Republic/Frontier/Midwest SLI Arbitration?

[AnimalTale]

Funny. Incorrect and deluded, but funny. Your view of the truth hasn't gotten any better since you left. Why don't you focus on your new company and let adults bicker in peace.

Why dont you follow, you know who, to Westjet. Im sure they can use a company man over there too.

I am trying to concentrate on RAH. And more importantly, I am trying to concentrate on why? Last I heard is that you are trying to get out yourself.

We can go back and forth all day long. In the end you are too arrogant to admit that YOU MESSED UP. Your decision and sales job/coverup has ruined, in the long run, a beautiful airline.

You are smart and working on another career. You will bolt, guys like me are stuck working for a commuter airline.

Thanks,

CYA

 

[N1atEcon]

Don't worry about it Animal Tail. There are a lot of people who didn't buy the sack of $hit FAPA was selling. Now it is smeared all over their feet and where is FAPA to wipe it off you ask? In their Airbuses (left seat) for now.....

P.S

We can go back and forth all day long. In the end you are too arrogant to admit that YOU MESSED UP. Your decision and sales job/coverup has ruined, in the long run, a beautiful airline.

You got that right!

 

[F9 Driver]

Why dont you follow, you know who, to Westjet. Im sure they can use a company man over there too.

I am trying to concentrate on RAH. And more importantly, I am trying to concentrate on why? Last I heard is that you are trying to get out yourself.

We can go back and forth all day long. In the end you are too arrogant to admit that YOU MESSED UP. Your decision and sales job/coverup has ruined, in the long run, a beautiful airline.

You are smart and working on another career. You will bolt, guys like me are stuck working for a commuter airline.

Thanks,

CYA

Wowzer - You went from being just one of the loud unreasonable ones to a full blown crank in one fell swoop.

You can't seem to leave your ex-airline alone. You posted on the FAPA board as recently as Friday about how great your insurance is at Delta after having departed Frontier months ago. That got your access, which should have ended when you quit, pulled.

"You will never admit it but I know..."

Your conspiracy theories about union / management back door deals, like all the other Birther/ Truther / Chemtrail freak theories, fall apart. Not because the evidence of their existence is so carefully hidden, but because they are false.

I'm still waiting to hear what choice FAPA made that has brought Frontier to its demise. (Demise = continued employment, the return of all furloughs, four pay raises in 2011, and the prospect of growth.) What could FAPA have done to keep Republic from winning the auction? Even if leadership wanted to accept a staple & furlough there would have had to be a membership vote - which would have been impossible given SWAPA's time constraints, wouldn't have passed by any stretch of your feeble imagination, and still would have resulted in Republic winning the auction.

I know I'm pushing up a rope trying to have a rational discussion with you and eagerly await your -caps lock- tirade in response, but you don't work for Frontier any more and wish you would just enjoy your new life quitely. I'm done.

 

[StaySeated]

Don't worry about it Animal Tail. There are a lot of people who didn't buy the sack of $hit FAPA was selling. Now it is smeared all over their feet and where is FAPA to wipe it off you ask? In their Airbuses (left seat) for now.....

P.S
You got that right!

Why dont you follow, you know who, to Westjet. Im sure they can use a company man over there too.

I am trying to concentrate on RAH. And more importantly, I am trying to concentrate on why? Last I heard is that you are trying to get out yourself.

We can go back and forth all day long. In the end you are too arrogant to admit that YOU MESSED UP. Your decision and sales job/coverup has ruined, in the long run, a beautiful airline.

You are smart and working on another career. You will bolt, guys like me are stuck working for a commuter airline.

Thanks,

CYA

Maybe you two can start your own thread. You can title it "Really Angry, but even more clueless".

I am not sure what you could possibly be implying with your "sales job" comment. Your reference to a single "decision" is also incomprehensible.

Frontier Holdings was in Chapter 11 restructuring. There were more than 4,580 unsecured claims, ranging from $0 to over $100,000,000. Are you implying that FAPA conspired with thousands of people that were owed money, along with the Unsecured Creditor's Committee, to somehow harm you? Do you have any knowledge base or understanding of how the Ch. 11 process works, who makes the decisions on behalf of the debtor, and the primary motivator for those decisions?

All of the BK documents are available online. Maybe you should take a moment to educate yourself before you listen to a "buddy" that was supposedly "in the know".

