Republic/Frontier/Midwest SLI Arbitration?

[HDA]

Just to clean up a host of inaccuracies posted by HDA, and then supported by the unhappiest gent on the planet, Animal Tale.

There was a membership vote on establishing a furlough pilot fund. This vote was piggy backing on another vote, LOA 17, that included double digit pay cuts (first year FO's were excluded), downgrades, retirement cuts, and furloughs. No one was surprised when it did not pass. Regardless, FAPA established a voluntary fund, and tens of thousands of dollars were donated.

Sixty pilots were eventually furloughed, many of which actually began ground school AFTER we filed BK. Not one request for medical payment reimbursement was denied. Not one.

There was also a Voluntary Leave of Absence agreement. Over 60 pilots agreed to VLOA's, most of which traveled overseas to fly in Asia and various sandbox carriers. Had these 60 folks not taken VLOA's, another 60 would have been furloughed. The 60 VLOA's that returned from VLOA were senior to the folks that were furloughed, and they returned in seniority order. No one returned out of seniority, and no "back room" deals were struck.

The "SWAPA deal" has been covered ad nausem, and the open-time comment is nonsensical. Neither merit a response.

HDA also claims there was a relationship between first year pay and the DC plan. Again, this is not accurate. The DC Plan was negotiated as part of CBA 2007, in exchange for the ESOP. In retrospect, the gents that negotiated this exchange (one of them has been publicly fleeced on this thread) were geniuses. A year after the ratification of CBA 2007, the ESOP was worthless. Today, the DC plan contains millions of dollars of equity, and is completed funded by the company.

Cardinal's post sums it up perfectly. Sadly, those days are over.

1. Tens of thousand of dollars.....what are you smoking and can I have some? There was an emergency voluntary fund...I will give you that.

2. Not one class started at F9 post BK....every pilot furloughed was on property prior to the BK.

3. Did that VLOA agreement state that they could come back anytime they desired...or was it a two-three year commitment for a VLOA? Im not really sure....but I do know that many came back on property before furloughed pilots did....and before two/three years were up. If they were supposed to be on a contractual length VLOA that was wrong. No pilots were returned out of seniority...I did not allude to that fact. The backroom deals that I refer to had to do with returning furloughees getting assigned MKE or DEN. Of which you know nothing about.

4. Pilots picking up open time and taking JA trips with company pilots on furlough is nonsensical for discussion? Really? How did you enjoy that extra money?

5. ESOP was traded away for the DC plan and first year pay was a bargaining tool. 100% accurate...no doubt about it. Look at the timing....DC plan established with CBA 2007...first year paycut established with CBA 2007. I wont argue that is was a good move...obviously it turned out to be a good swap. Taking first year pay from $54/ hour to $37/ hour shouldnt have been used as a tool. Didnt see captain rates fall did ya? Well, not then anyways. They did in BK and that was admirable....dont think the company could have survived without the pay concessions.

You look at it your way...I will look at it mine. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

Cya.

 

[StaySeated]

1. Tens of thousand of dollars.....what are you smoking and can I have some? There was an emergency voluntary fund...I will give you that.

2. Not one class started at F9 post BK....every pilot furloughed was on property prior to the BK.

3. Did that VLOA agreement state that they could come back anytime they desired...or was it a two-three year commitment for a VLOA? Im not really sure....but I do know that many came back on property before furloughed pilots did....and before two/three years were up. If they were supposed to be on a contractual length VLOA that was wrong. No pilots were returned out of seniority...I did not allude to that fact. The backroom deals that I refer to had to do with returning furloughees getting assigned MKE or DEN. Of which you know nothing about.

4. Pilots picking up open time and taking JA trips with company pilots on furlough is nonsensical for discussion? Really? How did you enjoy that extra money?

5. ESOP was traded away for the DC plan and first year pay was a bargaining tool. 100% accurate...no doubt about it. Look at the timing....DC plan established with CBA 2007...first year paycut established with CBA 2007. I wont argue that is was a good move...obviously it turned out to be a good swap. Taking first year pay from $54/ hour to $37/ hour shouldnt have been used as a tool. Didnt see captain rates fall did ya? Well, not then anyways. They did in BK and that was admirable....dont think the company could have survived without the pay concessions.

