Republic/Frontier/Midwest SLI Arbitration?

[colorado14hi]

Are you sure this will be the scenario?

 

[SkywayFO]

If I knew for sure how everything would work out I would be a rich man. I'm just pointing out some of the contract issues and possible things that could happen. At a minimum this situation of 2 operations would be a managment wet dream, the whipsaw. Not good for any of us.

 

[fracpt]

I know who you are skyway FO- im watching you_LOL.... I have to say this guy knows the contract issues..

 

[fracpt]

HEY skywayFO can you tell me what will happen at my SWA now... -

 

[freightrash]

HEY skywayFO can you tell me what will happen at my SWA now... -

you will be ok for now. but as history keeps repeating, it will happen.

 

[F9 Driver]

The section of our scope below will put all F9 pilots on the street over time. That is not what I want at all but it is what would happen. C's will become replacement, if we get them. Any new bus will have to be flown by RAH pilots. At best F9 will stay at the current fleet. None of us should want that. We need to get the list merged and move on for all of our good. The whole deal is ********************ty for all of us, but it is the hand we have been given...We have to play it.



During the period of separate operations pilots on the
Chautauqua Pilots System Seniority List prior to the merger,
purchase, or acquisition shall operate all aircraft on hand at
the Company, all aircraft on firm order to the Company and
all aircraft acquired by the Company other than as a result of
the transaction after public announcement of the acquisition
in accordance with this Agreement, provided however that
nothing herein shall be construed to prevent fleet reductions
which are attributable to economic or other reasons and
conditions not related to the transaction, or the retirement of​

existing aircraft in the normal course of business.

And the portions of the other groups' CBAs that say the same with respect to them (us) mean what? RJET has entered into multiple transactions making them counter-party to several CBAs. The IBT/RAH CBA is but one, and has no more force than any other. I'd assert that it even has less relevance than the more recently affirmed FAPA CBA (inclusive of LOA 39). New 320s have come onto Frontier property since the transaction and are being flown by FAPA pilots. Why would that change? The C series falls under our CBA and will likely be flown by FAPA pilots - if it ever exists.

Anyway a breech of your Scope section is a minor grievance (not a major grievance that you are allowed to strike for) as defined by the RLA and NMB. Follow the grievance process when it happens. Odds are, given the IBT's track record, you'll lose that arbitration too.

 

[SkywayFO]

And the portions of the other groups' CBAs that say the same with respect to them (us) mean what? RJET has entered into multiple transactions making them counter-party to several CBAs. The IBT/RAH CBA is but one, and has no more force than any other. I'd assert that it even has less relevance than the more recently affirmed FAPA CBA (inclusive of LOA 39). New 320s have come onto Frontier property since the transaction and are being flown by FAPA pilots. Why would that change? The C series falls under our CBA and will likely be flown by FAPA pilots - if it ever exists.

Anyway a breech of your Scope section is a minor grievance (not a major grievance that you are allowed to strike for) as defined by the RLA and NMB. Follow the grievance process when it happens. Odds are, given the IBT's track record, you'll lose that arbitration too.

The "new" 320 you are speaking of were prior orders pre RAH merger. Once those dry up things get a little more interesting. My whole point with all of this is we have to get the new list, how ever it ends up, implimented and a joint contract done asap. We have to avoid the whipsaw, or we all are screwed. Lawyers and managment will be the only one getting anything out of all of this deal. None of us should want that. Think logically about things in a whipsaw who ends up with short stick? The more expensive party...So lets get things done and get our share, all of our share. One pilot group is the only way we have a chance period.

 

[F9 Driver]

The "new" 320 you are speaking of were prior orders pre RAH merger. Once those dry up things get a little more interesting. My whole point with all of this is we have to get the new list, how ever it ends up, implimented and a joint contract done asap. We have to avoid the whipsaw, or we all are screwed. Lawyers and managment will be the only one getting anything out of all of this deal. None of us should want that. Think logically about things in a whipsaw who ends up with short stick? The more expensive party...So lets get things done and get our share, all of our share. One pilot group is the only way we have a chance period.