Animal Tail is rambling about a "decision". To what are you referring? I can only assume it is SWA/SWAPA. Or are you talking about Perseus? You do remember the first DIP offer, don't you? Where would we be today if that PE firm purchased Frontier Holdings before the "Group DIP" was approved by the UCC? Wait, if FAPA had unilateral control of the BK outcome, surely they should receive total and complete credit for avoiding the Perseus offer. Unfortunately, that logic doesn't add up to support your conspiracy theories.

What about the Perseus DIP loan? The Group DIP? The Amended DIP? The Exit DIP? Did FAPA "decide" the outcome of those events? If so, how?

Persues has zero airline management experience, and Frontier was not going to be their first attempt at running an airline. They were going to provide a short term $40 MM loan in exchange for more than $100 million in remaining equity in parts, spare engines, and aircraft. Simply put, it was going to be a fire sale, and we all would have been out of a job.

The Unsecured Creditors Committee recognized this and looked for DIP financing elsewhere. The UCC realized that they would get more money on their claims if a different party stepped up and actually operated the airline instead of liquidated the assets. Their goal was an auction of a viable airline, not the firesale of a few assets. If there was going to be a firesale, they were going to hold it, not Perseus. Bedford and RAH also saw an opportunity. RAH was the largest Unsecured Creditor (this could be debated, and was by UBS due to the $300MM in debt instruments that disappeared). As the largest unsecured creditor they had the most to lose from the Perseus deal.

Shortly after the Perseus offer, the "Group DIP" was put on the table. RAH, Credit Suisse, AQR, CNH, and a few other small players provided an alternative to Perseus. The UCC opted for door number two, and we had enough cash to survive the winter. Is this "the decision"?

The initial DIP was only a bandaid, as it required repayment in full by April 2009.

We did survive the winter, but found ourselves in the exact same position entering the spring.

With default on the initial loan looming, RAH stepped up and offered an "Amended DIP" package. The UCC accepted this loan as it "extended the runway" (just threw up a little typing that, in fact if I ever hear it again I will break something), increasing the chance that someone would provide the needed and looming next step, exit financing to the tune of $150 MM or more. Maybe this is "the decision"? The Amended DIP also immediately put RAH in a position to acquire the entire operation.

All of these financing packages were approved by the Unsecured Creditors Committees. The UCC also hired their own legal representation Davis Polk and Wardell. The UCC also hired their own financial analyst, Seabury. Both of these third parties billed Frontier Holdings over $20 MM, and this $20MM further diluted the UCC's share of the final repayment. However, following your logic, the UCC willingly paid expert third parties over $20MM in fees, but they disregarded their advice, wasted the money, and listened solely to FAPA, and their "decision"?

All of this occurred over an incredibly busy 18 month period. Literally thousands of pages of transcripts capture the facts. Unfortunately you choose to focus on four hours of discussion between FAPA and SWAPA.

My point here should be rather obvious (but then again, maybe not considering the folks involved in this thread). There were much larger players involved than FAPA. Thankfully, FAPA was successful in achieving a seat at the UCC table, something the other two Frontier Airlines labor groups (IBT and UTU) tried to do but were denied. We thankfully did have a first hand account of the proceedings and a limited say in some UCC decisions, but there was much more to our journey through BK then you seem willing to admit or capable to understand.

I am not sure if either one of you actually work here, but I am pretty sure that neither of you have exerted one minute of your time working towards the solution of several very serious and difficult problems.

Did either one of you volunteer on any of the committees that worked thousands of hours for the benefit of the membership?

There have been three FAPA elections since 2008. Have either one of you stepped up, been nominated, accepted the nomination, and then laid it all on the line in an effort to improve things for the pilot group?

I am pretty sure the answer to all of the above is "No".

You can continue to criticize if you are unhappy with the result of the BK auction, but you should probably identify what exactly transpired before you start slandering the very folks that are working tirelessly on your behalf, and have been for quite some time.

 

[AnimalTale]

Maybe you two can start your own thread. You can title it "Really Angry, but even more clueless".

I am not sure what you could possibly be implying with your "sales job" comment. Your reference to a single "decision" is also incomprehensible.

Frontier Holdings was in Chapter 11 restructuring. There were more than 4,580 unsecured claims, ranging from $0 to over $100,000,000. Are you implying that FAPA conspired with thousands of people that were owed money, along with the Unsecured Creditor's Committee, to somehow harm you? Do you have any knowledge base or understanding of how the Ch. 11 process works, who makes the decisions on behalf of the debtor, and the primary motivator for those decisions?