You look at it your way...I will look at it mine. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

Cya.

The truth is "probably somewhere in the middle" when dealing with matters of opinion.

In this case, you are just flat out wrong.

1. The furlough pilot fund had approximately $23,000 in December 2008. This from the SecTres at the time. It was also posted on the FAPA board.

2. There was a ground school that began on 4/24/2008.

3. The VLOA's clearly stated that they could return if there was an open vacancy. The furloughees returned to MKE because that was the only domicile with vacancies. No backroom deals, just vacancies being awarded in seniority order.

4. You can't advocate for pilots to stop picking up open time. It is considered an illegal job action. I am not one to pick up extra time, but picking up open time doesn't have a pronounced effect on furloughs/recalls. Take a look at the denver open time pot. If there are 15 open trips on the first three days of the month due to monthly transition, you can't recall 15 pilots to fly one sequence in the month. If there was enough open time to build a complete line of flying, a relief line would have been made. Relief lines are built prior to daily open time going live. If the company builds and awards a relief line, they lose a reserve pilot. If they lose enough reserve pilots, the hire/recall. All of this happens before the 28th of the month, when daily open time begins. Random open time during the month has zero effect on staffing.

5. ESOP was traded away for DC. End of story. Did you attend any of the road shows for CBA 2007? I don't think you were here at the time, but this was all explained very clearly, including the value of each component.

You are 0-5. Regardless, congrats on the new job and the recent airplane order. A new hire at a growing airline is probably better than the bottom of our list, all things considered.

 

[crashpad]

I'd like to give my 2 cents worth with regards to the "seat grabbing" accusation. That's what the union demanded, not what the RAH pilots are collectively stating. These guys seem like a good group as far as commuter pilots go. They've consistently been polite and realistic in my encounters with them and wish them nothing but good things...not at my expense of course.
The best outcome in my opinion....one seniority list, double to triple expansion of airbus fleet, and in-house representation.

 

[Capt. Over]

best outcome?

As far as I know good old Bri-guy has already publicly released the plan to phase out the Airbus with some shiny new Canadairs, thus allowing those Repuke-lic sweetheart fly same size airplanes for millions per hour.

Most of us at the real Midwest have gotten butt raped enough by these clowns...enjoy my cookies in your cute new RJ's. I took my name off of that soon to be joke of a seniority list long ago...no $23 an hour flying "sweet jets" for me.

Oh, and as my buddy Brian would say....God Bless.

 

[Black Sheep]

Originally Posted by StaySeated
There was also a Voluntary Leave of Absence agreement. Over 60 pilots agreed to VLOA's, most of which traveled overseas to fly in Asia and various sandbox carriers. Had these 60 folks not taken VLOA's, another 60 would have been furloughed. The 60 VLOA's that returned from VLOA were senior to the folks that were furloughed, and they returned in seniority order. No one returned out of seniority, and no "back room" deals were struck.

More like 20 went to the sandbox, India and other Asian countries. Your figure is not even close, unless the other 40 got a job within the US (very unlikely). But the interest to take a VLOA was five times as high, had the company not set an unrealistic deadline to "take it or leave it within only a few weeks", there fore not giving interested pilots enough time to find or secure another job. Another deal breaker for many F9 pilots in regard to VLOA were terms such as not a guaranteed recall for six years (vacancy is not a guarantee). Many, many more would have taken a VLOA with more flexible terms and many furloughs could have been avoided. Yet there was no genuine interest by the company to make this happen.

 

[StaySeated]

Originally Posted by StaySeated
There was also a Voluntary Leave of Absence agreement. Over 60 pilots agreed to VLOA's, most of which traveled overseas to fly in Asia and various sandbox carriers. Had these 60 folks not taken VLOA's, another 60 would have been furloughed. The 60 VLOA's that returned from VLOA were senior to the folks that were furloughed, and they returned in seniority order. No one returned out of seniority, and no "back room" deals were struck.

