dug in. Perhaps you can win, but I believe we can hold our own ground and am willing to try. There is a better way, but we will not find it until BOTH of us are willing to look.
We really aren't replacing you at all FDJ. Changes in deployment of aircraft are due only to economics, which we do not control and you do not control. Actually, along with ASA and the others, our activities are contributing enough to the parent company to keep many more of you from winding up on the streets than those already there. If your MEC's policies were different than they are, it is highly probable that none of you would be furloughed today, and neither would any of us. Those that have newly come to us in the last year or two might not be here, but no Delta pilots would be unemployed. Unfortunately, many of you are not wise enough to understand that or too arrogant to admit it.
Nevertheless, I truly hope that the Company will recover sooner than later and you can all be restored to your original positions post haste. Comair pilots get no satisfaction or pleasure from your furloughs and wish to see them ended. How that happens is more dependent upon you that it is upon us. So far, you have done little to help yourselves and your leaders have done much to hurt you. Do not blame us for that.
It is true that our careers have not yet been damaged by your actions, but that is merely an accident of fate brought about by circumstance beyond your control or ours, which has prevented the implementation of your injurious policies towards us. Notwithstanding those events, we are very close to experiencing the ill effects of your effort to limit us. For as long as that effort continues, we must do the best that we can to protect our own interests, before we address yours.
Sorry to disappoint you but mine is by no means a sob story. I enjoy what I do and what I have done and only regret that I don't have more time to spend being a Comair pilot. I have been in other places and much larger equipment, and have not forgotten my former pilot group, but I like being a part of this one. With very few exceptions, Comair people are a class act! I hope that our newer pilots will learn to live up to our traditions just as I hope you will learn to become a real Delta pilot like the old school, which was also a class act. I'm not so sure that the "new breed" lives up to the former Delta standard.
As my Chairman said, the door is still open.
Last edited:
FlyDeltasJets
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 664
Your mec is actively working against the hiring of our pilots. If there were not, some Delta guys would have already been hired, like they were at ASA. We have done no such thing to your pilots in the past, yet when we suggest doing so in the future, it is we who are painted as the aggressors.
We asked you to stop opposing the hiring of Delta pilots. Your mec would not agree. Period. We did ask our mgt to hire our pilots at cmr. We were told that your pilots objected. Hence the meeting. Also, hence the reason that we did not need a meeting with ASA pilots. Spin it however you like.
As to the rest of your post, I value this profession and protecting it more than I believe in ALPA. After all, if belonging to a union means being subjected to the harmful and selfish whims of the rjdc, I would prefer to leave and found another union where the all of our careers would be protected. This profession means more to me than any union, and I am more than proud if that is showing my "true colors." Your group and actions, if successful, will bring us all down to the level of busdrivers, competing for flying by being the lowest bidder, and you question my motivations?
We will prevail. We will survive the jealous and selfish actions of a few, and we will remember them in future issues of "Flying the Line" as a sad bunch, unhappy with the direction their careers took, and therefore willing to sabatage the careers of their "brothers." If, in order to do so, we need to establish a new union, then so be it. You will not take our job protections, and you will not take our airplanes, no matter how hard you try.
We asked you to stop opposing the hiring of Delta pilots. Your mec would not agree. Period. We did ask our mgt to hire our pilots at cmr. We were told that your pilots objected. Hence the meeting. Also, hence the reason that we did not need a meeting with ASA pilots. Spin it however you like.
As to the rest of your post, I value this profession and protecting it more than I believe in ALPA. After all, if belonging to a union means being subjected to the harmful and selfish whims of the rjdc, I would prefer to leave and found another union where the all of our careers would be protected. This profession means more to me than any union, and I am more than proud if that is showing my "true colors." Your group and actions, if successful, will bring us all down to the level of busdrivers, competing for flying by being the lowest bidder, and you question my motivations?
We will prevail. We will survive the jealous and selfish actions of a few, and we will remember them in future issues of "Flying the Line" as a sad bunch, unhappy with the direction their careers took, and therefore willing to sabatage the careers of their "brothers." If, in order to do so, we need to establish a new union, then so be it. You will not take our job protections, and you will not take our airplanes, no matter how hard you try.
dsee8driver
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wil
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100LL... Again!
youwantapieceofme??
