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Republic/Frontier/Midwest SLI Arbitration?

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F9 Driver said:
Senior vs. junior. Airbus vs. EMB. Wide body vs. narrow body. Captains vs. FOs. MKE vs. DEN. "The senior guys screwed the junior guys" has been heard everywhere.
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I wouldn't define that as a whipsaw.

YX vs. Rjet = whipsaw.

F9 vs. Rjet = whipsaw.

YX + F9 + Rjet = ? Maybe a $hitty deal for you but a better bargaining position against your employer.
 
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Under one seniority list.... Right, and a union that will be all to willing to trade away pay rates and work rules for next to nothing, what will it take? Probably less than 2 bucks more an hour for IBT to pull us down instead of pulling themselves up to our level. I want no part of this out of control tilt-a-whirl being double clutched by a meth addled carney, to me the choice was clear but that path was not taken.
 
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runwayjockey said:
I wouldn't define that as a whipsaw.

YX vs. Rjet = whipsaw.

F9 vs. Rjet = whipsaw.

YX + F9 + Rjet = ? Maybe a $hitty deal for you but a better bargaining position against your employer.
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Define whipsaw?
 
F9 Driver said:
Say what you will but, the 320s were bought by RJET after the transaction.

I don't know if you actually believe that multiple lists = whipsaw. If so, you are missing the enormous downside to a joint CBA for FAPA pilots. Single carrier status does nothing to prevent whipsaw. It actually sets the stage for the cheapest way for RJET *to whipsaw* us against one another. It just works out better for you.

How big a carrot do you think WH would need to dangle in front of the IBT EMB pilots to get 51% of the combined list to undo the QOL we've created over 15+ years at Frontier? IBT leadership's setting of expectations for your next contract has been non-existent at best. You think you are going to get Frontier / JetBlue 190 rates and work rules? From the starting point of your current CBA do you think you are going to get anything other than a POS regional contract? With IBT 357 negotiating against RJET? Not likely.

Keeping the work groups and contracts separate may leave a chance for whipsaw on the table, but single carrier and representation by this "Lord of the Flys" RAH IBT group assures that it will be done - to Frontier pilots by RAH IBT pilots. The only bright spot is that you can't vote away any protections (fences) established by the arbitrator in the SLI.
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In my mind the F9 contract is the starting point for negotiations. I want F9 plus work rules. And getting the pay numbers somewhere in the range of JetBlue is where we should be. If they can make a profit with those number why can't we? Skywest, Express Jet, and so on have about the same work rules as F9 so even at the regional level they can work. The folks on Purdue road wanted to be a LCC well with that comes paying like an LCC. I don't want to bring down the contract of F9 I want better that that for all of us. Together we can get that but if we stay split there will only be downward pressure on what ever F9 has. As a unified pilot group we have a much better chance of gettting what we want.
 
SkywayFO said:
In my mind the F9 contract is the starting point for negotiations. I want F9 plus work rules. And getting the pay numbers somewhere in the range of JetBlue is where we should be. If they can make a profit with those number why can't we? Skywest, Express Jet, and so on have about the same work rules as F9 so even at the regional level they can work. The folks on Purdue road wanted to be a LCC well with that comes paying like an LCC. I don't want to bring down the contract of F9 I want better that that for all of us. Together we can get that but if we stay split there will only be downward pressure on what ever F9 has. As a unified pilot group we have a much better chance of gettting what we want.
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You've proved my point. I wish you the best of luck in your pursuits, but there isn't a snow ball's chance in he11 that you are going to go from zero to F9 in one contract. You aren't getting JetBlue 190 rates (roughly a 50% pay raise). If your EXCO had any experience they would know this and prepare their constituency for a more realistic outcome.

It's exactly this disconnect between expectations and reality that provides the opening management needs to convince the IBT pilots (who will quickly recall that they did want to work for a legacy, not be lifers at a commuter, when 2012 hits and legacies start hiring again en masse) that they need to take away from the LCC operation's career potential for short term gains.
 
You are probably right if we are not one group. I'm not a guy that has to have the exact rates of JB but we need to get in the ball park. And for you own good it is in F9 pilots best interest to help and support us doing that. If we don't it will only hurt any chance you have of impoving anything for the F9 pilot group. Can you not see that relationship? Every pilot group piggy backs on others. Both up and down. It is the best interest of every airline pilot for us to get to the levels I spoke of in the last post. If not negative presure is out there for every group. And F9 will have the most since they will be in the classic grip of the whipsaw we all have been fitting against for years. The whipsaw is a big reason our contract is the way it is today. RAH managment wanted three different airlines so the could crack the whip. We gave a lot to stop it. What are you willing to give to stop it once it starts? You have to think beyond next year. I very well might leave here someday I don't want to leave the this place putting downward pressure on my life at airline what every it may be. Think big picture, long term outside your little piece of the world. Us all as one group is bad for every pilot in the industry.
 
SkywayFO said:
You are probably right if we are not one group. I'm not a guy that has to have the exact rates of JB but we need to get in the ball park. And for you own good it is in F9 pilots best interest to help and support us doing that. If we don't it will only hurt any chance you have of impoving anything for the F9 pilot group. Can you not see that relationship? Every pilot group piggy backs on others. Both up and down. It is the best interest of every airline pilot for us to get to the levels I spoke of in the last post. If not negative presure is out there for every group. And F9 will have the most since they will be in the classic grip of the whipsaw we all have been fitting against for years. The whipsaw is a big reason our contract is the way it is today. RAH managment wanted three different airlines so the could crack the whip. We gave a lot to stop it. What are you willing to give to stop it once it starts? You have to think beyond next year. I very well might leave here someday I don't want to leave the this place putting downward pressure on my life at airline what every it may be. Think big picture, long term outside your little piece of the world. Us all as one group is bad for every pilot in the industry.
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Nice rhetoric, but it doesn't come close to passing the sniff test in the real world.

