Republic/Frontier/Midwest SLI Arbitration?

[USMC319]

Cardinal was accurate in describing the F9 culture up through bankruptcy in April of 2008. I doubt there was an airline out there that could compare more favorably than Frontier on most levels. It was just a great place to work and evrybody was happy and proud to be there. I was even more impressed with our pilot group during BK when everyone on property stepped it up to save the airline. All hands on deck, and we succeeded when the experts said we would be long gone.

Post BK, RAH (Bedford) promised that we would be a stand alone airline and that we would continue to be "Frontier". To continue to build something that was pretty special in this otherwise whacked industry. Where the trouble and hence decline of the culture began was when the regional pilots of the other RAH subsidiaries tried (are trying) to do a seniority/seat grab from the Frontier pilots. By the account of some rumors, they may have some success in doing so and the decline will hasten. The only chance the Frontier culture has a chance in being restored is if either the mainline is sold off to another mainline carrier with similar culture or if the NMB determines that Frontier is in fact NOT a single transportation system with the RAH regionals.

So, thats why many of the F9 pilots think, retrospectively, that even the hose job that SWAPA offered us might be better than the doublecrossing that they are experiencing now at the hands of the RAH group.

 

[StaySeated]

Just to clean up a host of inaccuracies posted by HDA, and then supported by the unhappiest gent on the planet, Animal Tale.

There was a membership vote on establishing a furlough pilot fund. This vote was piggy backing on another vote, LOA 17, that included double digit pay cuts (first year FO's were excluded), downgrades, retirement cuts, and furloughs. No one was surprised when it did not pass. Regardless, FAPA established a voluntary fund, and tens of thousands of dollars were donated.

Sixty pilots were eventually furloughed, many of which actually began ground school AFTER we filed BK. Not one request for medical payment reimbursement was denied. Not one.

There was also a Voluntary Leave of Absence agreement. Over 60 pilots agreed to VLOA's, most of which traveled overseas to fly in Asia and various sandbox carriers. Had these 60 folks not taken VLOA's, another 60 would have been furloughed. The 60 VLOA's that returned from VLOA were senior to the folks that were furloughed, and they returned in seniority order. No one returned out of seniority, and no "back room" deals were struck.

The "SWAPA deal" has been covered ad nausem, and the open-time comment is nonsensical. Neither merit a response.

HDA also claims there was a relationship between first year pay and the DC plan. Again, this is not accurate. The DC Plan was negotiated as part of CBA 2007, in exchange for the ESOP. In retrospect, the gents that negotiated this exchange (one of them has been publicly fleeced on this thread) were geniuses. A year after the ratification of CBA 2007, the ESOP was worthless. Today, the DC plan contains millions of dollars of equity, and is completed funded by the company.

Cardinal's post sums it up perfectly. Sadly, those days are over.

 

[jacksjj]

when the regional pilots of the other RAH subsidiaries tried (are trying) to do a seniority/seat grab from the Frontier pilots.

This is completely false. The reference to seniority grabbing by the "regional pilots" may be because you feel superior to us, but whatever the reason it is out of our hands. Relax and stop trying to stir the pot. The "seat grab", as you call it, is completely fictional. I know ZERO RAH pilots that have said anything about flying a 'bus. Maybe you have, but every group has their small minority. I assure you, that is ours. The overwhelming majority of us, while speaking freely behind the closed doors of the flight deck, think you could not have been dealt any worse of a blow to your career. This place SUCKS, and Airbuses or not - we are leaving in droves. As a matter of fact, more pilots have left in the past 3 months than the last 3 years.

What you should be focusing on is the impending fight you have on your hands with management, not the pilot group. We have been through the ringer with these cronies, we know what we face, and we know that standing together is the only chance we possibly have to make any headway. The longer you stand reluctant to join us, the stronger WH and BB become.