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
...in the eyes of ALPA and MEC's like yours, regional pilots don't have a profession, they are merely aspirants and therefore disposable.
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Agreed.
This sums up the impression of a great many regional pilots that I know. Frankly, our attitude is that you can negotiate whatever you are able to get. However, don't expect sympathy when you find yourself sliding backward. I've yet to make much of a living in this business. You will no doubt tell me it is due to my lower value as a pilot. After all, you got yours, so you were worthy, apparently. I don't care if you get a 50% raise. I also don't care if you get a 50% cut.
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We will prevail. We will survive the jealous and selfish actions of a few, and we will remember them in future issues of "Flying the Line" as a sad bunch, unhappy with the direction their careers took, and therefore willing to sabatage the careers of their "brothers." If, in order to do so, we need to establish a new union, then so be it. You will not take our job protections, and you will not take our airplanes, no matter how hard you try.
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An adolescent-flavored rant does nothing to solidify your credibility.
...jealous...selfish...sad, unhappy bunch...saboteurs...
"You will not take our airplanes" .. Do you hear me?!
FDJ: You make many valid points, but in a way that garners imperceptibly low levels of empathy, which is the coin of the realm in all things politic.
...in the eyes of ALPA and MEC's like yours, regional pilots don't have a profession, they are merely aspirants and therefore disposable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agreed.
This sums up the impression of a great many regional pilots that I know. Frankly, our attitude is that you can negotiate whatever you are able to get. However, don't expect sympathy when you find yourself sliding backward. I've yet to make much of a living in this business. You will no doubt tell me it is due to my lower value as a pilot. After all, you got yours, so you were worthy, apparently. I don't care if you get a 50% raise. I also don't care if you get a 50% cut.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We will prevail. We will survive the jealous and selfish actions of a few, and we will remember them in future issues of "Flying the Line" as a sad bunch, unhappy with the direction their careers took, and therefore willing to sabatage the careers of their "brothers." If, in order to do so, we need to establish a new union, then so be it. You will not take our job protections, and you will not take our airplanes, no matter how hard you try.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
An adolescent-flavored rant does nothing to solidify your credibility.
...jealous...selfish...sad, unhappy bunch...saboteurs...
"You will not take our airplanes" .. Do you hear me?!
FDJ: You make many valid points, but in a way that garners imperceptibly low levels of empathy, which is the coin of the realm in all things politic.
FlyDeltasJets
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Holy Cow 100LL!
Did you read the first half of your post before using the second half to accuse me of being "adolescent"?
Surplus' quote, and your response to it, were nothing but self-pitying nonsense, with no basis in fact. It, and statements like it, are designed only to garner sympathy from your peers and to blame us for whatever shortcomings you perceive in your contract. I have learned from my time on this board that anyone can insult mainline pilots with impunity, but any insult of regional pilots will be met with howls of protest. It's ok, I'm used to the double standard. I'm also a white male!
I hate to burst your bubble, but I have NEVER called any regional pilot "unworthy." I have never, in all my posts, questioned any pilot's qualifications, "value," character, etc. I know, and have always stated, that pilots are pilots regardless of what airline they fly for. Unlike many, Surplus included, I have never stereotyped an entire pilot group by the actions of a few. I have ALWAYS supported every pilot group in their contract negotiations. Unlike you, it seems, I DO care whether you get a 50% raise or a 50% cut.
The regional contracts are FAR better with ALPA on the property than they were before ALPA. Those who like to blame ALPA for their woes forget that they are flying bigger airplanes to more destinations making way more money and growing faster than ever before. Regional pilots, to a man, have fared much better with ALPA than without. ALPA has given support to this struggle every step of the way, and to ignore their contributions in favor of petty and unfair accusations garners "imperceptibly low levels of empathy." Regional contracts are low not because of some devious scheme in ALPA national to keep them that way. Truly, what purpose would that serve for anyone? They are low because mgt knows that most pilots looking for their first regional job would cut off their arm to fly something with a turbine. I know, I was one of them. They are low because people have actually paid mgt to work for them (I was NEVER one of them). And further, they are low because many of the pilots have allowed them to be so. That is why I have always commeded cmr on their courageous strike. That's why I'm glad we signed their letter of mutual support during their negotiations. It's just a shame they refused to do the same for us (a rarely reported fact).