Say what you will but, the 320s were bought by RJET after the transaction.

I don't know if you actually believe that multiple lists = whipsaw. If so, you are missing the enormous downside to a joint CBA for FAPA pilots. Single carrier status does nothing to prevent whipsaw. It actually sets the stage for the cheapest way for RJET *to whipsaw* us against one another. It just works out better for you.

How big a carrot do you think WH would need to dangle in front of the IBT EMB pilots to get 51% of the combined list to undo the QOL we've created over 15+ years at Frontier? IBT leadership's setting of expectations for your next contract has been non-existent at best. You think you are going to get Frontier / JetBlue 190 rates and work rules? From the starting point of your current CBA do you think you are going to get anything other than a POS regional contract? With IBT 357 negotiating against RJET? Not likely.

Keeping the work groups and contracts separate may leave a chance for whipsaw on the table, but single carrier and representation by this "Lord of the Flys" RAH IBT group assures that it will be done - to Frontier pilots by RAH IBT pilots. The only bright spot is that you can't vote away any protections (fences) established by the arbitrator in the SLI.

 

[runwayjockey]

Say what you will but, the 320s were bought by RJET after the transaction.

I don't know if you actually believe that multiple lists = whipsaw. If so, you are missing the enormous downside to a joint CBA for FAPA pilots. Single carrier status does nothing to prevent whipsaw. It actually sets the stage for the cheapest way for RJET *to whipsaw* us against one another. It just works out better for you.

How big a carrot do you think WH would need to dangle in front of the IBT EMB pilots to get 51% of the combined list to undo the QOL we've created over 15+ years at Frontier? IBT leadership's setting of expectations for your next contract has been non-existent at best. You think you are going to get Frontier / JetBlue 190 rates and work rules? From the starting point of your current CBA do you think you are going to get anything other than a POS regional contract? With IBT 357 negotiating against RJET? Not likely.

Keeping the work groups and contracts separate may leave a chance for whipsaw on the table, but single carrier and representation by this "Lord of the Flys" RAH IBT group assures that it will be done - to Frontier pilots by RAH IBT pilots. The only bright spot is that you can't vote away any protections (fences) established by the arbitrator in the SLI.

How do you Whipsaw single carrier status?

 

[F9 Driver]

Senior vs. junior. Airbus vs. EMB. Wide body vs. narrow body. Captains vs. FOs. MKE vs. DEN. "The senior guys screwed the junior guys" has been heard everywhere.

 

[runwayjockey]

Senior vs. junior. Airbus vs. EMB. Wide body vs. narrow body. Captains vs. FOs. MKE vs. DEN. "The senior guys screwed the junior guys" has been heard everywhere.

I wouldn't define that as a whipsaw.

YX vs. Rjet = whipsaw.

F9 vs. Rjet = whipsaw.

YX + F9 + Rjet = ? Maybe a $hitty deal for you but a better bargaining position against your employer.

 

[Megalops]

The point is we (f9) are whipsawed either way. One whipsaw may not be as bad as the other in our view.

 

[runwayjockey]

The point is we (f9) are whipsawed either way. One whipsaw may not be as bad as the other in our view.

I hope it works out for all of you guys. Best of luck!

 

[The Drizzle]

This thread started out fun. Now it's just garbage like the rest of RAH.

 

[Megalops]

Under one seniority list.... Right, and a union that will be all to willing to trade away pay rates and work rules for next to nothing, what will it take? Probably less than 2 bucks more an hour for IBT to pull us down instead of pulling themselves up to our level. I want no part of this out of control tilt-a-whirl being double clutched by a meth addled carney, to me the choice was clear but that path was not taken.

 

[F9 Driver]

I wouldn't define that as a whipsaw.

YX vs. Rjet = whipsaw.

F9 vs. Rjet = whipsaw.