 

[chqflyer]

This is completely false. The reference to seniority grabbing by the "regional pilots" may be because you feel superior to us, but whatever the reason it is out of our hands. Relax and stop trying to stir the pot. The "seat grab", as you call it, is completely fictional. I know ZERO RAH pilots that have said anything about flying a 'bus. Maybe you have, but every group has their small minority. I assure you, that is ours. The overwhelming majority of us, while speaking freely behind the closed doors of the flight deck, think you could not have been dealt any worse of a blow to your career. This place SUCKS, and Airbuses or not - we are leaving in droves. As a matter of fact, more pilots have left in the past 3 months than the last 3 years.
.

Don't ya think the IBT demanding the top 300 seniority spots and sticking our left seat occupants into the F9 captain list was a bit outlandish? That's about as brazen a seniority grab as you can get. We are regional pilots, NOT equals to mainline pilots. Try jumpseating on a few mainline flights and just observe the huge difference.

 

[The Drizzle]

Don't ya think the IBT demanding the top 300 seniority spots and sticking our left seat occupants into the F9 captain list was a bit outlandish? That's about as brazen a seniority grab as you can get. We are regional pilots, NOT equals to mainline pilots. Try jumpseating on a few mainline flights and just observe the huge difference.

I think you should seek professional help for your self-esteem problem. That said, the top 300 isn't about Airbus seats it's about protection from job loss as this place sinks faster than the Bismark. Remember who acquired who.

 

[Bolo]

Does the acquisition gives you the right to jump into the Airbus seats?
Just look at your Avatar and there is your answer!
Last time I looked around our pilot group not one pilot wants to go over to any of the RJ's.

 

[The Drizzle]

Does the acquisition gives you the right to jump into the Airbus seats?
Just look at your Avatar and there is your answer!
Last time I looked around our pilot group not one pilot wants to go over to any of the RJ's.

Nobody is jumping anywhere but off this ship. Do you really think the arbitrator is going to just dump the senior RAH daddies into the bus? Get real. Most of what is posted is hyperbole other than how badly BB and co treat their employees. It won't last long, I'd imagine. RAH likely can't afford to train replacements once that loud sucking sound gets going. They'll shrink to profitability! That always works.

I'll edit too bolo: Precedent usually has the acquiring party seeing some sort of windfall regardless of what the spirit of the law is. We aren't greedily grabbing for your seats, we are trying to defend whats left of a tattered and raped contract. Ours says anything owned by RAH gets flown by our list. I expect you to fight as hard for what's in your contract until we have a joint agreement.

Also, I love to poke fun around here too but going for a lame jab at my avatar doesn't do much for you or your case as a superior being.

 

[Bolo]

One thing we do agree on is the lame Avatar. In my eyes inappropriate to say the least!

 

[The Drizzle]

For what it's worth, I AM sorry that you guys are caught up in all this. Being snapped up by BB and friends is the kiss of death for any kind of positive workplace culture.

What you call a seat grab, again, is our last defense. I think BB might have actually thought we'd have a good case on the scope violation or he'd never have gone against his word to keep you separate. The FFD is still a predictable cash cow and he must be very wary to put it in danger.

What do I know though, I'm just a pilot.

 

[Bolo]

At the end of the day it does not matter what you and I think. Arbitrator, STS, fence all will have to happen before anything is implemented.

 

[The Drizzle]

At the end of the day it does not matter what you and I think. Arbitrator, STS, fence all will have to happen before anything is implemented.

Exactly.

 

[chqflyer]

I think you should seek professional help for your self-esteem problem. That said, the top 300 isn't about Airbus seats it's about protection from job loss as this place sinks faster than the Bismark. Remember who acquired who.

My self esteem is just fine Rambo. Thanks for your concern. My comment was referring to the difference in the level of professionalism between regionals and mainlines. I'm not going to feed the trolls by bringing up specifics on a public board.

 

[Lear70]

Drizzle, watch the racism. Anti-Jewish comments are just as bad as making comments about people who are black, hispanic, indian, or any other race, creed, or religion, and it's specifically against the ToS.

Thanks,

/mod

 

[The Drizzle]

Drizzle, watch the racism. Anti-Jewish comments are just as bad as making comments about people who are black, hispanic, indian, or any other race, creed, or religion, and it's specifically against the ToS.