You're saying that RAH IBT pilots have the foresight to band together with all the other groups, forgo short term personal gains and make this a better place. But if we don't become a single carrier, these same selfless pilots will instantly abandon their principled stand, join the GoJet / Freedom Air scumbag mindset and participate in a whipsaw against FAPA. Am I understanding that right?

Read "Flying The Line" 1 and 2, talk to some of your FOs about how quickly they will be in the wind the moment the legacies start hiring, do some math on how many ADDITIONAL narrow body airplanes would have to be on property for any of your junior captains to fly one (hint - almost 200) and figure out how many of them will jump ship at the first opportunity and then come back with your flowery rhetoric if you still feel the same.

In the mean time we'll pay the cards we are dealt in the SLI. A separate strong CBA for the branded service is in our, and the industry's, best interest. You may have convinced yourself that you know whats best for FAPA pilots, or you may be unwittingly shilling for IBT, but I don't see where boosting up a commuter contract at mainline's expense has any positive bearing on the health of this industry.
 
i am a middle of the road fo at f9 and from what i am hearing i am going to be somewhere between number 1500-1700 on the new list. Why would i ever want the list to be implimented? If it is I will be leaving ASAP. then you guys can have fun flying the airbus for 30 grand and no work rules.
 
ultrarunner said:
Well, the F9 guys could have taken the SWA deal. Guess they felt something better would come along. Guess it has!
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What SWA deal? Contrary to FI babble, there wasn't an offer - only a few hours of a proffered staple with no intent to negotiate. SWA, not SWAPA, has made the commitment, which they refused to do with FAPA, to allow arbitration if SWAPA and FL ALPA can't agree. With Freund and Katz involved what could go wrong?

Educate yourself: http://www.bnet.com/blog/airline-bu...-southwest-8217s-efforts-to-buy-frontier/1042
 
ultrarunner said:
Ahh....so the F9 guys and girls had no chance of getting on board even if they had wanted to.....
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Realistically - No.

SWAPA had just had TA 1 fail after recommending that it ratify, and didn't have the political clout to offer FAPA any real negotiated SLI, with the backstop of arbitration, as our contract (Allegheny Mohawk 3 & 13) and the law (McCaskill Bond) provided.

For the Tranny's sake I hope they do now.
 
There always someone who got the boot at F9 and can't let it go....wonder who that is? BTW Is there STILL people who think that the WN-F9 Deal was 1) Legit and not a red herring? 2) Ideas exchanged in good faith? 3) FAPA should release the list of contingencies that would have nixed the Senority deal, but left an ATA-style pickover for assets at DEN....my favorite was $80 a barrel for a short while....Good luck Trannies, you'll just have to see the luv for yourselves.....
 
The arbitrator ran out toilet papper!!!
 
ultrarunner said:
So nothing happened yet?
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Best guess right now is late January. As a Frontier pilot I see this as only a positive thing. If arbitrator Eishen was to just use his original draft (which would of been a windfall for RAH pilots) then he would not of taken this long to issue his final award. Just my opinion, but I think and hope that his new award will resemble more of FAPA's original proposal. Anything less and Frontier will see huge attrition and will have to hire off the street until a new agreement is made IF STS is determined.
 
A320kid said:
Best guess right now is late January. As a Frontier pilot I see this as only a positive thing. If arbitrator Eishen was to just use his original draft (which would of been a windfall for RAH pilots) then he would not of taken this long to issue his final award. Just my opinion, but I think and hope that his new award will resemble more of FAPA's original proposal. Anything less and Frontier will see huge attrition and will have to hire off the street until a new agreement is made IF STS is determined.
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One can always hope, but there is quite a gulf between the rumored draft award and FAPA's final proposal. To call the rumors going around as a windfall are an understatement. This thing is going to redefine the term and Eichen will have worked his last SLI as an independent contractor, at least in aviation. Who in the world would hire him now that he has apparently gone off the reservation. He was very high on everyone's list due to his past consistency. This decision will also probably guarantee a panel of arbitrators in the future SLI's. The chances of multiple arbitrators losing their minds simultaneously should be less than the chances of one going rogue on his own.

Whatever happens, attrition at F9 may break the back of RAH's thin balance sheet.
 
Not to disagree with you A320 kid but it doesnt matter how the SLI goes, attrition in F9 and RAH is going to be out of control... I mean there FO's living this mess for JB!! good for them, maybe with the barrel of oil close to 100 may slow down thingsa bit but I'm telling you this is going to be a ghost town...Remember we are a regional/national airline and that's how management treats everyone!!
PS: be very carefull with the kool-aid from HQ, is to die for!!!
 
A320kid said:
Anything less and Frontier will see huge attrition and will have to hire off the street until a new agreement is made IF STS is determined.
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Huge attrition is exactly what RAH management wants. At this place pilots are a liability, commodity, disposable good. F9 is no different; trust me I've been at RAH long enough to know. With time you will learn how to read between the line of the biweekly newsletter, and it's already been said: LCC pilots are expected to move on to the majors. It is in Management's best interest for you to leave. Buddha is right, people are bailing out left and right. I don't think this place will become a ghost town because there is always younger guys looking at building time and a quick upgrade and I'm sure we will be flooded with apps when we resume hiring, but it is true this place is always going to be run like a regional. Passengers don't care about the product and as long as tickets are cheap they will buy. Management knows that.
 
Well, I hope all the guys who spook and run now are senior to me. It will make the 5 years between the SLI Award and any chance of actually implementing it, a lot better for me. ;-)
 

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