More like 20 went to the sandbox, India and other Asian countries. Your figure is not even close, unless the other 40 got a job within the US (very unlikely). But the interest to take a VLOA was five times as high, had the company not set an unrealistic deadline to "take it or leave it within only a few weeks", there fore not giving interested pilots enough time to find or secure another job. Another deal breaker for many F9 pilots in regard to VLOA were terms such as not a guaranteed recall for six years (vacancy is not a guarantee). Many, many more would have taken a VLOA with more flexible terms and many furloughs could have been avoided. Yet there was no genuine interest by the company to make this happen.

I said 60 VLOA's and 60 Furloughs, but now that you called me out I had to go back and check the actual numbers.....drum roll please....

46 VLOA's and 50 Furloughs. (would you like employee numbers, DOH?)

I was pretty close, and my point was that every single VLOA prevented a furlough, and none of the VLOA's took a vacancy away from a furloughed pilot.

Regarding the rest of your post, I 100% agree. The VLOA language was not perfect, and one gentlemen in management made it a point to block a number of FAPA's furlough mitigation efforts. More than one pilot was forced to resign when this person denied numerous leave requests. Ironically, this same person gave himself a long term "personal leave of absence" so he could accept another job and keep his name on the seniority list "just in case". He recently left the company, but Indianapolis is like some greek mythological creature, when one duplicitous VP leaves, two more take his place.

 

[DeucesWild]

I'd like to give my 2 cents worth with regards to the "seat grabbing" accusation. That's what the union demanded, not what the RAH pilots are collectively stating.

Doesn't the union represent the collective wishes of the RAH pilots??

 

[jacksjj]

Doesn't the union represent the collective wishes of the RAH pilots??

Ideally, yes. Realistically, well - a whole different story.

 

[DeucesWild]

Ideally, yes. Realistically, well - a whole different story.

Well then, it's time for a different union!!

 

[Full of LUV]

I said 60 VLOA's and 60 Furloughs, but now that you called me out I had to go back and check the actual numbers.....drum roll please....

46 VLOA's and 50 Furloughs. (would you like employee numbers, DOH?)

I was pretty close, and my point was that every single VLOA prevented a furlough, and none of the VLOA's took a vacancy away from a furloughed pilot.

Regarding the rest of your post, I 100% agree. The VLOA language was not perfect, and one gentlemen in management made it a point to block a number of FAPA's furlough mitigation efforts. More than one pilot was forced to resign when this person denied numerous leave requests. Ironically, this same person gave himself a long term "personal leave of absence" so he could accept another job and keep his name on the seniority list "just in case". He recently left the company, but Indianapolis is like some greek mythological creature, when one duplicitous VP leaves, two more take his place.

Stay,
Your love and devotion for FAPA and Frontier Airlines is admirable. Keep up the good fight!

 

[Black Sheep]

I said 60 VLOA's and 60 Furloughs, but now that you called me out I had to go back and check the actual numbers.....drum roll please....

46 VLOA's and 50 Furloughs. (would you like employee numbers, DOH?)

I was pretty close, and my point was that every single VLOA prevented a furlough, and none of the VLOA's took a vacancy away from a furloughed pilot.

Regarding the rest of your post, I 100% agree. The VLOA language was not perfect, and one gentlemen in management made it a point to block a number of FAPA's furlough mitigation efforts. More than one pilot was forced to resign when this person denied numerous leave requests. Ironically, this same person gave himself a long term "personal leave of absence" so he could accept another job and keep his name on the seniority list "just in case". He recently left the company, but Indianapolis is like some greek mythological creature, when one duplicitous VP leaves, two more take his place.

Don't need their names or DOH, SSN will be just fine ... (kidding).

At the end the numbers do not matter, my intention was to highlight the fact that the VLOA thing was not as smooth as it might have sounded and thanks to the hypocrite you mentioned some people had to resign and more folks got furloughed. Not sure if there was any thing more FAPA could have done, but it really does not matter any more.

Thanks for clarifying and setting the record straight.

 

[HDA]

The truth is "probably somewhere in the middle" when dealing with matters of opinion.