YX + F9 + Rjet = ? Maybe a $hitty deal for you but a better bargaining position against your employer.

Define whipsaw?

 

[5-early]

......

 

[SkywayFO]

Say what you will but, the 320s were bought by RJET after the transaction.

I don't know if you actually believe that multiple lists = whipsaw. If so, you are missing the enormous downside to a joint CBA for FAPA pilots. Single carrier status does nothing to prevent whipsaw. It actually sets the stage for the cheapest way for RJET *to whipsaw* us against one another. It just works out better for you.

How big a carrot do you think WH would need to dangle in front of the IBT EMB pilots to get 51% of the combined list to undo the QOL we've created over 15+ years at Frontier? IBT leadership's setting of expectations for your next contract has been non-existent at best. You think you are going to get Frontier / JetBlue 190 rates and work rules? From the starting point of your current CBA do you think you are going to get anything other than a POS regional contract? With IBT 357 negotiating against RJET? Not likely.

Keeping the work groups and contracts separate may leave a chance for whipsaw on the table, but single carrier and representation by this "Lord of the Flys" RAH IBT group assures that it will be done - to Frontier pilots by RAH IBT pilots. The only bright spot is that you can't vote away any protections (fences) established by the arbitrator in the SLI.

In my mind the F9 contract is the starting point for negotiations. I want F9 plus work rules. And getting the pay numbers somewhere in the range of JetBlue is where we should be. If they can make a profit with those number why can't we? Skywest, Express Jet, and so on have about the same work rules as F9 so even at the regional level they can work. The folks on Purdue road wanted to be a LCC well with that comes paying like an LCC. I don't want to bring down the contract of F9 I want better that that for all of us. Together we can get that but if we stay split there will only be downward pressure on what ever F9 has. As a unified pilot group we have a much better chance of gettting what we want.

 

[F9 Driver]

In my mind the F9 contract is the starting point for negotiations. I want F9 plus work rules. And getting the pay numbers somewhere in the range of JetBlue is where we should be. If they can make a profit with those number why can't we? Skywest, Express Jet, and so on have about the same work rules as F9 so even at the regional level they can work. The folks on Purdue road wanted to be a LCC well with that comes paying like an LCC. I don't want to bring down the contract of F9 I want better that that for all of us. Together we can get that but if we stay split there will only be downward pressure on what ever F9 has. As a unified pilot group we have a much better chance of gettting what we want.

You've proved my point. I wish you the best of luck in your pursuits, but there isn't a snow ball's chance in he11 that you are going to go from zero to F9 in one contract. You aren't getting JetBlue 190 rates (roughly a 50% pay raise). If your EXCO had any experience they would know this and prepare their constituency for a more realistic outcome.

It's exactly this disconnect between expectations and reality that provides the opening management needs to convince the IBT pilots (who will quickly recall that they did want to work for a legacy, not be lifers at a commuter, when 2012 hits and legacies start hiring again en masse) that they need to take away from the LCC operation's career potential for short term gains.

 

[SkywayFO]

You are probably right if we are not one group. I'm not a guy that has to have the exact rates of JB but we need to get in the ball park. And for you own good it is in F9 pilots best interest to help and support us doing that. If we don't it will only hurt any chance you have of impoving anything for the F9 pilot group. Can you not see that relationship? Every pilot group piggy backs on others. Both up and down. It is the best interest of every airline pilot for us to get to the levels I spoke of in the last post. If not negative presure is out there for every group. And F9 will have the most since they will be in the classic grip of the whipsaw we all have been fitting against for years. The whipsaw is a big reason our contract is the way it is today. RAH managment wanted three different airlines so the could crack the whip. We gave a lot to stop it. What are you willing to give to stop it once it starts? You have to think beyond next year. I very well might leave here someday I don't want to leave the this place putting downward pressure on my life at airline what every it may be. Think big picture, long term outside your little piece of the world. Us all as one group is bad for every pilot in the industry.