All of the BK documents are available online. Maybe you should take a moment to educate yourself before you listen to a "buddy" that was supposedly "in the know".

Animal Tail is rambling about a "decision". To what are you referring? I can only assume it is SWA/SWAPA. Or are you talking about Perseus? You do remember the first DIP offer, don't you? Where would we be today if that PE firm purchased Frontier Holdings before the "Group DIP" was approved by the UCC? Wait, if FAPA had unilateral control of the BK outcome, surely they should receive total and complete credit for avoiding the Perseus offer. Unfortunately, that logic doesn't add up to support your conspiracy theories.

What about the Perseus DIP loan? The Group DIP? The Amended DIP? The Exit DIP? Did FAPA "decide" the outcome of those events? If so, how?

Persues has zero airline management experience, and Frontier was not going to be their first attempt at running an airline. They were going to provide a short term $40 MM loan in exchange for more than $100 million in remaining equity in parts, spare engines, and aircraft. Simply put, it was going to be a fire sale, and we all would have been out of a job.

The Unsecured Creditors Committee recognized this and looked for DIP financing elsewhere. The UCC realized that they would get more money on their claims if a different party stepped up and actually operated the airline instead of liquidated the assets. Their goal was an auction of a viable airline, not the firesale of a few assets. If there was going to be a firesale, they were going to hold it, not Perseus. Bedford and RAH also saw an opportunity. RAH was the largest Unsecured Creditor (this could be debated, and was by UBS due to the $300MM in debt instruments that disappeared). As the largest unsecured creditor they had the most to lose from the Perseus deal.

Shortly after the Perseus offer, the "Group DIP" was put on the table. RAH, Credit Suisse, AQR, CNH, and a few other small players provided an alternative to Perseus. The UCC opted for door number two, and we had enough cash to survive the winter. Is this "the decision"?

The initial DIP was only a bandaid, as it required repayment in full by April 2009.

We did survive the winter, but found ourselves in the exact same position entering the spring.

With default on the initial loan looming, RAH stepped up and offered an "Amended DIP" package. The UCC accepted this loan as it "extended the runway" (just threw up a little typing that, in fact if I ever hear it again I will break something), increasing the chance that someone would provide the needed and looming next step, exit financing to the tune of $150 MM or more. Maybe this is "the decision"? The Amended DIP also immediately put RAH in a position to acquire the entire operation.

All of these financing packages were approved by the Unsecured Creditors Committees. The UCC also hired their own legal representation Davis Polk and Wardell. The UCC also hired their own financial analyst, Seabury. Both of these third parties billed Frontier Holdings over $20 MM, and this $20MM further diluted the UCC's share of the final repayment. However, following your logic, the UCC willingly paid expert third parties over $20MM in fees, but they disregarded their advice, wasted the money, and listened solely to FAPA, and their "decision"?

All of this occurred over an incredibly busy 18 month period. Literally thousands of pages of transcripts capture the facts. Unfortunately you choose to focus on four hours of discussion between FAPA and SWAPA.

My point here should be rather obvious (but then again, maybe not considering the folks involved in this thread). There were much larger players involved than FAPA. Thankfully, FAPA was successful in achieving a seat at the UCC table, something the other two Frontier Airlines labor groups (IBT and UTU) tried to do but were denied. We thankfully did have a first hand account of the proceedings and a limited say in some UCC decisions, but there was much more to our journey through BK then you seem willing to admit or capable to understand.

I am not sure if either one of you actually work here, but I am pretty sure that neither of you have exerted one minute of your time working towards the solution of several very serious and difficult problems.

Did either one of you volunteer on any of the committees that worked thousands of hours for the benefit of the membership?

There have been three FAPA elections since 2008. Have either one of you stepped up, been nominated, accepted the nomination, and then laid it all on the line in an effort to improve things for the pilot group?

I am pretty sure the answer to all of the above is "No".

You can continue to criticize if you are unhappy with the result of the BK auction, but you should probably identify what exactly transpired before you start slandering the very folks that are working tirelessly on your behalf, and have been for quite some time.

Thank you for the explanation and the time to write it out, I am very familiar with the process and also very familiar that we had no running mates for FAPA president for two terms, thus the mess we are in. We are all employed thats what counts, but it should have been better. I feel our Leaders tried to represent EVERYBODY AT FRONTIER, instead of the paying pilots. Thats my beef. I feel like there is no division between management and union, especially when our Union boss has holiday parties at his house catered for our VP of ops..Thing sometimes dont add up. Anyhow, SS you are very sound and reasonable.