No one is out to get you, despite Surplus' rantings. He and his group, however, are out to get us. They have sued our union for $15,000,000,000. They have sued to eliminate my scope clause so cmr can take our airplanes. Don't take my word for it. Don't take his. Go to the website and read the suit (it's in the "downloads" section). If you think that this attack on our profession will not be met with an emotional response, you will be disappointed.
Apparently, it is ok for those from the regional side of the fence to make "adolescent-flavored rants" and value judgements about mainline pilots, but when one of us vows to protect his own flying, he is being less than "politic."
Thanks for the advice. Fortunately, fighting the rjdc is not a popularity contest. It will be defeated in court, regardless of what I write here. And if it is not, you won't have to worry about ALPA harming your career any more, because it will be bankrupt, and the major airline pilots will have started a new union in order to protect our contracts from a "thinly-veiled" attack on them under the guise of a DFR claim.
Did you read the first half of your post before using the second half to accuse me of being "adolescent"?
Surplus' quote, and your response to it, were nothing but self-pitying nonsense, with no basis in fact. It, and statements like it, are designed only to garner sympathy from your peers and to blame us for whatever shortcomings you perceive in your contract. I have learned from my time on this board that anyone can insult mainline pilots with impunity, but any insult of regional pilots will be met with howls of protest. It's ok, I'm used to the double standard. I'm also a white male!
I hate to burst your bubble, but I have NEVER called any regional pilot "unworthy." I have never, in all my posts, questioned any pilot's qualifications, "value," character, etc. I know, and have always stated, that pilots are pilots regardless of what airline they fly for. Unlike many, Surplus included, I have never stereotyped an entire pilot group by the actions of a few. I have ALWAYS supported every pilot group in their contract negotiations. Unlike you, it seems, I DO care whether you get a 50% raise or a 50% cut.
The regional contracts are FAR better with ALPA on the property than they were before ALPA. Those who like to blame ALPA for their woes forget that they are flying bigger airplanes to more destinations making way more money and growing faster than ever before. Regional pilots, to a man, have fared much better with ALPA than without. ALPA has given support to this struggle every step of the way, and to ignore their contributions in favor of petty and unfair accusations garners "imperceptibly low levels of empathy." Regional contracts are low not because of some devious scheme in ALPA national to keep them that way. Truly, what purpose would that serve for anyone? They are low because mgt knows that most pilots looking for their first regional job would cut off their arm to fly something with a turbine. I know, I was one of them. They are low because people have actually paid mgt to work for them (I was NEVER one of them). And further, they are low because many of the pilots have allowed them to be so. That is why I have always commeded cmr on their courageous strike. That's why I'm glad we signed their letter of mutual support during their negotiations. It's just a shame they refused to do the same for us (a rarely reported fact).
No one is out to get you, despite Surplus' rantings. He and his group, however, are out to get us. They have sued our union for $15,000,000,000. They have sued to eliminate my scope clause so cmr can take our airplanes. Don't take my word for it. Don't take his. Go to the website and read the suit (it's in the "downloads" section). If you think that this attack on our profession will not be met with an emotional response, you will be disappointed.
Apparently, it is ok for those from the regional side of the fence to make "adolescent-flavored rants" and value judgements about mainline pilots, but when one of us vows to protect his own flying, he is being less than "politic."
Thanks for the advice. Fortunately, fighting the rjdc is not a popularity contest. It will be defeated in court, regardless of what I write here. And if it is not, you won't have to worry about ALPA harming your career any more, because it will be bankrupt, and the major airline pilots will have started a new union in order to protect our contracts from a "thinly-veiled" attack on them under the guise of a DFR claim.
FlyDeltasJets
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skydiverdriver
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I agree with Wil, and think that's an excellent plan. I also think it will never happen, as the Delta MEC will refuse to speak to us about it.
FDJ,
I used to think you were a very reasoned and responsible person, but now all you seem to do is rant. You keep saying the same things over and over, and most of them make no sense. You take a little bit of truth, and blow it up into something that is not true.