Thanks,

/mod

It was meant to be ridiculous, I'm surprised it took you that long.

 

[Lear70]

I don't watch all the threads, don't have that kind of time, we rely on reports from other members before we'll pick up on most things...

As far as the actual comment, I'm 1/4 Jewish and wasn't offended, but someone obviously was, and it's against the ToS, so try to keep the comedy away from ToS violations, thanks.

 

[HDA]

Just to clean up a host of inaccuracies posted by HDA, and then supported by the unhappiest gent on the planet, Animal Tale.

There was a membership vote on establishing a furlough pilot fund. This vote was piggy backing on another vote, LOA 17, that included double digit pay cuts (first year FO's were excluded), downgrades, retirement cuts, and furloughs. No one was surprised when it did not pass. Regardless, FAPA established a voluntary fund, and tens of thousands of dollars were donated.

Sixty pilots were eventually furloughed, many of which actually began ground school AFTER we filed BK. Not one request for medical payment reimbursement was denied. Not one.

There was also a Voluntary Leave of Absence agreement. Over 60 pilots agreed to VLOA's, most of which traveled overseas to fly in Asia and various sandbox carriers. Had these 60 folks not taken VLOA's, another 60 would have been furloughed. The 60 VLOA's that returned from VLOA were senior to the folks that were furloughed, and they returned in seniority order. No one returned out of seniority, and no "back room" deals were struck.

The "SWAPA deal" has been covered ad nausem, and the open-time comment is nonsensical. Neither merit a response.

HDA also claims there was a relationship between first year pay and the DC plan. Again, this is not accurate. The DC Plan was negotiated as part of CBA 2007, in exchange for the ESOP. In retrospect, the gents that negotiated this exchange (one of them has been publicly fleeced on this thread) were geniuses. A year after the ratification of CBA 2007, the ESOP was worthless. Today, the DC plan contains millions of dollars of equity, and is completed funded by the company.

Cardinal's post sums it up perfectly. Sadly, those days are over.

1. Tens of thousand of dollars.....what are you smoking and can I have some? There was an emergency voluntary fund...I will give you that.

2. Not one class started at F9 post BK....every pilot furloughed was on property prior to the BK.

3. Did that VLOA agreement state that they could come back anytime they desired...or was it a two-three year commitment for a VLOA? Im not really sure....but I do know that many came back on property before furloughed pilots did....and before two/three years were up. If they were supposed to be on a contractual length VLOA that was wrong. No pilots were returned out of seniority...I did not allude to that fact. The backroom deals that I refer to had to do with returning furloughees getting assigned MKE or DEN. Of which you know nothing about.

4. Pilots picking up open time and taking JA trips with company pilots on furlough is nonsensical for discussion? Really? How did you enjoy that extra money?

5. ESOP was traded away for the DC plan and first year pay was a bargaining tool. 100% accurate...no doubt about it. Look at the timing....DC plan established with CBA 2007...first year paycut established with CBA 2007. I wont argue that is was a good move...obviously it turned out to be a good swap. Taking first year pay from $54/ hour to $37/ hour shouldnt have been used as a tool. Didnt see captain rates fall did ya? Well, not then anyways. They did in BK and that was admirable....dont think the company could have survived without the pay concessions.

You look at it your way...I will look at it mine. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

Cya.

 

[StaySeated]

1. Tens of thousand of dollars.....what are you smoking and can I have some? There was an emergency voluntary fund...I will give you that.

2. Not one class started at F9 post BK....every pilot furloughed was on property prior to the BK.

3. Did that VLOA agreement state that they could come back anytime they desired...or was it a two-three year commitment for a VLOA? Im not really sure....but I do know that many came back on property before furloughed pilots did....and before two/three years were up. If they were supposed to be on a contractual length VLOA that was wrong. No pilots were returned out of seniority...I did not allude to that fact. The backroom deals that I refer to had to do with returning furloughees getting assigned MKE or DEN. Of which you know nothing about.