Wowzer - You went from being just one of the loud unreasonable ones to a full blown crank in one fell swoop.

You can't seem to leave your ex-airline alone. You posted on the FAPA board as recently as Friday about how great your insurance is at Delta after having departed Frontier months ago. That got your access, which should have ended when you quit, pulled.

"You will never admit it but I know..."

Your conspiracy theories about union / management back door deals, like all the other Birther/ Truther / Chemtrail freak theories, fall apart. Not because the evidence of their existence is so carefully hidden, but because they are false.

I'm still waiting to hear what choice FAPA made that has brought Frontier to its demise. (Demise = continued employment, the return of all furloughs, four pay raises in 2011, and the prospect of growth.) What could FAPA have done to keep Republic from winning the auction? Even if leadership wanted to accept a staple & furlough there would have had to be a membership vote - which would have been impossible given SWAPA's time constraints, wouldn't have passed by any stretch of your feeble imagination, and still would have resulted in Republic winning the auction.

I know I'm pushing up a rope trying to have a rational discussion with you and eagerly await your -caps lock- tirade in response, but you don't work for Frontier any more and wish you would just enjoy your new life quitely. I'm done.

You on the other hand are becoming paranoid, delusional and untruthful. Stop making things up for the sake of SHOCK. Your arrogance is very evident, think of what you are saying. You can put me on your ignore list if you dont like my posts.

Good Day and CYA!

 

[GuppyWN]

We will never know whether Gary would have raised his bid because Stemler stonewalled SWAPA on that Thursday and didn't return at least 4 phone calls to attempt a negotiation.

I guess the parties were strung out between Denver, Dallas and DC but from what we were told there wasn't much of an effort on FAPA's part.

Gup

Gup

 

[StaySeated]

We will never know whether Gary would have raised his bid because Stemler stonewalled SWAPA on that Thursday and didn't return at least 4 phone calls to attempt a negotiation.

I guess the parties were strung out between Denver, Dallas and DC but from what we were told there wasn't much of an effort on FAPA's part.

Gup

Gup

Hey Gup, thanks for visiting yet another F9 thread. I realize that you have been told this story and you believe it to be true. I understand. With that being said, do you have any idea how many folks were in the FAPA office the day after the web-conference? There were several, and the phone didn't ring. I imagine if the President couldn't be reached on his cell, one would try the office. Or perhaps one of the other folks that participated in the web-conference? Maybe even an email as a last resort? I told you before, there wasn't a "stonewall". There were no calls from Karl or anyone from SWAPA, period.


I actually wish one of these discontents would sue FAPA for DFR and everything from the phone records to the web-conference would become public record.

Regardless, you will believe what you want to believe and that is just fine. I genuinely wish SWAPA and Airtran ALPA the best in their own SLI, I hope that it works out well for all involved.

 

[GuppyWN]

Trying to stay neutral!

Are you saying there was a good faith attempt by FAPA to negotiate? If so then what was your first offer? What was your final offer?

If, as you say is the case, you weren't getting phone calls from SWAPA then why didn't YOU call?

I think the whole thing stinks and I've stated so many times. I would have loved to have the Frontier AND the Lynx pilots on our list.

Good luck with your SLI as well. Don't care whose fault it is you should have been SWA pilots.

Gup

Gup

 

[USMC319]

I think the whole thing stinks and I've stated so many times. I would have loved to have the Frontier AND the Lynx pilots on our list.
Good luck with your SLI as well. Don't care whose fault it is you should have been SWA pilots.
Gup
Gup

Gup,
As much as I thought a "staple job" at SWA would blow, and would have preferred to remain an independant airline with financially sound ownership, in retrospect I agree with you and wish we could have come together. I think our (WN-F9) cultures are much more similar than the ones we (WN-FL vs F9-RAH) are respectively trying to cobble together now.

 

[N1atEcon]

I too would love to see FAPA's phone records. SWAPA put out a time line of all the events that took place and gave it to it's membership. After the insane intro by FAPA (lifetime furlough pay,domicle rights, lifetime medical, ect. ROFL) communication was non existant. SWAPA had it's team all waiting in a room to hammer out some details but FAPA was unreachable. The FAPA team never wanted LUV/F9 deal in the first place because they thought they would be yanking gear in an 300 the rest of their lives.