I still think you are a reasonable person, but if you keep talking like you are, nobody is going to listen to you. Perhaps if you just take one item at a time, and stop making your entire case on every post, you might get more people willing to speak to you. Good luck to you, sir.
FDJ,
I used to think you were a very reasoned and responsible person, but now all you seem to do is rant. You keep saying the same things over and over, and most of them make no sense. You take a little bit of truth, and blow it up into something that is not true.
I still think you are a reasonable person, but if you keep talking like you are, nobody is going to listen to you. Perhaps if you just take one item at a time, and stop making your entire case on every post, you might get more people willing to speak to you. Good luck to you, sir.
FlyDeltasJets
Well-known member
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- Nov 25, 2001
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- 664
Thanks for the unsoliceted advice. I will admit my patience with the rjdc bunch is wearing more thin with each passing day.
I do find it ironic that my 7 paragraph response seemed to concern you, while you happily agree with every one of Surplus' multi-page rants.
When I want your advice on my posting style, I will send you a private message asking for it. Until then, why don't we concentrate on the issues.
I do find it ironic that my 7 paragraph response seemed to concern you, while you happily agree with every one of Surplus' multi-page rants.
When I want your advice on my posting style, I will send you a private message asking for it. Until then, why don't we concentrate on the issues.
Why should I speak?
Jets,
About this silence indicates approval thing...I'm new to Comair and consider myself a moderate on this issue. I'm personally good friends with a number of furloughed Delta pilots and I would love to see them here at Comair with their Delta number intact. I'm happy to be flying RJ's and if I want to fly bigger aircraft, I'll interview just like everybody else when the time comes. I think the RJDC is playing with fire though at times I'm glad they're around.
Many of the older Captains I fly with harbor some old feelings of resentment towards Delta mainline with how they were treated when we were purchased. So much so that I think some believe fighting is the only way we're ever going to get anything to secure the best future at Comair...even at the expense of ruining future oppurtunites to move to Delta. I listen to their arguments and one thing is always common...the person making it is too old to move to Delta ie. they have nothing to lose by alienating the Delta pilots. I and many of the younger Comair pilots look at them with a healthy bit of skepticism. Fair enough.
Now with that said, I am sympathetic to the furloughed Delta pilots and I want them to come aboard but the actions of the Delta MEC give a lot of evidence to what the old guys at Comair are saying. It would have been far more effective to say nothing on the issue but the outrageous threats to blackball future hiring of Comair pilots and take away our 70 seaters are doing a lot to convince me that my best interest is to, as someone said earlier, circle the wagons and defend what we have. My MEC was unreasonable but it was your MEC who quickly walked out, made these threats, and shut the door on furthur negotiating. That tells me that maybe our guys are right, you don't want fair, you want what you can take. I think my MEC wanted some things that were not reasonable but he left the door open for talks...a door that is STILL OPEN. It was your MEC who shut it and that's an extremely important point that is not stressed enough on this board. If you guys are serious about Delta pilots coming on at Comair, you are really hurting your cause with the moderates such as myself who could make a difference. I want to have civil discussions but all I get is a lot of threats and intimidation from Delta pilots. So in this environment, why should I help someone who is threatening me? As long as you're making them, I have no choice but to side with my MEC as he has more (not all) of my best interest at heart. Lower the threats and maybe you'll see more of an outcry from us and our MEC's postion can be changed.
O.
FlyDeltasJets said:
Jets,
About this silence indicates approval thing...I'm new to Comair and consider myself a moderate on this issue. I'm personally good friends with a number of furloughed Delta pilots and I would love to see them here at Comair with their Delta number intact. I'm happy to be flying RJ's and if I want to fly bigger aircraft, I'll interview just like everybody else when the time comes. I think the RJDC is playing with fire though at times I'm glad they're around.
Many of the older Captains I fly with harbor some old feelings of resentment towards Delta mainline with how they were treated when we were purchased. So much so that I think some believe fighting is the only way we're ever going to get anything to secure the best future at Comair...even at the expense of ruining future oppurtunites to move to Delta. I listen to their arguments and one thing is always common...the person making it is too old to move to Delta ie. they have nothing to lose by alienating the Delta pilots. I and many of the younger Comair pilots look at them with a healthy bit of skepticism. Fair enough.