4. Pilots picking up open time and taking JA trips with company pilots on furlough is nonsensical for discussion? Really? How did you enjoy that extra money?

5. ESOP was traded away for the DC plan and first year pay was a bargaining tool. 100% accurate...no doubt about it. Look at the timing....DC plan established with CBA 2007...first year paycut established with CBA 2007. I wont argue that is was a good move...obviously it turned out to be a good swap. Taking first year pay from $54/ hour to $37/ hour shouldnt have been used as a tool. Didnt see captain rates fall did ya? Well, not then anyways. They did in BK and that was admirable....dont think the company could have survived without the pay concessions.

You look at it your way...I will look at it mine. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

Cya.

The truth is "probably somewhere in the middle" when dealing with matters of opinion.

In this case, you are just flat out wrong.

1. The furlough pilot fund had approximately $23,000 in December 2008. This from the SecTres at the time. It was also posted on the FAPA board.

2. There was a ground school that began on 4/24/2008.

3. The VLOA's clearly stated that they could return if there was an open vacancy. The furloughees returned to MKE because that was the only domicile with vacancies. No backroom deals, just vacancies being awarded in seniority order.

4. You can't advocate for pilots to stop picking up open time. It is considered an illegal job action. I am not one to pick up extra time, but picking up open time doesn't have a pronounced effect on furloughs/recalls. Take a look at the denver open time pot. If there are 15 open trips on the first three days of the month due to monthly transition, you can't recall 15 pilots to fly one sequence in the month. If there was enough open time to build a complete line of flying, a relief line would have been made. Relief lines are built prior to daily open time going live. If the company builds and awards a relief line, they lose a reserve pilot. If they lose enough reserve pilots, the hire/recall. All of this happens before the 28th of the month, when daily open time begins. Random open time during the month has zero effect on staffing.

5. ESOP was traded away for DC. End of story. Did you attend any of the road shows for CBA 2007? I don't think you were here at the time, but this was all explained very clearly, including the value of each component.

You are 0-5. Regardless, congrats on the new job and the recent airplane order. A new hire at a growing airline is probably better than the bottom of our list, all things considered.

 

[crashpad]

I'd like to give my 2 cents worth with regards to the "seat grabbing" accusation. That's what the union demanded, not what the RAH pilots are collectively stating. These guys seem like a good group as far as commuter pilots go. They've consistently been polite and realistic in my encounters with them and wish them nothing but good things...not at my expense of course.
The best outcome in my opinion....one seniority list, double to triple expansion of airbus fleet, and in-house representation.

 

[Capt. Over]

best outcome?

As far as I know good old Bri-guy has already publicly released the plan to phase out the Airbus with some shiny new Canadairs, thus allowing those Repuke-lic sweetheart fly same size airplanes for millions per hour.

Most of us at the real Midwest have gotten butt raped enough by these clowns...enjoy my cookies in your cute new RJ's. I took my name off of that soon to be joke of a seniority list long ago...no $23 an hour flying "sweet jets" for me.

Oh, and as my buddy Brian would say....God Bless.

 

[Black Sheep]

Originally Posted by StaySeated
There was also a Voluntary Leave of Absence agreement. Over 60 pilots agreed to VLOA's, most of which traveled overseas to fly in Asia and various sandbox carriers. Had these 60 folks not taken VLOA's, another 60 would have been furloughed. The 60 VLOA's that returned from VLOA were senior to the folks that were furloughed, and they returned in seniority order. No one returned out of seniority, and no "back room" deals were struck.

More like 20 went to the sandbox, India and other Asian countries. Your figure is not even close, unless the other 40 got a job within the US (very unlikely). But the interest to take a VLOA was five times as high, had the company not set an unrealistic deadline to "take it or leave it within only a few weeks", there fore not giving interested pilots enough time to find or secure another job. Another deal breaker for many F9 pilots in regard to VLOA were terms such as not a guaranteed recall for six years (vacancy is not a guarantee). Many, many more would have taken a VLOA with more flexible terms and many furloughs could have been avoided. Yet there was no genuine interest by the company to make this happen.