In this case, you are just flat out wrong.

1. The furlough pilot fund had approximately $23,000 in December 2008. This from the SecTres at the time. It was also posted on the FAPA board.

2. There was a ground school that began on 4/24/2008.

3. The VLOA's clearly stated that they could return if there was an open vacancy. The furloughees returned to MKE because that was the only domicile with vacancies. No backroom deals, just vacancies being awarded in seniority order.

4. You can't advocate for pilots to stop picking up open time. It is considered an illegal job action. I am not one to pick up extra time, but picking up open time doesn't have a pronounced effect on furloughs/recalls. Take a look at the denver open time pot. If there are 15 open trips on the first three days of the month due to monthly transition, you can't recall 15 pilots to fly one sequence in the month. If there was enough open time to build a complete line of flying, a relief line would have been made. Relief lines are built prior to daily open time going live. If the company builds and awards a relief line, they lose a reserve pilot. If they lose enough reserve pilots, the hire/recall. All of this happens before the 28th of the month, when daily open time begins. Random open time during the month has zero effect on staffing.

5. ESOP was traded away for DC. End of story. Did you attend any of the road shows for CBA 2007? I don't think you were here at the time, but this was all explained very clearly, including the value of each component.

You are 0-5. Regardless, congrats on the new job and the recent airplane order. A new hire at a growing airline is probably better than the bottom of our list, all things considered.

Ok. You are right. There was money in the fund (where did it go once everyone came back?), there was a class that started post BK (6 pilots? Dont need names and DOH thanks), VLOAs could come back to an open vacancy, and open time makes no difference. Got it.

I still believe it is wrong to accept or volunteer for Junior Assignments when there are pilots out on furlough. You will never convince me that the first year pilot pay was not a pawn in the DC deal.

Thanks for the congrat..Being a new hire at a growing airline is much better that being at the bottom of Frontiers list. When the arbitrators decision finally is made public im betting that will be painfully obvious. Dont get me wrong...I wish no ill will. Frontier pilots are a great group and I have good friends in both the left and right seats there. It is a sad thing to see it all sliding downhill.

Good job in setting me straight.

 

[CrownandCoke]

This is completely false. The reference to seniority grabbing by the "regional pilots" may be because you feel superior to us, but whatever the reason it is out of our hands. Relax and stop trying to stir the pot. The "seat grab", as you call it, is completely fictional. I know ZERO RAH pilots that have said anything about flying a 'bus. Maybe you have, but every group has their small minority. I assure you, that is ours. The overwhelming majority of us, while speaking freely behind the closed doors of the flight deck, think you could not have been dealt any worse of a blow to your career. This place SUCKS, and Airbuses or not - we are leaving in droves. As a matter of fact, more pilots have left in the past 3 months than the last 3 years.

What you should be focusing on is the impending fight you have on your hands with management, not the pilot group. We have been through the ringer with these cronies, we know what we face, and we know that standing together is the only chance we possibly have to make any headway. The longer you stand reluctant to join us, the stronger WH and BB become.

Various friends of mine still at Lynx have overheard RAH guys on the jumpseat or on the crew bus spewing how angry they are at management; yet they will also say they can't wait until they are going to be flying the Airbus. There's also some FO's in Denver that have said they refuse to upgrade until their senority allows them to hold Denver. This is the group of pilots that makes up RAH. Pilots that don't care they put Lynx guys or Midwest guys on the street. Or care if they put Frontier guys on the street. It's just sad.

I was offered a preferential hiring with Republic and I turned it down. Bartending and reffing hockey is much more appealing to me.

 

[sshrae]

I think those rah pilots who feel they deserve or cant wait to fly the airbus should apply at virgin america. You have a lot better shot at doing it there than at f9 for the foreseeable future.

 

[embraerjetpilot]

Crown and Coke... I highly doubt what youve heard is true... I have heard of two people saying that and they are on the nonbranded side and pretty arrogant.

stop trying to stir the pot..its already been stirred.

The sooner we all realize that the real enemy is bedford and not ourselves the better off we will be.