Now with that said, I am sympathetic to the furloughed Delta pilots and I want them to come aboard but the actions of the Delta MEC give a lot of evidence to what the old guys at Comair are saying. It would have been far more effective to say nothing on the issue but the outrageous threats to blackball future hiring of Comair pilots and take away our 70 seaters are doing a lot to convince me that my best interest is to, as someone said earlier, circle the wagons and defend what we have. My MEC was unreasonable but it was your MEC who quickly walked out, made these threats, and shut the door on furthur negotiating. That tells me that maybe our guys are right, you don't want fair, you want what you can take. I think my MEC wanted some things that were not reasonable but he left the door open for talks...a door that is STILL OPEN. It was your MEC who shut it and that's an extremely important point that is not stressed enough on this board. If you guys are serious about Delta pilots coming on at Comair, you are really hurting your cause with the moderates such as myself who could make a difference. I want to have civil discussions but all I get is a lot of threats and intimidation from Delta pilots. So in this environment, why should I help someone who is threatening me? As long as you're making them, I have no choice but to side with my MEC as he has more (not all) of my best interest at heart. Lower the threats and maybe you'll see more of an outcry from us and our MEC's postion can be changed.
O.
100LL... Again!
youwantapieceofme??
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- 1,533
FDJ-
Believe it or not, I have nothing against you personally - look at it this way:
I once read a story about a guy who got cut off in traffic by another car. He followed him to a stop sign and got out. The other driver got out. They were going to fight. Then they recognized each other. So much for fighting.
My point? On an individual basis, I'm sure I would be very sympathetic to most of the individuals involved here, both surplus and yourself. However, the groupthink of the mainline pilots as awhole and ALPA national leave me disillusioned and indifferent to the fate of the 'profession'. I'll care about the profession when it starts caring about me. It doesn't. Let's not pretend it does.
I am simply doing the dirty work of impolitically bringing out the collective opinion of many pilots I know. I do not resent your good fortune in this business. However, I feel that many mainline pilots have a 'royalty' mentality, and can't understand why others do not share their views. You may not have this opinion, but your statement at the end of your post seemed very bitter, angry, and well, adolescent.
Best wishes to you individually. Not to the group mentality, though.
Believe it or not, I have nothing against you personally - look at it this way:
I once read a story about a guy who got cut off in traffic by another car. He followed him to a stop sign and got out. The other driver got out. They were going to fight. Then they recognized each other. So much for fighting.
My point? On an individual basis, I'm sure I would be very sympathetic to most of the individuals involved here, both surplus and yourself. However, the groupthink of the mainline pilots as awhole and ALPA national leave me disillusioned and indifferent to the fate of the 'profession'. I'll care about the profession when it starts caring about me. It doesn't. Let's not pretend it does.
I am simply doing the dirty work of impolitically bringing out the collective opinion of many pilots I know. I do not resent your good fortune in this business. However, I feel that many mainline pilots have a 'royalty' mentality, and can't understand why others do not share their views. You may not have this opinion, but your statement at the end of your post seemed very bitter, angry, and well, adolescent.
Best wishes to you individually. Not to the group mentality, though.
FlyDeltasJets
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Otto,
Your mec has actively worked to prevent the hiring of our pilots at your airline. We have only threatened to respond in kind. Yet it is we who are painted as the bad guy. You said that "the door is open to future negotiations." Why should we give any of our hard-won gains up simply to get you to stop objecting to the hiring of a handful of our guys? I don't think that it is we who are being unreasonable.
We will have to agree to disagree. I fully support the actions of my mec. If you support yours, then you should not be surprised at the path they have chosen. If you do not support them, I think (not threatening) that you should let them know.
I wish you luck whichever path your pilot group chooses.
Your mec has actively worked to prevent the hiring of our pilots at your airline. We have only threatened to respond in kind. Yet it is we who are painted as the bad guy. You said that "the door is open to future negotiations." Why should we give any of our hard-won gains up simply to get you to stop objecting to the hiring of a handful of our guys? I don't think that it is we who are being unreasonable.
We will have to agree to disagree. I fully support the actions of my mec. If you support yours, then you should not be surprised at the path they have chosen. If you do not support them, I think (not threatening) that you should let them know.
I wish you luck whichever path your pilot group chooses.
FlyDeltasJets
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100LL,
While I don't disagree that many in our group have a "royalty" mentality, I would argue that far more from your group enjoy playing the victim. We are not out to get you. There is not some conspiracy to keep your wages down. What purpose would that serve for us? You are already getting all the growth because your costs are so low. Why would we encourage more of that?
Methinks there is a fair amount of paranoia at work.
You wrote:
"I'll care about the profession when it starts caring about me. It doesn't. Let's not pretend it does."
It is not my place to lecture, but I would suggest that if more people cared more for the profession, the profession would start caring about more people.
P.S.
If my earlier post sounded angry, it was supposed to. These people are suing our union for $15,000,000,000 and trying to eliminate the job protections of another pilot group. I am angry. I am also surprised and saddened that more people aren't. I don't think that it is any wonder that this profession is in the trouble it is.
PPS
I also think that we'd get along on a personal level. I've been told (believe it or not) that I'm easy to get along with. I have no reason to think that you're not the same way. As such, (except for the occasional scab comment) I have never resorted to personal insults on this board, and I have never stereotyped an entire pilot group.
While I don't disagree that many in our group have a "royalty" mentality, I would argue that far more from your group enjoy playing the victim. We are not out to get you. There is not some conspiracy to keep your wages down. What purpose would that serve for us? You are already getting all the growth because your costs are so low. Why would we encourage more of that?
Methinks there is a fair amount of paranoia at work.
You wrote:
"I'll care about the profession when it starts caring about me. It doesn't. Let's not pretend it does."
It is not my place to lecture, but I would suggest that if more people cared more for the profession, the profession would start caring about more people.
P.S.
If my earlier post sounded angry, it was supposed to. These people are suing our union for $15,000,000,000 and trying to eliminate the job protections of another pilot group. I am angry. I am also surprised and saddened that more people aren't. I don't think that it is any wonder that this profession is in the trouble it is.
PPS
I also think that we'd get along on a personal level. I've been told (believe it or not) that I'm easy to get along with. I have no reason to think that you're not the same way. As such, (except for the occasional scab comment) I have never resorted to personal insults on this board, and I have never stereotyped an entire pilot group.
captainv
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- Oct 16, 2002
- Posts
- 572
FDJ,
on a point you brought up....
>Your mec has actively worked to prevent the hiring of our pilots at your airline.
... technically, i don't think that's true. they're welcome, but at the present time they'd have to give up their senority at Delta, just like every other airline pilot that comes to Comair.
just pointing this out, i'd still like for you to be able to come here without giving it up, and if the tables were turned, i'd go be the fry guy at wendy's for a few years before giving up that number.
just trying to clear the air here...
captainv
on a point you brought up....
>Your mec has actively worked to prevent the hiring of our pilots at your airline.
... technically, i don't think that's true. they're welcome, but at the present time they'd have to give up their senority at Delta, just like every other airline pilot that comes to Comair.
just pointing this out, i'd still like for you to be able to come here without giving it up, and if the tables were turned, i'd go be the fry guy at wendy's for a few years before giving up that number.
just trying to clear the air here...
captainv
FlyDeltasJets
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Captain,
Once they give up their numbers, they are not longer Delta pilots. Therefore, I think my point still stands.
However, I do see your distinction.
I also agree with you that someone would have to be nuts to give up that number. I know I'm not gonna give it up, I worked way too hard to get it!
Once they give up their numbers, they are not longer Delta pilots. Therefore, I think my point still stands.
However, I do see your distinction.
I also agree with you that someone would have to be nuts to give up that number. I know I'm not gonna give it up, I worked way too hard to get it!
trainerjet
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- Mar 21, 2002
- Posts
- 507
skydiverdriver said:
Sounds more like Surplus 1 to me. However, it is somewhat entertaining to listen over and over to the "woe is me" victim wail that is so prevalent on these threads. Yep, it's definitely all the mainline pilots do and think about, especially with all that is currently wrong in the industry today...how to keep the regional pilot down.
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